Please Help? Re what van I'd need to tow a 7000-lb. GVWR trailer

I'm hoping someone can help me with tow vehicle advice. 

I'm considering a 26-ft. Travel Trailer (no slides) with a GVWR of 7,000 lbs. and the UVW is about 4500 lbs. without freshwater or propane.  The trailer would be towed 2x/year between southern US and Southern Maine, and the reason I included UVW is that the TT's contents could be distributed partially into van for long haul travel, if that helps. 

The towing van would also serve as "my car" the rest of the time.  I do not need, or particularly want, seats in it other than driver's and passenger's because I would like it to be a van that I can eventually have someone insulate and panel, with a suitable floor, for VERY minimalist outfitting in order to take side camping trips without having to haul the 26-ft. trailer.  Wish list:  If it didn't hurt mileage or cost a ton more, one I could stand up in, but I think that's pushing my luck. 

There are passenger vans and cargo vans and I don't know whether one is better for hauling than the other.  In fact, I know next to nothing about them, only that a van would be my strongly preferred tow vehicle rather than a truck.  I also don't know beans about diesel vs. gas, only that I've heard that when emissions became an issue, diesels did not play well with the emissions modifications, and that repairs are expensive, and may not perform well in really cold weather (and I would be driving it there in December). But that's all I know or think I know. 

Can anyone suggest a particular van I should look at?  I would be looking for a used one, ideally under $20K (and if possible, as far under that as possible) but if not, then as close as I could stay to that number.  Reliability is very important to me. 

Thanks very much in advance to anyone who can give me guidance. 

You need a van that has a Max Tow rating somewhat above 7000 lbs, preferably about 8000 or higher. That gives you capacity to tow the trailer and also have passengers and gear in the van - or the extra weight of your future modifications.

That's well into in the full size van or SUV territory, not a minivan or crossover type vehicle. Passenger vs cargo van is a layout and trim designation and not tow rating; you have to look at the capacity numbers for whatever particular model and configuration you like.

You should be looking at Chevy Express, Ford E350/E450, or Nissan NV.  I don't think any of the Ford Transit or RAM Promaster van configurations run to even 7000 lbs towing. Check the Ford, GM/Chevy, etc. Towing Guides for specifics on the configurations that would work for you.

http://www.fleet.ford.com/towing-guides/
http://www.gmc.com/trailering-towing.html

Trailer Life magazine also publishes a good towing guide: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

Thank you Gary.  I was also told a 2500 would work (GMC or whatever) but I'd like opinions on that if possible.  And also hoping to find some specific recommendations as to brand, type, year, etc. since some years one vehicle might be duddy, another year's model, another one might.  But this is a great place to start and I MUCH appreciate your including the links!  Thank you. 

Start browsing that Trailer Life tow guide that Gary posted, and you'll see what those van models "stack up" as far as towing capacities go.  Cargo vans (or larger 9-12 passenger vans) often have a slightly higher towing numbers than the luxury conversion vans, because they don't have as many options (nicer seats, trim, cabinets, entertainment, etc.) that all have weight to them.  The multi-passenger vans will have a bunch of bench seats (extra weight) that you don't need though, so it sounds like you are headed for a cargo van.  Then you can build it up (or not) however you want.

Terminology wise, 2500 (3/4 ton) or 3500 (1 ton) are the designations that Chevy/GMC and Dodge use for their truck chassis vehicles.  Ford uses 250 and 350 to mean the same thing... trucks are letter "F" (i.e. F-250 or F-350) and vans are letter "E" (E-250 or E-350).  Most trucks and vans you see on the road today are 1500's or 150's (1/2 ton), but you will likely need something heavier duty to tow 7000# or more.

I don't think you'd have any need for a diesel vehicle, to tow a trailer 2x per year.  Gas should be fine, and there will be more of them on the gently used market to choose from.

The UVW of the trailer is a misleading figure, especially since you mentioned all the cargo would be moved to the van.  That cargo weight still counts as being "towed" inside the van, and subtracts just the same from the overall tow capacity.  The limitations are usually on the engine/transmission/cooling/brakes/wheels, and not on the bumper hitch itself... for a heavy duty vehicle already equipped with the appropriate hitch (Class 4 or 5), that is.  In other words, stick with the GVWR of the trailer unless you know the rig + your stuff will weigh substantially less.

Thank you Scott-
I knew cargo in van counts against tow weight, and someone suggested looking for a tow capacity of closer to 10K pounds if the GVWR was 7K pounds (she said to assume I'd use the whole 7K pounds). 

I'm hoping to get opinions on preferences for GMC Savannah vs. Ford, and I'm still confused whether Chevy and GMC are the same by different names or two different vehicles by a parent/child company relationship or ??.  That person said she prefers Fords, my mechanic said they tend to be weaker built, etc. 

Thanks if you can shed light on those things, and I do understand it's opinion, but if you do have a preference, could you briefly include why you prefer one over the other?  All donated info is much appreciated.

I am going to go to that link in the morning when my brain is fresh, I appreciate that it was offered.  ;-)

ETA:  Just glanced at the tow guides and they look terrific, thanks again Gary!

Welcome to the Forum!

Very good advise above.

The big difference between a 1500 series, 2500 series and 3500 series van is the heavier suspension, brakes, axles, tires, etc.  This increases the weight the van can carry, aka Payload.

For newer vans, 2009 and newer, there is a yellow label on the driver door B pillar which gives you the max capacity as configured as it left the factory.  This number must be large enough to cover all passengers and cargo in the van, plus 80# for a WD hitch plus the hitch weight of the camper - 10% - 12% of trailer GVWR.

The heavier vans will have higher payloads, thus can carry more TT.

Cargo in the van must be subtracted from the payload pound for pound.  Cargo properly distributed in the TT is carried 90% on the TT wheels and only 10% on the hitch.  You must stay below TT  GVWR, but you can increase capacity by filling the TT first.

If you get a passenger van and remove the seats (weight), this weight can be added to Payload.  When you get it finished inside, the weight of all additions must be subtracted from Payload.

The tow ratings Gary mentioned are usually of minimal value, but in your case, it can help.  This number assumes a BASE model, no options and (before 2015) no passengers.  I would still subtract 1000# from this number to estimate the max TT weight, but the use you describe lines up with this calculation.

Scott is right about a gas engine.  Diesel vans are hard to find, and certainly not needed for your application.

Continue getting educated and enjoy the search!

The Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge (and add vs. Nissan vs. Toyota these days) is a neverending dispute... you ought to buy whichever one you (or your regular mechanic) are most comfortable with... or the one you can find in the best condition, for the best price!  Personally I'm a GM guy, but that's mostly because I've owned more of them over the years and am most familiar with them.  My motorhome was on a Ford chassis and I had no particular "Ford problems" with it... my brother-in-law prefers Fords, having been a longtime Mustang owner and owned two large Ford multi-passenger vans (the current one used to pull their RV trailer and horse trailers).  One of my grandpas was a "Chrysler man" because he thought Chrysler/Dodge were the best built vehicles.  So, go figure. 

Regarding your manufacturer "order" question, GM (General Motors) is the parent company.  GMC and Chevrolet are like sisters... different name, same otherwise.  For instance:
- Chevrolet Silverado is the same truck as a GMC Sierra
- Chevrolet Suburban is the same big SUV as a GMC Yukon XL
- Chevrolet Traverse = GMC Acadia = Buick Enclave = Saturn Outlook
- And there are just as many examples among GM's smaller car markets

There may be trim and feature differences between those models, but they all fall under the General Motors umbrella.  Ford and Dodge are completely separate companies.

Forgot to mention most all Chevy / GMC models are twins or first cousins.  They have different names, but usually come off the same assembly line, and have identical option packages and specs.

About the only van left on the market we the tow capacity you want is the GMC or chevey express 3500.    They have a 10,000 tow capacity.  The 2500 maxes out at 6,500 to 7,500 depending on option.    I go with the 3500.  You can also get it with a diesail motor

Wow!  The last few posts sure clear up some confusion, thank you all soooo much!  Both the mechanics that I take my current minivan to seemed to lean more toward GMC vs. Ford.  But I thought the Ford E350 was rated to 10K pounds (only looked at the GMC Trailer Life tow ratings so far - I'm currently somewhat boggled with tons of new info re FT RVing, trailers vs. Class C or A -- all at once).  Gaa!!

Grashley, there was one thing you wrote that I didn't understand -- the underlined part:
"Cargo in the van must be subtracted from the payload pound for pound.  Cargo properly distributed in the TT is carried 90% on the TT wheels and only 10% on the hitch.  You must stay below TT  GVWR, but you can increase capacity by filling the TT first."
 

What did you mean you can increase capacity?  You mean weight?  (Confused.)

And forgetting what dealers will say because GMC itself doesn't publish mileage, what kind of mileage would you GUESS that a GMC 3500 cargo van would get with, say an 8-8.5 thousand pound payload whether it's in the TT or some of it is carried in the van?  And then also what kind of mileage would it get NOT towing -- in-town driving and highway?  Because it would be my only vehicle.

Okay, I've spent I don't know how long on the GMC website, and it keeps taking me around in circles.  I click on Commercial vehicles, then cargo van, and in one place it tells me a 2500 can tow 10K pounds and once I do "build-a-price" in order to see the details, it tells me 8400 lbs.  I clicked on "convenience package" (power windows/locks) and then it won't let me remove the checkmark again.  I click on build-a-price, and it takes me back to a price for a truck, not a van.  Also I might add, I did call GMC yesterday and the woman who answered the new vehicle inquiry line gave me starting prices for the 2500 and 3500 Savanah cargo van, and they were of course different.  I asked her what the difference is between the two because she said they both tow 10K pounds, and she said "there isn't any difference."  I told her to check with someone else and after a 10-minute wait, she came back and said there was an error in their brochure, there is a difference but no one seems to know what it is.  (?????)  For some reason I'm leaning toward GMC but based on trying to get info via phone or their website.... kerplunk. 

Ford website is pretty clear, it appears their 2500 is only rated to 7600 lbs. towing (pretty sure that was the number) but I'd like to know from GMC's numbers why it says I could tow 10K with their 2500.  It would seem gas mileage would be better, and though I don't understand yet the differences on the rest of the specs for a cargo van, I'd at least like to compare the numbers just to see how big of a spread there is and in what areas.  Does anyone know of another website that might compare a GMC 2500 to a GMC 3500 cargo vans in relation to towing?  (Sorry to be such a pain but I think I was probably on their website for an hour.  I don't THINK that I'm getting early Alzheimer's, anyway, lol.)

OTW said:

Thank you Scott-
I knew cargo in van counts against tow weight, and someone suggested looking for a tow capacity of closer to 10K pounds if the GVWR was 7K pounds (she said to assume I'd use the whole 7K pounds). 

I'm hoping to get opinions on preferences for GMC Savannah vs. Ford, and I'm still confused whether Chevy and GMC are the same by different names or two different vehicles by a parent/child company relationship or ??.  That person said she prefers Fords, my mechanic said they tend to be weaker built, etc. 

Thanks if you can shed light on those things, and I do understand it's opinion, but if you do have a preference, could you briefly include why you prefer one over the other?  All donated info is much appreciated.

I am going to go to that link in the morning when my brain is fresh, I appreciate that it was offered.  ;-)

ETA:  Just glanced at the tow guides and they look terrific, thanks again Gary!

Click to expand...

Actually cargo in the van counts against gross combined weight and tongue weight.

A 7000# trailer should put about 700# on the ball, 10%. That 700# essentially counts as cargo in the van and on the rear axle.

Let's say the van weighs 6700# empty and the GVW is 8500#
Fuel adds 180#
Tongue weight 700#
2 people 400#
Your minimalist camping upgrade 500#
Luggage if in van 100#
=1880#
+6700#
=8580# which means you are overloaded

Your numbers will vary but that's the kinda math you need to do.

IME most people underestimate the weight of what they are really carrying because the vehicle may look nearly empty.

Keeping as much weight as possible in the trailer is IME a better plan.

Very helpful Mark, thank you much!  I did not know tongue weight had to be added to gross combined weight, I thought whatever weight causes the tongue weight would be already counted.  So if I pulled into a weigh station, weighed tow vehicle and travel trailer, would I add that 700 pounds of tongue weight to whatever the scale says?    ???  The rest of what you wrote is how I was thinking.  And I'm sure you are very right on that most people underestimate what they're putting in the TT.

Another question, I had read that you want your tow vehicle to have weight in it so that the TT isn't the boss.  That's why I had thought it would be smart to move a lot of contents normally in the TT into the van, in order to lighten what I'm towing and beef up the weight of the TV.  No?

Tongue weight is payload added to to tow vehicle and counts against the tow vehicle's GVWR, not added to the GCWR of tow vehicle and trailer. In your example, you would not add 700# to the scale reading.

Ahh, okay, I get it now.  Thanks!   

I'm still curious about the benefit of not moving stuff from the TT into the TV to make the TV heavier and the TT lighter.  It seemed logical to want to have the TV a bit heavier and the TT lighter so the TT doesn't overpower the TV but that might be another case of not thinking about it in the correct way. 

You can't just look at "2500" or 3500" for tow ratings. You have to consider the individual truck/van configuration, e.g. engine & tranny, rear axle ratio, suspension options, and trim level. The reason a passenger van typically has a lower rating than a cargo van is the difference in the weight of the interior trim and possibly fewer standard features as well. They started out mechanically the same, but a passenger van carries extra weight in the form of seating, maybe a plusher interior, and probably a higher option level too.

The brochures and ads will advertise the vehicle's highest possible tow rating, meaning configured to maximize that number. When you do a Build & Price, you almost always add optional features (more weight) and may possible NOT include some feature that was required to get the max tow capacity. That's why the tow rating is usually less than the advertised max.

Please look in the RVForum Glossary (button on menu bar) for terms like GVWR, GVWR, GCWR, Cargo Capacity, etc. They are simple enough, but you need to study them a bit to get them straight in your mind. Hard to digest when they get thrown at you piecemeal in a blog.

You do not double count pin weight or add it to any rating. It is part of the actual total trailer weight, but when the trailer is hitched to the tow vehicle it becomes "cargo", so must be considered when evaluating the effect of cargo on other capacities.

A convenient rule of thumb is that the trailer GVWR should be only 80%-90% of the max tow rating. That makes sure the tow vehicle still has enough tow capacity after passengers and gear are loaded into it. The 80% figure is intended for rigs that will frequently travel through steep mountain regions; other wise 90% is OK. The suggested tow rating in my first post was about 87%..

I'm still curious about the benefit of not moving stuff from the TT into the TV to make the TV heavier and the TT lighter.  It seemed logical to want to have the TV a bit heavier and the TT lighter so the TT doesn't overpower the TV but that might be another case of not thinking about it in the correct way.

Click to expand...

More likely you are over-thinking it. Realistically you can only move a few hundred lbs at most and that rarely has much effect on "overpowering the TV". If some weight is near the max rating, you can maybe compensate by moving weight from TV to TT or vice versa, but that's fine tuning.

OTW said:

Ahh, okay, I get it now.  Thanks!   

I'm still curious about the benefit of not moving stuff from the TT into the TV to make the TV heavier and the TT lighter.  It seemed logical to want to have the TV a bit heavier and the TT lighter so the TT doesn't overpower the TV but that might be another case of not thinking about it in the correct way. 

Click to expand...

So people that apply for commercial drivers licenses actually have to answer a question that asks:

Does a fully loaded truck and trailer or an empty truck and trailer stop faster?

The fully loaded vehicle stops faster.

Empty trailers tend to skid the tires which makes it harder to stop.

Over loading a vehicle is a different problem, the tires don't skid, instead the brakes overheat and fail.

Gary, I actually understood all of what you wrote.  I did learn what GVWR and GVCR were but I will look at the glossary because more's better.  ;-)

I was looking at GMC cargo van specs, and one thing that does confuse me (not likely in glossary) is... here's a cut/paste:
?Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs) : 5000
?Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs) : 500
?Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs) : 7400
?Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs) : 740
?Maximum Trailering Capacity (lbs) : 10000

So to check myself, with a wt. dist. hitch, I would add the 740 tongue wt. to the 7400 allowed trailer weight PLUS extra passengers, gear, etc., yes?  And what about the 10,000?  I take it from this that the trailer itself better max out at or under 7400 in poundage, the tongue weight not to exceed 740, and then whatever additional that you put in the van itself plus the preceding total cannot exceed 10K lbs., am I right?

And from what I understand you to be saying, one should consider those numbers to be really absolute maximums because the companies are willing to publish outside maximums for brag purposes, and not the conservative maximums that "use by" dates on canned goods include because they figure people will cheat a bit.  So do I have it somewhere around correct now? 

Dead wt hitch = a ball and a coupler. Period.  Think small utility trailer.

WD Hitch is self explanatory.  With your example, with a WD hitch,  the max TT  GVWR is 7400# with a 740# (10%) hitch wt.

The total weight of the trailer is not to exceed 7400#, including hitch wt.  Think weight of unhitched TT.

GCWR is weight of van and TT.  Think hitched on scale together.  If you weigh just the van when hitched, you will get the accurate weight the van is carrying, including hitch wt.  If you weigh just the trailer when hitched you will ONLY weigh the weight on the TT axles.  Hitch wt is on the van.  Add these two together and you do get GCWR.

HOWEVER, The weight of the loaded van, including hitch wt PLUS the TT  GVWR will not be right.  It counts the hitch weight twice.

My comment on loading the TT was this:  If I have a TT with 7000# GVWR and 2000#  CCC and a van with 1500# payload.  I have 2400# of cargo including 300# of people and snacks that must be in the van.
If you carry 1400# in the van, then the van carries 1400# + 80# WD hitch + 600# hitch wt ( 10% of 5000# empty + 1000# cargo) = 2080#  OVERLOADED!!
If you carry 400# in the van, then the van carries 400# + 80# 700# hitch wt ( 10% of 5000# empty + 2000# cargo) = 1180#  ROOM TO SPARE!
The GCW is the same either way.

Only 10% of weight added to the TT is carried by the van.  All weight added to the van is carried by the van.

Companies do not advertise outside the max.  Read the fine print.  They do make one capable of those weights, just not one you want to drive.  The one in the ad is a base model, max trailering option, but absolutely no other options, driver and passenger at 150# each, full tank of fuel, no cargo.

Be careful looking at manufacturer web sites.  They may or may not include the weight of options in their payloads, even when you build your own.  I know Ford does not.  Their payload for a base XL and a fully dressed Lariat with the same body and power train will be the same.  WRONG!!  The foot note says weight of all options must be deducted from payload.  I do not know how GM or RAM handle this.