Please Help? Re what van I'd need to tow a 7000-lb. GVWR trailer

They stopped making the e350. And the new ford transit doesn't have the tow capacity and is to new for your price range.  In the used marker. In a regular leanth. Ford or Chevy is good.  Dodge had been out ogmf the full size van marker since 2003.    If you want a extended leanth van then I stick with the Chevy GMC as their extended leanth  van moves the rear axle further back where ford just added an extra 2 feet to the back of their van.    The farther back axil on the Chevy is safer for towing

Grashley, very well explained, thank you.  That was the clarification I was missing - I now see what you meant about van carrying all or 10% of added cargo.  I think my only lurking question now about this part is -- how does one know that tongue weight of any given trailer is only 10% of its GVW?  Is this just an assumption, or an average, or what?  Because some trailers have one set of wheels (2) while another of its same length might have two (4 wheels).  So it would seem that # wheels under the trailer would have an effect on that as well.

Robert, I'm seeing that I may have been just a tad optimistic re vehicle price range.  And thank you VERY much for the info on wheel base because that was another question I was going to have to ask in terms of towing. 

The only way to know the tongue weight is to weigh it and adjust your loading.

It's a variable. Where are you packing your canned goods? Are your propane tanks full? Holding and water tanks? Are you putting a motorcycle on a rack on the rear bumper?

What having close to 10% on the tongue does is keep the trailer handling well, if you only have 2% on the tongue of the trailer the trailer will drive the tow vehicle right off the road into a ditch the first opportunity it gets. Having 20% on the tongue un duly stresses the jack and ball mount...

how does one know that tongue weight of any given trailer is only 10% of its GVW?  Is this just an assumption, or an average, or what?

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RV trailers are designed to put roughly 10% of the total weight on the hitch. That's because at least 10% is required for safe towing, meaning reduced risk of trailer sway.  With 10-12% of the weight on the hitch, the trailer will docilely follow the tow vehicle. Less that that is likely to cause violent swaying while underway. Maybe not instantly, but sooner or later.  However, the 10-12% ideal can often be dramatically altered by how the owner loads gear and water into it, so a scaled weight is a wise idea.

Okay at the risk of sounding really stupid, how do you determine what the tongue weight onto the tow vehicle is?  From the last couple of posts, it sounds like you can adjust how much of the weight of the trailer is resting on the tongue. (?)

Weigh it!!

As Gary said, trailers are designed that way. They come from the factory balanced on the wheels/trailer hitch so that 10% of the total weight falls on the hitch, the balance (90%) is on the wheels. The only way to adjust that is by loading your 'stuff' more forward, towards the back (behind the wheels), or over the wheels. It is critical for YOU to load your 'stuff' so that the balance ratio is maintained. For example: Don't try and load that 500lb motorcycle on the back bumper and expect the 10% rule to be maintained unless you move a lot of 'stuff' forward towards the hitch to counter-balance it.

To determine what you have, weigh the vehicle without the trailer, and then weigh it again with the trailer attached. It is not necessary to do this each time you go camping, once you have an idea how your particular combination is reacting to the tow (tendency to sway etc), it will become second nature to you.

The use of the trailer GVW for these purposes is only to give an approximation of weight when the 'real thing' is unknown. The unladen or empty weight as published in many documents, is useless and, very often, inaccurate. Not too many people actually pull an empty trailer around. Using the GVWR instead, (the legal maximum the trailer (or vehicle) can weigh for use on public roads), simply gives a margin of safety in calculations. Many (most?) trailers will never come close to that weight once loaded for camping....)

Alfa38User said:

Weigh it!!

To determine what you have, weigh the vehicle without the trailer, and then weigh it again with the trailer attached. It is not necessary to do this each time you go camping, once you have an idea how your particular combination is reacting to the tow (tendency to sway etc), it will become second nature to you.

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I would suggest three weight:
1.  Van and TT hitched together all on the scale
2.  Van only on the scale, still hitched.
3.  Van only, TT unhitched.

1 Is your GCW Gross Combined Weight
2 is the van GVW Gross Vehicle Weight
2 - 3  = Hitch Weight.
1 - 3  = TT GVW

Basic physic teaches a load placed directly above the TT axle(s) will have no effect on hitch wt. The axle will carry the entire load.  100# placed exactly half way between the axle and hitch will add 50# to each.  The same 100# placed the same distance behind the axle will reduce hitch wt by 50#.  You do not need to weigh and measure each item placed in the trailer.  Just understand the principle of stuff in front of the axle adds hitch wt and stuff behind the axle reduces hitch wt.  Also note where your water and holding tanks are located.

A minimum 10% hitch wt is required for safety and good towing manners.  There is no such thing as too much hitch wt unless it overloads the tow vehicle.  For most of us, that means 10% - 12%.

Our forum library has an article describing how to weight your loaded rig on a truck scale, that will give you the individual and combined weights of every part of your setup (including tongue weight).

In the row of links near the top of the page, click on Library -> Towing and Towables and I believe it's in that category.  You'll see there are dozens of other articles on various RV topics in the library as well.

Hoooooookay.  It's now making sense.  It was no brainer how to find out weight of each vehicle, but it was the tongue weight itself that was hanging me up.  Whew!  The remaining unknown now understood. 

Thank you all for explaining all that! 

I've been searching (I mean HOURS!) for used GMC/Chevy 3500 cargo vans around my price range and haven't scored anything yet.  Brick walls.  However I did just go back to GMC's website and it appears that a 2500 cargo van would work IF! it has the 6L and not the 4.8.  It shows tow rating for 10K pounds on both regular wheel base and extended.  So maybe I'm doing overkill in looking at only 3500's?  (I started by asking my two mechanics and one said "Oh, for that you'd want a V10."  The other one said yesterday, "Why are you looking at 1-ton?  You don't need that to pull a 7K pound trailer."  GAAA!!  This is crazymaking. 

But the latter may have a point.  I've been thinking in terms of 10K pounds and the bottom line is, the trailer itself empty (UVW) shows it as just under 4990 lbs.  Its GVWR is 7K pounds.  I would be full-timing in it, but being extreeemely careful about what I put in it but further, I'd be taking out the whole dinette setup.  In its place a lightweight stand-alone table I can move around and two patio chairs.  I don't think I'd exceed the 7K total.  And there would not be a ton of stuff in the van itself because everything I'd be taking on side van-camping trips would be taken out of the trailer.  Only exception?  Possible paneling and insulation in the van, and about 8 tent poles, a tent and a few other really not heavy things that would just live in the van.

Therefore, 7K pounds real TT weight (max probably) plus say mmmm, 300 lbs. of camping stuff that would live in the van.  I seriously doubt more than that.  So in that hypothetical, am I safe IYHO to consider getting a 2500 cargo van with 6.0L engine? 

It all depends on the weight ratings... you've learned that mechanics and/or salesmen may not always have the most accurate information, and certainly don't have as much concern for YOUR towing needs than YOU do.  If a 2500 with the 6.0L will do, then sure go for it!  Or at least add that search option in with the 3500 search, then it doubles your chances of finding something that works.

Spending hours on these searches is great, but many of us spent MONTHS looking for our perfect RV, tow vehicle, or daily driver vehicle.  I did on all three.  Frustrating when nothing turns up, but the longer you go the more you hone your searching skills and confidence in what you need & what it should cost.  Then y out KNOW when the right one comes along, and you can jump on it!

If the numbers work you are good to go.

As said above by others though, every option the vehicle has adds weight. Air conditioner, trailer hitch, bigger engine, upgrade tires, full fuel tank...

Actually weigh your potential new van and look at it's owners manual then do the all the math.

Thanks Scott-
I've also been operating under the impression that a "cargo van" is not necessarily as bare bones as a "cargo van WT" but now I'm wondering if I'm wrong and that any cargo van is going to be super bare bones in terms of seat comfort, etc. in the cab area.  If you happen to know that, please let me know.

Meanwhile, I'm now considering biting the bullet and looking at Chev 2500HD trucks.  I was hoping to stay with a van but ...  well, the above reason.  Found one that looks a bit interesting - 4x4.  That would be good but I don't know what 4x4 does to one's mileage. 

Will do Mark, thanks very much.  It's a truck I'm looking at now.  If cargo vans are as uncomfortable to drive as what I'm now finding they sound like, then I think I need to revise my thinking about trucks. 

TO EVERYONE! 
Thank you ALL so VERY much for helping me figure out what these numbers mean and how to put them together.  I really appreciate it a lot. 

Was your main reason for a van to allow for minimalist camping in the van itself at times?

I'm not sure about any differences between versions of cargo vans... you'd probably have to go look at some in person to know for sure.  But either way, they are generally built strictly for utility and not for comfort.

4x4 is a fine feature, but it generally isn't needed for towing and adds 300-500# to the vehicle weight... hence that same amount is subtracted from overall towing capacity.

I am sure you have seen this page.      http://www.gmc.com/previous-year/savana-cargo-van/features-specs/trims.html#   

You are very correct about the towing specs.  About 3000# payload for the 2500; and 4000 for the 3500.  The extended costs 200# of payload due to its weight.  Either one should do fine.

NOTE OF CAUTION: This is the 2016 model specs.  They can change year to year.  Make SURE to check the yellow label to verify THAT van has sufficient payload to meet your needs.  I would guess the yellow label payloads to be 200# - 400# less, depending on option packages.

You should be in great shape!

Scott- 
Main reason for the cargo van vs. truck is that my tow vehicle would be my car as well.  It would also serve as a camper that may not be pretty to the eye but would work for me.  But in terms of "my car" use, I would strongly prefer an empty van to a pickup truck.  (First waking thought this morning was, "hmmm, don't quite turn loose of van idea yet.")  From what I hear, the seating in a Ford cargo van is not conducive to long trip driving (e.g., New England/Florida).  But I have not sat in a driver's seat of a GMC cargo van.  So that's next on the agenda. 

Which leads me to...

Thanks for that link, Grashley!  I have not been able to get that spec sheet to work!  So now another question.  Under Mechanical, it says "Heavy Duty Towing Package."  Under that, it says, "Trailering Hitch Platform, 7-pin sealed connector (assume that's electric brake wiring) but then it says "Requires Available Dedicated Natural Gas System."  WHAZZZAT?? Can all this be added after market?  Either by GMC or a Camper's World type service dept.?

And do either of you know whether nicer seats can be safely installed into a cargo van?  If so is that terribly expensive?

OTW custom interiors and seating for vans have been done and done well for many, many years. So well that it spawned it's own class of RVs, class B.

I'd suggest you find a dealer that sells converted vans and class B MH's, not necessarily to buy one, but to see what's possible.

One distinct difference that will affect you comfort between an "empty" PU and "empty" van is noise. PU interiors are typically finished and quiet, empty vans are unfinished and like riding in a steel can. 

Once you are done at the place with the conversion vans go to a dealer with an empty van and take a ride.

OTW said:

Under Mechanical, it says "Heavy Duty Towing Package."  Under that, it says, "Trailering Hitch Platform, 7-pin sealed connector (assume that's electric brake wiring) but then it says "Requires Available Dedicated Natural Gas System."  WHAZZZAT?? Can all this be added after market? 

And do either of you know whether nicer seats can be safely installed into a cargo van?  If so is that terribly expensive?

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I suspect the Natural Gas bit is in the wrong place.  I did not see a natural gas option for the van anywhere!  The 7 pin wiring includes wiring for lights and brakes.  A brake controller is needed.

Looking at the option list, 6 way power seats are available, along with power windows, locks, cruise, remote start, nav system, etc.  The best advise is still to go drive a few.

Okay, I'm backing off the cargo van idea as a tow vehicle at least to start with.  I won't bore you with why but what I wanted from it will be way less often needed than what would actually probably work better with a crew cab PU and a lockable toneau cover or cap. 

What I think I have found is a small car/truck lot that I've passed many times and barely noticed, where owner, service manager and other key employees have been there for years.  They have great reviews (the kind that look quite real) and from what I can tell they target local repeat business and word of mouth.  I'm going to go there this morning and was told the SM knows towing very well, that he'll sit down with me, hear what I want to tow and carry, and then recommend specific truck choices.  (MECCA!)  Then when I'm ready, if they don't have it, they can look for it specifically as they visit auctions.  Their inventory leans toward GMC/Chevy clean-used.  It appears they price "fairly."  Not 'blow-out cheap' where you kinda wonder, and not high from what I can tell.  But if I have confidence vs. skepticism, that's worth a lot.  I'll know if they're what I think they are, when I get there.

You all have may never know how much you have helped me in this thread, and I strongly suspect there will be others who'll come across it as time goes on who will also be extremely helped by it.  You've explained A LOT!  Thank you very, very much.  I'll come back to it in case of replies, and of course, if I need to verify anything further will ask.  But {{{BIG HUGS}}} in the meantime.  Whew! 

That's exactly what these threads are for, to help you "talk it out" and learn more as you go.  Stick around, because I'm sure you'll have truck purchasing/towing questions as that time arrives... and then there's the whole RV buying/using part.