Sewer

As yall know i'm looking to build an RV park. and i have got some great input but I would like to keep this post strictly to sewer.
Sewer is one on the toughest and expensive parts of a campground and worse in the place i'm looking at. With new regulations and wanting to do it right we're talking a lot of money. just running figures in my head i'm looking at a 15,000-20,000 gallon treatment plant not septic, I doubt it'll perk enough.
To make sites with a sewer hook up. Just the hook up not counting the treatment plant but just moving the sewage from the lot to the plant will cost about $10,000-$15,000 per lot then multiply that by 30-50 lots.
Here's my question. Since you're suppose to let your tank fill then dump it (i hope you don't hook up and let it constantly drain. that's how toilet paper and turds get stuck in the tank)why not a honey wagon and let the staff dump your tank for you?
For that price plus maintenance plus power I can hire a guy full time to go around with a honey wagon to all 150-200 lots for 25 years
I'd rather put the money to other amenities and still give good service and keep a clean campground without having to smell your neighbor's sewer

Thoughts? 

You could still have it piped to a holding tank and have it pumped out, but if its anything like where i live they have really raised the price of rural septic disposal. For people only staying a few days you could have a clean out station they could use on the way out. Septic is going to be a huge expense. The beds take up lots of space. If you move them farther away, you need pump stations. You would think that technically each large rv could produce close to the same amount of waste water as a normal home. Therefore, you would need septic beds close to the size of a house for each lot. This could amount to acres of septic field or as you stated a waste treatment plant which i wouldnt want to hazard a guess as to what that would cost. Any chance of getting on town services. Perhaps that might ultimately shape your choice on where you buy the lot.

RVers will generally let the black tank fill for several days or a week before dumping, therefore the tank is closed. The gray water however is often left open to drain showers, sinks, or laundry. The gray tank can easily fill in a day or two, while the black goes much longer.  So the immediate need is for lots of leach line for the gray water, and the septic tank for the solids. 

A large campground with many sites all with no hook ups can discourage longer term stays for some RVers.

One of the RV parks in the Florida Keys had that service, but the draw back was the individual RV'rs had to pay each time they used it.
I think the biggest draw back would be the fact that the honey wagon would be constantly driving around the various sites and that would turn people off from returning.

If you are in a desirable place, where people would want to stay I would think one dump station with a big holding  tank that could be pumped out on a daily or as needed basis would possibly be worth looking into.

Good luck, I hope it works out for you

Jack L

IMO the real drawback in a honey wagon service is simply the need to synchronize with the wagon, perhaps at off-hours. A certain percentage of people, or some percentage of the time, will have "emergencies" because they did not or could not pre-plan the dumping. A related concern is whether the RV owner needs to be present when dumping. Some parks require it, and some owners simply don't trust the wagon people or the procedure and feel the need to be on hand. That adds to the sync concern, since the owner has to plan his day around honey wagon scheduling.

The upside for many RVers is that they don't have to do anything about that nasty stuff.

One compromise is to have a regularly scheduled honey wagon visit with the option for extra calls, maybe at a fee for the special service vs scheduled.


Another factor:  Few RVs have a large enough gray tank to handle typical domestic gray water volume.  Long term RVers in big rigs use their RV just like a residence and in a nice RV park expect to be able to use water just like at home. Long showers, washing clothes, dish-washing (hand or machine), etc. That could generate "gray honey" calls every 2-3 days.

Your math is a bit skewed......

Moving waste from Site #1 (Or site #N of N sites) to treatment plant.. yes. you are close

But moving waste from Site #2 to Site #1, only adds about 40 feet of PVC and a "T" fitting and a threaded adapter, and some double female adapters to join the pipe. (or 50 feet if you are nice,  and each site along the row likewise adds only the pipe needed to reach that site.

John From Detroit said:

Your math is a bit skewed......

Moving waste from Site #1 (Or site #N of N sites) to treatment plant.. yes. you are close

But moving waste from Site #2 to Site #1, only adds about 40 feet of PVC and a "T" fitting and a threaded adapter, and some double female adapters to join the pipe. (or 50 feet if you are nice,  and each site along the row likewise adds only the pipe needed to reach that site.

Click to expand...

True it seems like that but it's not that easy. I wish it was. this OP wouldn't exist. The pipe size is much larger and  just the labor cost compared to water and power lines is many times more. I know the numbers sound high but it adds up quick and you do not want to under estimate infrastructure you can't go back and easily fix

I should add I'm doing this with my son, who has worked at a 220 lot RV park for about 10 years I have plumbing electrical and piping licenses. The park my son works at has 220 lots 8 of which have sewer the rest is honey wagon. He says they have more problems with those 8 than all other repairs. Regulations tie my hands in many ways too. 
If I hire a full time guy synchronizing will be easy and there really won't be emergencies because if a camper sees he needs it he just lets the staff know, he goes and empties it, the same for if the owner wants to be there, LOL I'm that type of owner at no extra fee.
I understand grey water fills faster and it seems you could dispose of it easier but when the 2 pipes on the RV are connected and separated only by vales instead of 2 separate outlets they both are considered black.
I'm looking for opinions so I can figure how to over come problems and do my best to make everybody happy and provide the best service at the best price. And not stuck on this is how it's been for ever 

Having worked RV parks for several years myself, including installation of new sites & sewer hook-ups, I'll quickly agree that sewers are a major maintenance issue at most RV parks.  Whether onsite or a central dump station. I've spent more time fixing clogged lift stations than I really want to think about!

However, you still need the treatment plant (or equivalent) with the honey wagon, so with a honey wagon you are only saving the site-to-site waste lines and any necessary lift pumps. Unless the ground is rocky or very hilly, running waste lines to strategically placed lift stations is not a big deal when setting up originally. Not cheap by any means, but pretty much plumbing 101. It's more of a site planning problem, in my opinion. You figure out your main trunk lines and any necessary lift stations and then set the branch lines to each site. The trench will be a different one than the electrical and fresh water, of course.

Fulltime employees aren't inexpensive either, and they cost more each & every year.

Just my opinion.

First is I don't think that use of a Honey wagon would be considered normal for most RV parks.
Many people would not be expecting that when they are use to connecting a sewer hose up.

Also I don't think you could say Full Hook Ups (FHU) in your advertising, of the features of the park if no sewer.

I'm pretty sure that sooner or later something would go wrong letting someone else play inside the water
compartment on someone's MH etc.  Seems you would have to have insurance in case something broke.

I'm sure you know that somethings have to be handled "just right" for them to work and the owner of said item knows
what the trick is to get it to work just right.  Someone coming along that didn't know the trick could break said item very quickly,
do you know what I'm talking about?

I'm going to assume that there are very few campground owners on this forum (maybe a few but not many) and that most of us
are just going to give you our opinions.  IMO (again) you need to talk to other campground owners and see how they solved this problem.
Do most use honey wagons?  Are they hooked to the Cities system?  Did they spend $10 million on the waste system?  Do you need
to pick a different site? One where all the liquids run downhill so no pumps are needed?  Do any campgrounds have their own Septic truck
and pump out their tank and take it somewhere?

I'm glad your researching this.  Keep in mind IF you were the camper what type of camping experience would you like.

Gary RVer Emeritus said:

Having worked RV parks for several years myself, including installation of new sites & sewer hook-ups, I'll quickly agree that sewers are a major maintenance issue at most RV parks.  Whether onsite or a central dump station. I've spent more time fixing clogged lift stations than I really want to think about!

However, you still need the treatment plant (or equivalent) with the honey wagon, so with a honey wagon you are only saving the site-to-site waste lines and any necessary lift pumps. Unless the ground is rocky or very hilly, running waste lines to strategically placed lift stations is not a big deal when setting up originally. Not cheap by any means, but pretty much plumbing 101. It's more of a site planning problem, in my opinion. You figure out your main trunk lines and any necessary lift stations and then set the branch lines to each site. The trench will be a different one than the electrical and fresh water, of course.

Fulltime employees aren't inexpensive either, and they cost more each & every year.

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There is no easy or cheap answer. you're right honey wagon or lift stations I still need a water treatment system. You can not look at RV like a house the flows are totally different. A house may flush more waste it's done in small amounts at a regular rate where as RV dump a lot of waste at one time. So the system must be designed to handle a large massive load 5-10 times that of a house even if it is only every couple days.  Now if I can fill some of the land with sandy soil and make it perk I can install each of a few lots with individual septic systems

No matter what I do I still need a 15,000-20,000 gallon treatment plant. With honey wagon I can place the treatment plant on the other side of the paved road not in the campground. I like that. instead of a 1/2 million upfront cost just to supply 1/4 of the campground I can spread that over many years to pay an employ to do 100% of the campground and be able to use him for other jobs during slow season. As you know until you've done it you don't realize how much work and money goes into it. all that said I still would like to provide some lots with full hook-ups I just need to figure a more efficient way.

another way would be large holding tanks (1000-1500 gallons) at several of the lots and just have the honey wagon drain the tanks kinda the best of both worlds

There is also another possible solution. 

I have good friends that own a campground in Vermont.  They have a large plastic holding tank buried at each site with a regular connection.  These are just holding tanks and they go around and pump these tanks into a honey wagon, (actually a tractor pulling a trailer mounted tank) and then dump into their main treatment tank.

There is no need for any interaction with the camper or the RV.

Just another idea.

At the FS campground we hosted at last year, that was how our hookups were handled.  Both hosts coaches were  hooked up to a storage tank, and a commercial honey wagon emptied them a couple times during the season(only 2 sites hooked to tank).

I was thinking along the lines of Huey Pilot. 
1 large holding tank for every 4-5 sites.

Could honey wagon it.
Or have automatic lift pumps on each of the tanks going to the treatment site.

After I typed this I see you just kind of said the same thing. ;D

I work in construction and we never look forward to the honey wagon coming around pumping the portable toilets. Cant imagine bbq ing lunch and along comes the honey wagon to pump out your neighbor or a holding tank by your site. I would at least pipe everything to a holding tank away from the campers. Hope for a good wind blowing the other way. lol

instead of a 1/2 million upfront cost just to supply 1/4 of the campground

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That seems like a huge estimate. Just how big is this campground? And where is it? There are areas where sewage treatment plants and waste plumbing are indeed hyper-expensive, but RV parks tend to be built elsewhere (though that cost is probably part of the reason for choosing a different locale). Are you building in a metro area?  I know of a park built on a rock mountain top that spent less than that, and the trenches for the sewer lines & lifts had to be blasted out of solid rock.

OK, my experience with honey wagon was great. Used one when I was "camping" in my bil's yard for a few weeks with no way to get close to his sewer cleanout. Guy came, hooked up and pumped out all tanks in less than 10 min. No noise, no smell. Also, he told me I didn't even have to be there...he comes and hooks up and opens/closes dump valves. Only thing is one couldn't flush black tank. This service cost me $ but in this case was worth not having to hook up and drive 15 miles to the nearest dump station, come back and unhook again. Also, no worry for us about filling tanks while there. When it came time to dump tanks, a call to the dumper and he would come same day.

HueyPilotVN said:

There is also another possible solution. 

I have good friends that own a campground in Vermont.  They have a large plastic holding tank buried at each site with a regular connection.  These are just holding tanks and they go around and pump these tanks into a honey wagon, (actually a tractor pulling a trailer mounted tank) and then dump into their main treatment tank.

There is no need for any interaction with the camper or the RV.

Just another idea.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing.  Maybe several lots into each tank, but the manual transfer saves lots of pumping stations and lots of piping.

HueyPilotVN said:

There is also another possible solution. 

I have good friends that own a campground in Vermont.  They have a large plastic holding tank buried at each site with a regular connection.  These are just holding tanks and they go around and pump these tanks into a honey wagon, (actually a tractor pulling a trailer mounted tank) and then dump into their main treatment tank.

There is no need for any interaction with the camper or the RV.

Just another idea.

Click to expand...

I was thinking that too and that may be the best solution 

Instead of a treatment plant have you looked into an active aerobic system.  I work for an excavation company and we've installed two of these units in RV parks that were prohibited from using a standard septic system due to their proximity to a river.  Yes you're going to have thousands of gallons of tanks to deal with but the effluent is usable as irrigation water thereby eliminating one of your costs, irrigation.

As far as the honey wagon idea, I'm not a fan and I don't know of many who would go out of their way to spend a lot of time in an RV park that used such a service for their main method of disposal.