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Author Topic: Mirrorless cameras  (Read 2435 times)

Tom

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Mirrorless cameras
« on: March 30, 2017, 06:44:42 PM »
I've been thinking of consolidating my DSLR cameras (Canon Rebel and Canon bridge) and Canon video camera into a single camera. I've done some research, read lots of reviews and watched YouTube hands-on reports. The field is somewhat mind boggling. I really like the Panasonic G7, partly because of the light weight and partly because of the ease of functionality. The downside is that my Canon Speedlite flash doesn't work in ETTL mode on that camera, and the Panasonic flash isn't chump change.

Sony A6300 and A6500 are nice cameras, but the menu system is somewhat complex, among other issues. One nice thing with these (Sony) cameras is that image stabilization is in the body, rather than in the lens.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 10:06:47 AM by Tom »
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DutchEagle

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2017, 09:03:00 PM »
Hi Tom
I consolidated about a year ago from a Canon 7D (18 MP) with 7 lenses and 2 flashes to a Panasonic FZ1000 (21 MP) bridge camera and a fixed 25-400mm zoom lens, even more range as my 7 Canon lenses. It can do 4K video and has a great LCD sreen that can be turned in any direction even for a selfie :). Image stabilization in camera and works awesome for video! It works with SD cards has wireless capabilities and is not expensive.
I'm very happy with this smaller camera and it weigh less then the packed bag I hauled around before.
It is true however that you cannot use ETTL flash from another brand, same as you cannot use a Nikon ETTL flash on a Canon with ETTL.
There are some simple ways around when you know some standard settings of your manual flash combined with manual camera settings. I cannot give you the numbers exact as I don't know what kind of flash you have. But it goes  like: Shutterspeed between 1/60 and 1/200 Aperture f/8 for between 6 and 8 feet. on 1/2 flash power but it depends on how powerful the flash is. Farther away? same settings but flash on 3/4, closer? flash on 1/4 etc.
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8Muddypaws

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2017, 09:53:26 PM »
I got a really good deal on a Canon M3.  (I mean a really really good deal , less than half price) Then I bought an adapter (non canon) that lets me use all of my existing Canon lenses.  It has all the go to stuff on it, wireless, in camera effects, selfie mode and so on, all of which are useless to me.  It's 24MP but as far as I can tell it doesn't make that much difference from the 18 MP I've been using for a few years.  The only thing I don't like is the on camera flash, it pops up on a very fragile looking mechanism.  My speedlight works perfectly on it so that's what I use most.

It does videos very well.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2017, 11:40:05 PM »
Hadn't considered the Panasonic FZ100, but it's a serious camera for my needs, especially with that Leica 25-400mm lens. Many similar features to the G7, at a lower price. Manual flash is something I'd need to learn.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2017, 09:00:01 AM »
Thanks Russ, but the lack of a viewfinder on the M3 is a deal breaker for me; It's been my #1 criteria on camera purchases for years.
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Gizmo

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2017, 09:48:06 AM »
I have also downsized from my Canon 5D to a mirror less system because of the weight and size differential and so happy I did.  I have gone with the Olympus OM-D Em1 for a couple reasons.  First way back in the film days I had an Olympus OM1 and as a pro photographer, it received a lot of abuse and use and never failed me, also of importance the glass is all excellent.  Also I liked the fact that the Olympus has the stabilization in the body which means I can use a wide variety of lenses and still have image stabilization.  While I favor the Olympus, Panasonic does make a good mirror less system and I have a couple of their lenses for my Olympus as well.  The one area where the Olympus falls short of the Panasonic is video, Panasonic does real well in video while the Olympus does reasonably well.  Video is not that important to me so the few times I want to video something the Olympus is up to the task, but Olympus has the edge in stills, which is the most important thing for me.  Either way Tom you can't go wrong and if you have experience lugging around bulky equipment you will come to love the smaller platform. 
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2017, 10:01:13 AM »
Thanks Bruce, appreciate the perspective.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2017, 10:07:54 AM »
Just checked prices, and got sticker shock with the new version (II) of the EM1.
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Gizmo

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2017, 10:38:16 AM »
Yes the new is pretty pricey, but as a pro I needed it's capability.  But besides Olympus making other mirror less models that are less expensive, do not be afraid to check the used market Ebay, B&H, Adorama & Keh camera are good sources for used.  I purchased mine used through Ebay and got a body in really fine shape, hardly used for pennies on the dollar.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2017, 11:03:12 AM »
Good point Bruce, I hadn't thought of buying used.
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Great Horned Owl

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2017, 05:47:19 PM »
Tom, you can find a lot of photo equipment reviews at https://www.dpreview.com/.

Their reviews tend to be quite detailed. For example, their review of the FZ100 that you mentioned, is 17 pages long. https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/2015-roundup-long-zoom-compacts

I have also found their reviews to be well done, accurate, and very informative. Unlike some review sites, these are more than just somebody's opinion. Rather, they often include have extensive, laboratory, test results.

Their forums are also a good place for (opinionated) advice on photo equipment, or to ask questions .

Joel
« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 05:53:47 PM by Great Horned Owl »
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2017, 05:51:43 PM »
Thanks Joel. I've read a few reviews on dpreview.com and, as you say, they're quite extensive.
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8Muddypaws

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2017, 08:41:21 AM »
Thanks Russ, but the lack of a viewfinder on the M3 is a deal breaker for me; It's been my #1 criteria on camera purchases for years.

There is an electronic viewfinder.  Same as for any other mirrorless DSLR.  I'm finding that I prefer the screen because I'm not messing with my darn glasses all the time when I use it.  The screen has pretty good viewability in sunlight but if you're wearing polarized sunglasses the off axis viewing is zero.
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Great Horned Owl

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2017, 08:53:29 AM »
Since you like the Panasonic FZ100, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the FZ200. It has the an even longer, Leica25-600mm equivalent lens with an amazing F2.8 across the zoom range.

Joel
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2017, 11:31:25 AM »
Ah yes, and the replacement FZ300. I started re-looking at Canon (so I can use my Speedlite) and was looking at their SX60. But the lens doesn't have that F2.8 over the range. My head is spinning  :-[
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8Muddypaws

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2017, 05:07:47 PM »
Since the CCD is smaller than a 35mm frame F4 is probably about the same objective ratio as F2.8 used to be.  And with being able to adjust she speed upwards up 12,000 on the fly who needs all that glass anyway?  😜
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2017, 05:21:49 PM »
Since the CCD is smaller than a 35mm frame F4 is probably about the same objective ratio as F2.8 used to be.  And with being able to adjust she speed upwards up 12,000 on the fly who needs all that glass anyway?  😜

On those small CCDs, taking the ASA higher than around 800. tends to yield some rather noisy results. Some manufacturers use some aggressive noise reduction in their processing, but that also results in some loss of fine detail. Try taking a shot at 12,000 ASA , and then comparing the raw fire with the processed jpeg file. You will see how noisy the original was, and also how much detail was lost in the noise reduction.

Joel
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8Muddypaws

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2017, 06:57:57 PM »
pushed film got grainy, digital gets noise.  It is what it is.  All part of the creative spectrum.

In actuality I find that anything over 1600 is pretty much useless unless I'm looking to do something weird with the images.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 08:55:23 AM »
Finally emerged from analysis paralysis, and pulled the trigger on the Panasonic G7 with 14-140mm lens. The combination of light weight, 1" sensor, and the best rated video were some of the factors that tipped the scale. The EVF and articulating screen were must-have features, although they're available on other cameras in addition to my Canon bridge.
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DutchEagle

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2017, 10:18:07 AM »
That is a good choice Tom, hope you have as much fun with it as I did when I switched.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2017, 10:34:01 AM »
Thanks. Can't wait for it to arrive, then sell my other cameras.
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Gizmo

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2017, 03:04:31 PM »
Best of luck with it enjoy it Tom, it should serve you well.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2017, 06:03:48 PM »
The Panasonic G7 arrived a day earlier than promised. I'm awaiting a few other bits, including a bag and an SD card, but I'm up and running with a lower-capacity card. I don't normally read manuals, believing that stuff should be intuitive to use, but I've made an exception and started reading. All the options are somewhat mind boggling. I love the light weight of this camera.

I might hit the water in the bass boat in the morning, and see if I can get some shots of local landmarks and wildlife.
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2017, 06:25:43 PM »
I always read the manual while I am waiting for the camera to arrive. Then sit down with the camera and the manual after it arrives and go over absolutely everything with the camera in my hand and try it all out. Then about a month later sit down and go through it again. It is extremely difficult to absorb everything a modern camera can do in one sitting.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2017, 06:35:44 PM »
Quote
It is extremely difficult to absorb everything a modern camera can do in one sitting.

You're not kidding!
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jackiemac

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2017, 02:07:04 AM »
I always read the manual while I am waiting for the camera to arrive. Then sit down with the camera and the manual after it arrives and go over absolutely everything with the camera in my hand and try it all out. Then about a month later sit down and go through it again. It is extremely difficult to absorb everything a modern camera can do in one sitting.

A man who reads a manual? At last  ;D ;D


And Tom, these photos are getting a big build up, expectations are high 😀
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 02:08:37 AM by jackiemac »
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2017, 03:06:16 AM »
LOL Jackie, don't hold your breath. My grandson's wife & partner in his photo business uses this camera for her blogging biz. My GS offered to walk me through the features on the phone, and I'm going to take hIm up on the offer; That should help shorten the learning curve. Fortunately, we have a 'cheap calls' international plan on our home phone  ;D
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2017, 08:20:34 AM »
Played a little with the WiFi remote operation from tablet or phone. Neat feature, that's also available on other cameras/brands I looked at. First time to have it on any of my cameras.
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Gizmo

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 09:27:53 AM »
Tom, I have found most camera manuals to be frustrating to glean the information you need to use. A better choice is to do one of two things, or both, go to you tube and type in your camera make and model and look for tutorials and look for a book on your specific camera.  I have found these to be way more useful.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 09:52:02 AM »
Thanks Bruce, will do. I'm also looking forward to a phone walk-through with my GS.
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jackiemac

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2017, 05:51:11 PM »
Tom takes his new mirrorless camera on its first outing......  😀
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2017, 06:01:01 PM »
LOL Jackie, nice one  ;D
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quadna71

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2017, 06:17:06 PM »
Congrats on your M43 purchase.  I too was hung up on all my Canon gear - 5D, 6D, flashes, and lots of huge lenses.  Fast forward about a year and I'm now rocking an Oly EM10mII with mainly prime lenses.  It's astonishing how well a small body can produce great files and being more portable is just another added bonus.   
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2017, 09:42:21 AM »
Tom takes his new mirrorless camera on its first outing......  😀

That is funny, I recall that photo from my photography history classes.  I bet Tom did not realize he was going to become intimately familiar with wet plates.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2017, 09:46:30 AM »
Quote
I bet Tom did not realize he was going to become intimately familiar with wet plates.

I have exposed and unexposed emulsion plates from my Dad's early photography days. I was showing them to my grandson (pro photographer) while he was visiting a couple of weeks ago. We played around with different ways to produce a digital image using today's tools.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2017, 07:18:16 AM »
I spent hours looking for a replacement for my Canon Speedlite flash to provide TTL capability on the Panasonic G7. I'd find something, then it wouldn't be available. Finally opted for the Panasonic DMW-FL36L flash from Adorama.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2017, 08:22:15 PM »
The Panasonic DMW-FL36L flash (finally) arrived today. Just like my Canon Speedlite flash, it required external batteries.

First playing around was somewhat disappointing, and the flash appeared to discharge the camera battery. More practice tomorrow.
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jackiemac

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2017, 01:19:51 AM »
I keep expecting to see a photo  :o
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2017, 06:27:47 AM »
Can't figure out where to put the film  ???
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 07:59:50 AM by Tom »
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2017, 08:04:33 AM »
Found a replacement model flash here .
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jackiemac

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2017, 12:25:59 PM »
 ;D
Can't figure out where to put the film  ???
😆😆😆
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2017, 07:25:47 PM »
I think I have the Panasonic flash figured out. Next challenge, figure out the video capability.
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8Muddypaws

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2017, 11:01:00 PM »
I think I have the Panasonic flash figured out. Next challenge, figure out the video capability.

The 'gotcha' with videos on most SLR cameras is that you may want to change the focusing mode because the motors can be quite loud.  Holding an SLR steady enough for video is not easy but they make all kinds of stabilizers.  Or for the old school folks among us a tripod works just fine.
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Tom

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2017, 11:58:45 PM »
Understood Russ, thanks. I have a tripod  ;D
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2017, 07:40:02 AM »
The Panasonic G7 captures stunning 4K video, but it's a huge storage hog. Alternate formats, such as MP4 can be shot at different resolutions, and produce acceptable results.
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2017, 08:22:19 AM »
Canon M3.
It does videos very well.
I sold my Canon 5D tank for the M3 and I love it. Primarily use it for video now.
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2017, 11:42:37 AM »
I faced the same SLR to mirrorless transition about a year ago. I had a Canon 60D with three lenses and it became a significant burden to haul around while hiking. I looked at the Canon M3 and it just didn't do much for me. Its been awhile, so I forget the detailed issues. At the same time I looked at an Olympus OMD-10, Mark II and found it a whole lot nicer. I decided not to go with OMD-1 as the body was over twice as much and I didn't see enough value to justify the cost. 

I also have an old Olympus E-500 (with a minuscule 2MB sensor) and a couple of lenses and the plan at the time was to buy the adapter and use my exiting lenses. I bought the OM-D with the standard 40-150mm zoom and planned on using the standard Olympus lenses I had for the E-500. That plan lasted through the first trip. 90% of the weight was in the lenses.

I quickly bought the 14-42mm pancake lens and the 75-300 zoom. The M.Zuiko lenses are the same or better quality (I'm not including Pro lenses here) and weigh a fraction of the Zuiko lenses. The only thing missing is a very wide angle lens (Olympus is a 4/3 format so the effective focal lengths are double the nameplate so 14 mm is actually 28). Olympus only makes one in the Pro M.Zuiko line and I'm not ready to drop $2K on a lens.   

I've been very happy with the OMD so far and don't miss the Canon. My daughter ended up with the 60D is happy with it so we won all the way around.
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quadna71

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2017, 08:53:11 AM »
The only thing missing is a very wide angle lens (Olympus is a 4/3 format so the effective focal lengths are double the nameplate so 14 mm is actually 28). Olympus only makes one in the Pro M.Zuiko line and I'm not ready to drop $2K on a lens.   
I too ended up with an E-M10ii when moving from Canon DSLR.  While not a truly wide lens, maybe take a look at the Oly 9-18.  You can regularly see them for under $500 used.  I'm also keeping my open for when the announced Laowa 7.5/2 rectilinear is available to the masses.  It's a manual lens but looks promising for astrophotography and even real estate photography if you have decent processing skills.

http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/lenses/m-zuiko-ed-9-18mm-f4-0-5-6-black.html

https://www.venuslens.net/product/laowa-7-5mm-f2/

Here are some Flickr shots of the up and coming Laowa:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/137268551@N02/sets/72157679920711224


« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 08:55:01 AM by quadna71 »
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2017, 09:31:05 AM »
Tom, I have found most camera manuals to be frustrating to glean the information you need to use. A better choice is to do one of two things, or both, go to you tube and type in your camera make and model and look for tutorials and look for a book on your specific camera.  I have found these to be way more useful.

The real problem with camera manuals is that while they do an adequate job of telling you how to do something, they fail to explain why you might want to do it.

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2017, 09:38:23 AM »
While not a truly wide lens, maybe take a look at the Oly 9-18.  You can regularly see them for under $500 used.

LOL! I was a full-time photojournalist for 40 years, just ending up my career a couple of years ago. For most of those 40 years, my widest lens was a 20mm, with the 14 being the widest for the last 5 years. The Olympus 9-18 equates to an 18-36mm lens. In 1976, I would have killed for an 18mm wide lens! I do use the 9-18 with my kit and while I wish I had the money to get the 7-14 PRO lens, I find that the 9-18 does almost everything the pro lens does at much less cost.
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quadna71

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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2017, 09:59:07 AM »
I agree - unless weather sealing is a priority, you can typically compensate with the 9-18.  Currently I gravitate more towards primes such as the 12/2, 17/1.8, 25/1.8, 45/1.8, and 75/1.8 and my 14-42ez being my only telephoto at this time.  Having so many economical lens varieties available between Oly & Pana is great!
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2017, 04:40:46 PM »
Here are a few YouTube vids for you G7

LUMIX G7 Camera Tutorials
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Re: Mirrorless cameras
« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2017, 03:30:50 AM »
Thanks. Yesterday was our first test of videos with the G7 and an external mic'. My DW was in the audience while I was on stage, so I couldn't offer any help. I was quite impressed with the results, although the video needs a little work in Corel or Pinnacle.
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