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Author Topic: 6 ----> 24 volts  (Read 3841 times)

xrated

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2017, 02:32:14 AM »
If you look at the very bottom of the photo.....right side, directly below the negative battery terminal, you can just see the tip of the black probe being pushed into the end of a red cable that goes to the Positive battery post at the top right.  Now look at the meter....the black lead is plugged into the voltage lead of the meter.  That makes the red lead from the meter to be plugged into the common and that lead will end up at the negative post of the battery array.  The meter doesn't care what color the leads are, all it's looking for is a positive or negative voltage reading with respect to which lead is on which terminal.....thus the correct voltage reading, but visually, you would think something is wrong because of the meter lead color.
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2017, 05:00:23 PM »
Can I do the attached, and would the result be 1840AH @ 24v?

edit: larger image: http://imgur.com/a/S923b
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 05:02:51 PM by Desert_Rat »

Lou Schneider

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2017, 05:15:40 PM »
Series connections add voltage, parallel connections add amp-hours.

I see (4) parallel connected rows of (3) 6 volt batteries in series.  That gives 18 volts per string, not 24 volts.  You need (4) 6 volt batteries in series for 24 volts.

Each series string stores 220 amp-hours, the same as a single battery.

If you reconfigure for (4) batteries in series per row, you'll have 24 volts with (3) rows in parallel at 220 amp-hours each.  This is 660 amp-hours total storage.



« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 05:21:47 PM by Lou Schneider »

Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2017, 05:50:07 PM »
Yeah, I see that now. And it's how I presently am wired up.

just trying to get more AH. Any ideas? Can I connect 3 batteries in parallel, then connect 4 of those in series or does it not work that way?

SeilerBird

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2017, 05:54:02 PM »
The only way to get more AH is by adding more batteries.
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2017, 06:06:01 PM »
Can't do that, I'm stuffed to the gills as it is. just appears to me (theoretically) that if 2 batteries in series make one bigger battery, why can't I connect those bigger batteries in parallel to get more AH? I guess the answer to that is I'm nuts, theoretically.

Lou Schneider

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2017, 09:28:45 PM »
Amp-hours are only half the story - Amperage x Voltage equals power.

200 amp-hours at 24 volts is 4800 watt-hours ... twice as much power as 200 amp-hours at 12 volts.

SeilerBird

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2017, 10:10:33 PM »
Can't do that, I'm stuffed to the gills as it is. just appears to me (theoretically) that if 2 batteries in series make one bigger battery, why can't I connect those bigger batteries in parallel to get more AH? I guess the answer to that is I'm nuts, theoretically.
Two batteries in series doubles the voltage. Two batteries in parallel doubles the amperage. But either way you still are getting the same amount of wattage or amp hours. No magic tricks.
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2017, 08:33:19 AM »
Amp-hours are only half the story - Amperage x Voltage equals power.

200 amp-hours at 24 volts is 4800 watt-hours ... twice as much power as 200 amp-hours at 12 volts.

For sure. But I've been looking into this series/parallel connect and it seems to challenge ohms law? Example attached. Source is indicating that 5040w of energy (8*6v*105a) can be wired to create 7440 (24v*310a) of energy with this series/parallel connect.

prfcdoc

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »
That looks like 210 Ah to me. =5040w
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2017, 09:19:53 AM »
I thought the same - a typo. But the source does have another parallel lead connected. My connect is attached.

BTW, source: http://solarcity.business/Xwes/deep-cycle-battery-basics/
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 09:38:25 AM by Desert_Rat »

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2017, 09:57:31 AM »
Once that error in the diagram is corrected (310AH vs 210 AH), all the arithmetic works and Ohms Law is safe.

Quote
just appears to me (theoretically) that if 2 batteries in series make one bigger battery, why can't I connect those bigger batteries in parallel to get more AH?

You can, but that's the "more batteries" that Seilerbird stated. In your case, more sets of 4 batteries, since you have a 24v system. So you have these sets of 4x6v batteries that produce 230AH @ 24v, and you can parallel as many sets as you have room for and bump the AH by 230 for each full set.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 10:02:20 AM by Gary [ RVer Emeritus] »
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2017, 10:45:25 AM »
What do you think of the images above your response. Why do you suppose the source has those 2 extra parallel leads and is claiming more AH from it?

"Once that error in the diagram is corrected (310AH vs 210 AH), all the arithmetic works and Ohms Law is safe"
I missed that on first read of your response. I agree.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 11:10:01 AM by Desert_Rat »

markbarendt

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2017, 10:52:48 AM »
What do you think of the images above your response. Why do you suppose the source has those 2 extra parallel leads and is claiming more AH from it?

The green lines add nothing except redundancy and don't change the math.

Each battery only has 2 terminals, the total amount of energy available from those terminals is limited absolutely by that fact. Regardless of how many ways you wire it, that is an absolute limit.

Any one system can pull 100%, if there are 2 systems attached the systems have to share that 100%, 50/50, 90/10 or whatever.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 11:02:44 AM by markbarendt »

Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2017, 11:07:27 AM »
So you think the source's claim of 310 ah is a typo. I think that makes more sense but I'd still like to know why the 2 parallel leads are added. What's the point of that?

markbarendt

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2017, 11:50:46 AM »
Electricity is like black magic for the untrained, the extra leads are a form of wishful thinking.

prfcdoc

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2017, 01:15:41 PM »
Electricity is like black magic for the untrained, the extra leads are a form of wishful thinking.
Yes sir! My thought as well.
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2017, 02:50:52 PM »
Electricity is like black magic for the untrained, the extra leads are a form of wishful thinking.

With that I'll assume you mean the source believes the bank is better balanced by doing it in that manner. The source is theoretically correct but I agree that it seems overly redundant.

markbarendt

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2017, 03:04:39 PM »
With that I'll assume you mean the source believes the bank is better balanced by doing it in that manner. The source is theoretically correct but I agree that it seems overly redundant.
No, the green drawn in wires do nothing extra. Zero, zip, zilch, nada, squat... The green wires have no value and should not be used IMO.

The source is not correct.

markbarendt

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2017, 03:20:45 PM »
In this picture each bank of 4 batteries provides a total potential of 230ah at 24 volts, that's it. The green lines change absolutely nothing.

3 banksx230ah at 24volts=690ah at 24 volts all in with all 3 banks.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 03:24:01 PM by markbarendt »

markbarendt

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2017, 08:15:10 AM »
One way to think of "a battery bank wired in series" is as "a single battery".

Bear with me Desert_Rat.

The batteries you are using are made up of smaller 2-volt batteries (cells).

To build a 6-volt battery one simply puts three 2-volt batteries (cells) in a box and then wire them in series.

A 12 volt battery can be built in the same manner by simply putting six 2-volt batteries (cells) together, a 24-volt battery is a collection of twelve 2-volt batteries (cells) wired in series.

The number of boxes the 2-volt batteries (cells) are housed in is irrelevant.

Whether the bank is wired internally or externally is irrelevant.

Any bank that is wired in series effectively acts as a single battery.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:27:09 PM by markbarendt »

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2017, 09:57:17 AM »
About the most you can say for the 4 green wires is that they may be shorter than the blacks & reds that make the same electrical connection. Maybe that helps balance the loading by providing a slightly lower resistance alternate path, but that's true only if the Reds & Blacks are undersize or just marginal in size.
Gary
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Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2017, 07:55:34 AM »
"Good morning Robert,

Thank you for the email, I can confirm that indeed we have made a typing error on the website which we will fix right away. The correct value should be 210Ah and not 310Ah as indicated on the website. I personally thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I do hope that the rest of the website content is of great value to you Robert and please feel free to alert me to any other discrepancies you may find on the website, it will be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards"


Artcele

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2017, 06:19:37 AM »
Your schematic shows a 4 in serie first, then a 3 in parallel, 3S4P.
There is also the 3 in parallel first, then 4 in serie, 4S3P.
In your 3SP4, take in account that if any of the battery/cell fails, the whole string in this 4S will be faulty, not supplying anymore, turning into 2S4P
In a 4S3P, if a battery fails in a 3P, the impact is less, the 2 others in the 3P go on supplying.
(Batteries are the same model, considering having the same voltage/SOC in any 3P)

Also, you could add diode insulation and fault protection, by adding diodes (good amperage) isolating the 4 (3S4P), or the 3 (4S3P), for both charging and discharging. Not very costly.
The advise is also to add fuses (good amperage) in the battery to converter, unless already in the converter setup.

If you stick with your 3S4P schematic, the batteries voltage in any string can vary independently of each other, and in the long run, it is always safe to monitor the voltage of each battery, even with a very simple battery monitor.

The green lines are outlining the idea of a "bus bar" type connection, it is better being shorter, linking each string. The negative/black line then just need one connection to this green "bus bar".


Desert_Rat

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Re: 6 ----> 24 volts
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2017, 08:07:18 PM »

 

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