Lithium Versus Lead Acid for RV?s

Lithium Versus Lead Acid for RV?s

I have notice a number of topics in this forum, in 2016, related to Lithium batteries for RV?s.  In general the comments & opinions  I see are against installing lithium in RV?s.  What concerns me is that there is almost no supporting reference information given to support the reasons why lithium should not be installed in an RV.

I am not an expert and have no personal gain from someone buying or installing lithium batteries. What I did do, was to do a lot of research to become as well informed as I could to satisfy myself that lithium would be safe and provide for my electric needs in my RV.

Farther on down I will provide links to a number of well researched articles and experiences with lithium.  Also I will provide some detailed reference information for those wanting to become more informed. 

It is not my intent to ?sell? anyone on lithium.  I do want to provide good reliable information for people interested in finding out if lithium is for them or not. 

Lithium batteries in an RV is not for everyone.  If you only boondock or dry camp several days to a few weeks a year, lithium is probably not for you.  On the other hand if you do live off the grid for 50-200 days a year, then you really should consider upgrading to lithium. Best to do the upgrade when it comes time to replace your batteries or are planning on upgrading your RV from a single battery or a pair of 6V batteries to something with more capacity. 

I did research and then install a 400AH lithium battery pack along with 650 watts of solar on my 29? Class A in February 2016.  On our Alaska trip this summer we lived for 137 of 139 days without connecting to shore power.  In those 137 days we only ran our generator for 1.5 hours to recharge our batteries.  (We did run the generator, for about an hour, once a month for maintenance reasons) The only change we make when we are dry camping or boondocking is, we don?t run the air conditioner or cook with the convection oven.  We do use the microwave to heat things up though, as well as a toaster, TV, satellite TV receiver, computers, etc.  If you are interested in some info about our system here is a link to a topic about our system in another forum http://www.rvnetwork.com/index.php?showtopic=121818&hl=.

Some of my reasons for starting this topic is because of statements like these: 

? ?The Boeing Dreamliner battery fires are why I won?t use lithium?.  The lithium iron phosphate (also called LiFePO4 or LFP) batteries used in RV?s are a totally different chemistry than the batteries used in the airplanes. These LFP batteries are not prone to the runaway fires like ones in the airplanes.  The LFP battery systems RV?ers and boaters use have battery management systems to keep the batteries from being over discharged or over charged.

?  ?The Samsung device, so recently in the news, caught fire, so lithium is bad?  That totally ignores the phones with lithium batteries these same people carry.  Not to mention the millions upon millions of smart phones world wide with lithium batteries that don?t have a problem.

?  There is also the implication that lead acid batteries never explode or catch fire. That is incorrect.  Lead acid batteries have exploded and possibly caused fires.

? How easy it is to spread inaccurate information:
I also saw one totally incorrect statement from a person on this forum, that the charging voltage for lithium batteries is higher than for lead acid batteries.  From the vast number of postings from this person, I am sure they are considered to be an expert.  I am sure they are, just maybe not on lithium batteries. 

For the LFP batteries, used in RV?s, that is totally incorrect.  In fact the opposite is true.  The 12V LFP battery packs must not be charged above 14.4V (most recommend 14.2V or less).  Lead Acid batteries should be bulk charged at 14.6 to 14.8V. 

While it is correct that some lithium battery cells require a higher charge voltage than the lead acid, these lithium battery cells are not the LFP battery cells used in RV?s.

I bring this up no to criticize but to try to emphasize that if you don?t become well informed and educated about a topic, incorrect info can easily be spread.


LINKS TO LOTS OF GREAT DETAILED INFORMATION:

?  Technomadia?s 5 years of experience of using Lithium: http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/
They also have these articles on why they chose Lithium and other experiences with lithium. 
Promise of Lithium #1: Lead Acid Battery Downsides: http://www.technomadia.com/2011/10/lithium-update-lead-acid-downsides/
Promise of Lithium #2: Lithium Ion Battery Advantages: http://www.technomadia.com/2011/10/lithium-update-2-the-promise-of-lithium-rv-batteries/
Promise of Lithium #3: Cost Analysis (including our part list): http://www.technomadia.com/2011/11/lithium-update-3-lithium-battery-cost/
?  Wheelingit?s 4 part series on their upgrade from lead acid to lithium
Wheelingit Lithium part 1:  http://wheelingit.us/2016/02/24/the-big-beastly-solarbattery-upgrade-part-i-why/
Wheelingit Lithium part 2 : http://wheelingit.us/2010/12/29/rv-solar-part-ii-the-equipment/
Wheelingit Lithium part 3 : http://wheelingit.us/2010/12/31/rv-solar-part-iii-the-installation/
The Install Wheelingit Lithium part 4 Tilting & Winter :  http://wheelingit.us/2011/11/15/rv-solar-part-iv-panel-tilting-winter-solar-optimization/

? Links to some technical info
Note: you can read for hours about lithium in the following links.
http://www.pbase.com...ifepo4_on_boats: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/lifepo4_on_boats  While written for the boating community, this is a great review of the pros & cons of Lithium batteries and their operation.
A 322 page topic from a boating forum here : http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/lifepo4-batteries-discussion-thread-for-those-using-them-as-house-banks-65069.html  Lots of great discussion of the actual used of LFP batteries. Also in that topic are links to two more topics of interest about LFP batteries.
The following links go to info found on BatteryUniversity.com. Lots of great info on this website. However the info is generally not always specifically about the LFP batteries we use in RV's or boats.
? http://batteryuniver..._of_lithium_ion
? http://batteryuniver...based_batteries
? http://batteryuniver...m_ion_batteries Note, the voltages referenced in this link are for Lithium Cobalt batteries not the LFP batteries. However I believe the principles are the same.
? http://batteryuniver...based_batteries How do Lithium Ion batteries work.
? http://batteryuniver...t_is_the_c_rate Many articles refer to charging ?C? rate. Simply put, if a battery is 100AH and the charge rate is 100 amps the the charge rate is 1C.

Hello AStravelers,

Good post. We're considering Lithium batteries for our first RV (and we do plan on boondocking a lot), so I've been researching the matter and have read most of the material you listed, but some of the links were new to me; thanks for posting them.

Also, I'd like to point out that LFP/LiFePO4 isn't the be-all/end-all of lithium batteries for RVs: there's a couple of folks successfully using Chevy Volt lithium battery modules (which have a  LiMnO4/LiNiO2 chemistry and can be had for much higher capacity/much less dollars than LFP/LiFePO4) on RVs:

http://rvnerds.com/2016/01/18/new-project-installation-of-a-new-lithium-ion-house-battery-bank/
http://montana3611rl.blogspot.com.br/2016/02/chevy-volt-lithium-battery-packs-for-my.html

These Chevy-Volt-battery-based solutions aren't as mature as the more mainstream LFP/LiFePO4 setups, and (as can be attested by reading the blog posts above) require a lot of improvising and DIYving, so they may not be for everyone ATM, but I think they hold a lot of promise in the not-so-distant future (say, one year from now).

Cheers,
--
  Vall.

Dear Al & Sharon

Great post X2.  I also have been dismayed by the unsupported comments about lithium use and very much appreciate the effort you have put forth to provide more factual info.  I have decided that lithium is the only way to go for me when I purchase a TT for fulltime use with lots of off-grid time.  One aspect important for me is that the charge profile on lead acid batteries requires lots of charging hours to get that last amount of energy in to achieve 100%, which I understand is necessary for best battery performance.  If you are on shore power often, then that requirement is easily met.  But if you rely on a generator as your solar backup, it seems totally impractical to have to run it 6 - 8 hours to get the last 20% of charge.  Of course one could simply ignore the 100% and just replace batteries more often.  Lithium avoids the need for the long charging. 

Lithium isn't perfect, but then AGMs and LAs aren't either.  The "Technomadia" link you posted includes a Nov 2016 one hour video that points out problems both they and another full-timing couple have encountered with their solar/lithium set-ups and how they have adjusted. 

I'm eagerly awaiting to meet with a sage engineer, TT owner, friend to nail down the wiring and component placement needs for the system I envision as this relates directly to the type of trailer I will purchase -- at least I think it does at this point.  We'll see.

Thank you for your post.

Linda

Excellent post - many thanks for compiling it!

For me its the cost.    89$ for a 100ah lead battery vs 800$-1200$ for a lithium battery of equivet storage