Converter/charger question

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Dougie Brown

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Nov 16, 2007
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Firstly, a Happy New Year to everyone. Here's to health, happiness and most of all, peace.

The coach and car have been stored under cover and on shore power for the last 9 months for charging.  The coach was hooked straight into the 30A 120V and the car was charged with its own float charger, drawing its power from an external outlet on the coach. There is a Trik-L-Charger fitted and the coach is configured with 2 x house batteries which are physically located alongside the engine battery.

When we flew in a couple of days ago & got to the store, the 120V outlets on the coach were working (so the car battery was fully charged) but the house and coach batteries were dead as a doornail. The 3-phase (Powermax PM3B-45) converter was intermittently outputting between 2V & 4V which clearly was the cause of the issue.

I got jump-started, got to the campground, removed the converter and attached a 2/10/50A Harbor Freight charger directly onto the house batteries, set at 2A trickle. 48 hours later, they have charged to 11.8V and are holding their charge. It remains to be seen whether either has suffered damage.

The disconnected heavy-duty +/- wires running from the (removed) converter read exactly 12.00V without the temporary Harbor Freight charger connected to the batteries.

The engine battery has rejuvenated via the Trik-L-Charger and is now being charged on its own and seems to be ok.

I have ordered a new Powermax 75A 3-phase to replace the 45A one which should be here this week.  Meantime, I'll leave the temporary charger disconnected until or unless the house batteries start dying.

HOWEVER - my main concern is the green LED amperage display (showing the 120V current being used) inside the coach. It's not working which makes sense to me as I assume it requires 12V from the converter to operate the actual display (albeit the display shows 120V current).  To test this, I briefly connected the temporary charger to the now-disconnected heavy-duty converter wires at a 2A setting and checked the LED display. It still did not work.

Is it likely I'm worrying unnecessarily about the display and it will pick up once the new converter is fitted?  Also, what governs the exact 12.00V voltage on the heavy-duty wires which run from the converter?  The house batteries are nearer 11V.

Thanks,

Dougie.

Edit by staff: changed message icon to topic solved
 
Hello,

Perhaps, you should start by checking your batteries. Which battery models (house/engine) you have? how old?
If too old, you should have to get brand new ones.

You don't mention your inverter. Which inverter you have? (Input 12V house batteries > Output 120V).
Your Powermax PM3-XX seems to be "just" a 12V battery charger(s) with 3 stages (of charge).

Did you run all these tests while connected to the shoreline?
Very often (more than often), a power switch routes the shoreline 120V to the 120V bus of your house. In this state, the inverter (12V house bats > 120V house) is "off", preventing you from checking that the inverter is correctly outputting 120V.

Your LED display is probably powered by the inverter 120V line (and not the house 120V line), this could explain why it does not work.
120V amperage display is useful to monitor your 120v mains load, while relying on battery/inverter, to avoid inverter current overload.
In order to assess your battery+inverter system (considering your bats are nominal, not dead), you could disconnect the shoreline. Normally, this would switch the inverter on (Batteries12V->Inverter->House120V).

With disconnected batteries, your 12V measure is the charger output voltage reading, governed by the charger electronics.
If your batteries are reading 11V disconnected, before any discharge and after having been charged (apparently) at nominal charge, this is not a good indication of battery health.

I just tried to guess your setup based on your message and to analyze, lacking some details to be really accurate.
 
The Powerline EMS display does need 12v power, but it should be getting it from the general house 12v supply, i.e. battery power should be sufficient. It reads the voltage on the hot & neutral wire and amps on neutral wire on the 120v line from the shore/genset transfer switch to the breaker panel and should show status based on that. My first step would be to reset the EMS by removing 12v power from it for 15-20 seconds and then reconnecting. That usually cures any transient ills.  Another test you could do would be to fire up the genset and see if the EMS shows GEN status like it should.

I don't know why your old converter shows 12.0v, but you already established it is not functional, so I wouldn't worry much unless the replacement does the same thing.
 
For all practical purposes, consider your battery banks permanently damaged. I doubt if they will ever recover. Start out with a good three-stage charger and new matched batteries.
 
Dougie Brown said:
I don't have an inverter, nor did I mention one??
Sorry. I assumed your 120v came from an inverter. How are you producing your 120v mains when not on shoreline?

If I may, the products you bought are okay for RC model and hobby,  but not made for a coach.
Don't expect to rebirth your batteries, if they are old, damaged or both.
As John mentioned it, extending my first advice, you should invest in a serious charger and good quality batteries, if you wish to have a reliable and lasting electric supply.
A small inverter, even as a backup, can be useful in a coach.
 
Gary [RVer Emeritus] said:
The Powerline EMS display does need 12v power, but it should be getting it from the general house 12v supply, i.e. battery power should be sufficient. It reads the voltage on the hot & neutral wire and amps on neutral wire on the 120v line from the shore/genset transfer switch to the breaker panel and should show status based on that. My first step would be to reset the EMS by removing 12v power from it for 15-20 seconds and then reconnecting. That usually cures any transient ills.  Another test you could do would be to fire up the genset and see if the EMS shows GEN status like it should.

I don't know why your old converter shows 12.0v, but you already established it is not functional, so I wouldn't worry much unless the replacement does the same thing.

Thanks for all that, Gary. I'll be doing the checks this morning. I've not expressed myself clearly about the 12.00V reading as per your reply's last paragraph (I did try to word it carefully but jet-lag kept interfering). It's the return voltage on what were the two +/- feed wires in the coach which is showing exactly 12.00v.  The converter itself is dead and removed. I'm wary of exact numbers like 12.00 and would like to know how that's happening despite the batteries producing less than 12v.
 
I'm still not clear on what those two wires are if the converter has been physically removed. Without seeing the actual wiring, it's hard to visualize.

The battery bank should have a negative cable to the chassis ground and the positive to a 12v distribution bus, but there is probably other stuff in between on the Plus side, e.g. battery disconnect relay, etc.  So I'm not at all clear on where you are reading 12.0v if not adjacent to the battery bank itself. 0.2v isn't much difference, though, and the lower reading could be explained by a bit of extra resistance at one measurement point & time.  Or if you used two different meters...

I tried to look at the 2000 Adventurer wiring diagrams this morning, but the Winnie site wasn't cooperative.  :'(
 
Artcele said:
Sorry. I assumed your 120v came from an inverter. How are you producing your 120v mains when not on shoreline?
I try never to assume anything. I am not producing 120v when not on shoreline.

[quote author=Artcele]
If I may, the products you bought are okay for RC model and hobby,  but not made for a coach.
Don't expect to rebirth your batteries, if they are old, damaged or both.
As John mentioned it, extending my first advice, you should invest in a serious charger and good quality batteries, if you wish to have a reliable and lasting electric supply.
A small inverter, even as a backup, can be useful in a coach.[/quote]

Again, I've no idea why you think a 75amp 3-phase converter is only suitable for a RC model. Look up Powermax Boondocker converter/chargers. I have no expectations about my batteries; I stated that I'll see how they go after charging pending delivery of the replacement converter and that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm under no illusions though.  As far as an inverter goes, I do have a good one but it doesn't enter into the equation here. I'm on shoreline 120v power and need 12v, not the other way around.

I appreciate your taking the time to input. I think though that you've not grasped the issues which makes it pretty confusing.
 
Gary [RVer Emeritus] said:
I'm still not clear on what those two wires are if the converter has been physically removed. Without seeing the actual wiring, it's hard to visualize.

The battery bank should have a negative cable to the chassis ground and the positive to a 12v distribution bus, but there is probably other stuff in between on the Plus side, e.g. battery disconnect relay, etc.  So I'm not at all clear on where you are reading 12.0v if not adjacent to the battery bank itself. 0.2v isn't much difference, though, and the lower reading could be explained by a bit of extra resistance at one measurement point & time.  Or if you used two different meters...

OK, I'll try again.? Consider the converter installed and fully functioning. 120v goes in one end and 12v comes out the other after you connect the coach 12v supply to the output terminals. Now consider the converter is disconnected from both ends and removed. What you're left with is the pair of wires which were connected to the +/- output terminals.  It's those wires which are reading exactly 12.00v which ultimately can only be coming from the batteries, although the batteries are operating at (say) 11v.  I have checked with two meters - same result.
 
Some of your terminology may be somewhat confusing. You refer to the converter as a 3 phase converter rather than a 3 stage converter. You mention a Trik-L-Charger on the chassis battery. Is it a trickle charger or a Trik-L-Start. If it is a Trik-L-Start, that may be the source of your 12 volts.

I would bet almost any thing that your house batteries are dead.
 
John Hilley said:
Some of your terminology may be somewhat confusing. You refer to the converter as a 3 phase converter rather than a 3 stage converter. You mention a Trik-L-Charger on the chassis battery. Is it a trickle charger or a Trik-L-Start. If it is a Trik-L-Start, that may be the source of your 12 volts.

I would bet almost any thing that your house batteries are dead.

Yep, you're right and I stand corrected, thanks. Trick-L-Start, and it is a 3 stage converter.
 
John Hilley said:
...your house batteries are dead.
Dougie Brown said:
...I try never to assume anything...

Never?  :)  I think that you assume that your batteries are okay.
You should rather try to assess your batteries.
 
Gary [RVer Emeritus] said:
My first step would be to reset the EMS by removing 12v power from it for 15-20 seconds and then reconnecting. That usually cures any transient ills.  Another test you could do would be to fire up the genset and see if the EMS shows GEN status like it should.

Disconnecting and reconnecting power to the EMS did nothing. I have yet to find info for the 4-wire multiplug supply to check it, so I'll be calling Intellitec in the morning. They apparently are good at troubleshooting with you.  The genset can't be fired up until I get a can full of gas as I'm low in the main tank.
 
Best practice for storage (excerpt from Vectra manual):

PREPARING VEHICLE FOR STORAGE
5. Fully charge the batteries. Batteries must have at least 80% charge to survive freezing temperatures and long period of nonuse.
We recommend that you connect a battery charger or plug in the shoreline once a month during long-term storage periods to maintain battery charge and to avoid sulfating.
NOTE: We do not recommend leaving the shoreline plugged in continuously during storage periods because the batteries can
lose electrolytic fluids and become damaged from continuous charging without periodic use.
We recommend following regular battery inspection and maintenance, especially in cold weather.


BATTERY STORAGE AND MAINTENANCE
Lead acid type batteries are electro-chemical devices for storing and releasing electrical charge. As such, they are simply an electrical reservoir, not an electrical source.
As soon as energy is removed from the battery, it should be replaced by the engine alternator or the RV converter system.
If a battery sits unused for 30 days or more, especially during warm weather, it can develop a deposit of sulfate crystals on the metal plates inside the battery. This condition is called ?sulfating?, and prevents the battery from either releasing or accepting a charge. If this condition occurs, the battery must be replaced.

> For optimal health and durability, lead batteries need alternating charge then discharge, and again, in an endless cycle.

 

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Do you have a small solar charger? That could be the source of a extra voltage. But I agree, quite odd that you are effectively reading 12.0 volts at one end of a wire, and 11.0 at the other end. A voltage drop could indicate a connection problem, but you have a voltage rise, odd.
 
Update. Gary kindly sent me a .pdf EMS manual which enabled me to test the control module (located behind the main breaker panel by the steps). It tests out ok as far as 120V and 12V power goes, but it still doesn't work. I finally had a conversation with the Intellitec technician who - after I gave him the board number - stopped me in my tracks and said if it had been subjected to low voltage e.g. 2/3v, it would be fried. According to him, low voltage can be worse than high voltage on that board which in any case is obsolete.  The temporary absence of the converter has no bearing as all the board needs is any 12v supply, which I have in the form of the battery charger connected to the house batteries which are now reading 13.1v after several days on a 2A trickle charge.

The question of whether the two house batteries are still fit for purpose remains to be seen, but I intend to monitor them after fitting the new converter when it arrives on Friday.

There is no direct replacement board for my 00-00633-000. The replacement board (00-00911-000) also needs a new display panel, connectors and sensor totalling (a discounted) $450 from Intellitec.  As always, I took a trawl through eBay before ordering and was pretty happy to find a guy selling two brand new unused 633 boards in their packaging for $130 each or best offer. He accepted $100 so it's on its way. ?

Thanks for the solar panel suggestions too. I completely forgot I had one and it does in fact read exactly 12.00v so that solves that mystery.

Fingers crossed I'll be back operational in the next week. Thanks again.

Dougie.
 
The new 75A converter arrived today and is fitted. All batteries read exactly as they should. They've held their charge and have settled at 13.6V after a brief 14.4V boost from the converter.  The EMS board arrives Monday.
 
Actually, the EMS board arrived today (Friday) ahead of schedule. *SUCCESS* A 15 minute job and all is well again. ? Thanks for all the contributions, as ever.

Dougie.
 

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