Moving around in a moving vehicle - NO WAY!

[Ian]

Now this is something that surprises me but I have been seeing folks post about walking around and doing things in their A or C Class while somebody is driving. I have just seen a post where somebody lets his children travel in the 5'er while highway mobile. 
 
Let me add a little disclaimer - I don't have an RV nor have I been in a van since childhood - but I have had a License to drive since '72 and done a lot of miles since then. I don't want to be seen as a newbie trying to teach RV'ers how to suck eggs but I just shudder when I read stories like that. And I am not writing this post just to stir up a fight so no nastygrams please, this is a serious question on a topic that I'm very serious about.

OK, down under with our National Road rules, everybody must be sitting in an approved seat and be wearing a seat belt while the vehicle is moving. No exceptions. All of our long distance buses and even our School Buses are being converted so that they have proper Lap/Sash seat belts. Travelling unrestrained in a 5'er/ Travel Trailer/Caravan is simply something that - when caught - would put the driver in a whole world of legal bother.

Perhaps once in a while you may get away with the co-pilot sneaking down the back for a quick cuppa - so long as the law didn't drive past and notice somebody moving, but it is against the law, and also against anything they teach us about safety.
Heck, they have just tightened up the Australian Design Rules about RV's so that they may only state the Berth Capacity equal to the seat-belted positions and no more. No seat belt, no sleeping capacity. You might have 6 Berth capacity but if you have only 4 Seats with seat belts then 4's the Capacity for Sleeping that you can state. Now that shows to me that they are pretty serious about these things.
I accept that you have dozens of States and just as many different interpretations of what is Law and what is Safety. We now have one National law and it is all I can go by because it is all that I know.

So why do people take these kinds of risks when pulling off to the side of the road for a few minutes to brew up can give the driver a break as well as the passengers, and remain fully with the law and with road safety? And as for letting anybody travel in a towed vehicle, NO WAY, I just don't get it. With the numbers of idiots out on the road today, and the situations that you can get in even if you are doing the right thing, taking risks just increases the chances of something serious happening.

Or am I just being a grump?

[Ron]

No Ian you are not just being a grump.  These are valid concerns.  I myself cannot imagine how anybody would allow anyone to ride in a trailer while in motion especially children.  We have seen a few trailers, draw type as well as 5ers, that have been in an accident and they literally come apart and chances of survival would be pretty slim for any occupants of the trailer.  It is also my humble opinion that any state that allows this has some pretty dumb law makers.  Even though the law in some states may allow such things plain common sense would dictate that it is a DUMB thing to do. Probably equally dumb as the story of the guy that set his rig on cruise control then left the drivers position while in motion to go to the john.  You are right the laws state that all passengers shall have the seat belt fastened when the vehicle is in motion.  Has anybody seen seat belts in a trailer???

All of the three motorhomes we have owned had more seat belt positions than there were sleeping accommodations and you are right there is probably a reason for this.

In motorhomes there are probably quite a few of us that unbuckle and head for the john or such while in motion and not driving.  Good idea???  NO but it is done.

No your not grumpy and these are valid concerns.

[John From Detroit]

When you gotta go you gotta go and there may not be a pull off handy.

But other than that I do like to pull off and park

[Wendy]

I would never let anyone ride in a trailer, not even the dog. In our SUV, the vehicle doesn't move until everyone is seated with seat belts fastened. In the motorhome, though, I occasionally get up and walk to the back to grab something out of the fridge or to use the loo. Is it ok to do that? Not really. It's illegal in most states and not really safe. And I do usually ask Mike to pull over if I need to move around the coach. For some reason, it seems sort of like an airplane..."feel free to move about the cabin but when seated keep your seatbelt loosely fastened."

[cuts_up]

I would never let anyone ride in a trailer either, but I am guilty of moving about when dh is driving.  Although the last time we took a trip I started moving around before we got to the highway.  There were a lot of turns and curves.  This went on for about 20 minutes.  I spent the next 5 hours switching between the copilot seat and the couch, trying to overcome motion sickness.  I was miserable.  Now I know to wait until we have gotten to the straight highway before I leave my seat, and I also now have Dramamine in the medicine cabinet.

[Bill42]

What about truck campers, seen kids peeking out the window above the truck cab, while parents are in the truck.

[Ron]

What about truck campers, seen kids peeking out the window above the truck cab, while parents are in the truck.

IMHO not a smart thing to do either.  Haven't ever seen a truck camper with seat belt either.

[Wendy]

Kids should have their rear ends parked in a seat with a seat belt fastened, period.

[cuts_up]

We never let kids ride in our truck camper either.  We have let our dog ride in the back, but he was in a cage rated for airline travel.

[Shayne]

Ditto

[Ian]

Thanks folks, appreciate the responses. So now I know that it isn't just me that thinks this way, that does make me feel better.
And yes, I didn't add in all classes and types, just some representative types of vehicles.

Folks, I look at it this way, if things like the attached can happen to professional drivers, folks who know how to drive and how to avoid accidents, then the rest of us have to do everything we possibly can to make sure we don't add ourselves to the accident statistics. I'm 55 and my reactions are not bad but they are nothing like when I first hit the road at 20 and I first rode motorbikes at 16. I have to drive doubly aware and doubly safe just to cover up my own shortcomings. Far too many drivers out there owe their license to back when they used to print them on the back of the cereal packets, come on, nobody would have passed those idiots as being safe drivers would they?
Oh, and I'm not saying I have not done silly things. In '76 I rolled a car onto a huge fence post because I took my eyes off the road to tell the dog to sit still. Yeh, how dumb is that! In '85 we were moving interstate (2 adults, 3 babes, dog, cat, budgie) and pushing it hard through the night and I woke up still driving along the highway with my hands on my lap. Yep, stupid is as stupid does. I know for a fact just how stupid drivers can be.
Down here they have a very effective Australia-wide DrinkDrive Slogan - and no apologies for the bluntness - "Drink and Drive, You're a Bloody Idiot". But they still do it. No need for paranoia but defensive driving should be the norm because they are out to hit you in every way they can get you, they just don't know when they will get that opportunity. I don't plan on giving them the chance

[ArdraF]

A couple of months ago I was stopped at a traffic light behind a lady driving an open Jeep.  There were 3 kids in it with 2 in the open back and unbelted.  Those 2 in the back were all over the place, totally unrestrained.  I couldn't believe my eyes!  Yes, it's against the law.  And REALLY REALLY stupid!  We don't leave the garage until everyone's belts are on, but we know a surprising number of people who drive unbelted.  We read about a study done in Japan in which they discovered that a large proportion of front seat deaths are caused by unbelted people flying forward from the back seat.

I can't imagine letting anyone ride in any kind of a trailer, and especially kids.  As for the motorhome, yes we do occasionally get up and walk around when the other person is driving.  But I try to make sure my hands are someplace where I can grab something in an emergency.  If I were less agile, I might not do it.

ArdraF

[Carl L]

I can't imagine letting anyone ride in any kind of a trailer, and especially kids.  As for the motorhome, yes we do occasionally get up and walk around when the other person is driving.  But I try to make sure my hands are someplace where I can grab something in an emergency.  If I were less agile, I might not do it.

Don't do that!  If your vehicle should suddenly stop over span of 50 feet from 30 mph, you would be subjected to a horizontal acceleration of 44 feet/sec².  That is 1.4 times the force of gravity.   Can you curl half again your body weight?   I doubt it.  Darn few people can.    If you have to go to the john, or get a drink of water -- pull off the highway and stop the vehicle!!   Consider it enough of a blessing that you do not have to use gas station plumbing.

[Wendy]

But, Carl, how do you really feel about this

Let's add to this pulling over to use the cell phone or if you're playing with the radio.

[Stitchy]

Just my $.02 worth.  Unsafe? - absolutely.  Illegal?  Yes.   And, you can get a ticket if the law sees you.  My SIL got one last year after getting up for something in the fridge.  Expensive coke.

[Carl L]

But, Carl, how do you really feel about this

Actually, indifference.  I will admit to annoyance as I try to get around the ambulance, or the medical examiner's van, at accident sites.

Let's add to this pulling over to use the cell phone

Oh yeah indeed.    Coming back from the desert at 3.30 pm on Wednesday coming out of downtown LA on the #3 lane of the Santa Monica Fwy I fell in behind MBZ 230SL doing 35 mph in 65 mph traffic.   Being I was towing I had a choice of only #3 and #4 so it took a few minutes to get around the MBZ.   Finally I managed to get enough of a break in #4 to pass on the right.   I glanced over and there was this white haired, middle-aged clown pressing what looked like a big cell phone or blackberry to his ear as he leaned low to his left -- probably to shield out all those inconsiderate people blowing horns and flashing lights at him.

Our legislature outlawed cell phoning in 2006, but the cowardly twits postponed enforcement until 2008.   Phah!    

or if you're playing with the radio

That is why there are pre-set buttons on the things.

[John From Detroit]

Kids should have their rear ends parked in a seat with a seat belt fastened, period.

True Story.  I WAS THERE (though not involved)

Family is moving, they have one of those mini pickups (you know, like the Chevy Love) full of household goods,  Driver looses it and the truck rolls coming to land on it's wheels, Some warping of sheet metal, mirrors broken, however for the most part its driveable.

Three people in the family, Mommy, Daddy and Junior,  Under the law at that time Junior was required to be strapped in with a seat belt and so he was.  He was sitting in the middle of the bench seat, well belted, minor injury from glass flying, the kind of thing I might do shaving, all he needed was a minute or two of direct pressure on the nicks, or stypic pen, band aid would have been overkill.

Adults at that time were not required to be belted,  Daddy was tossed from the truck as it rolled and hit the pavement hard, I'm not sure about broken bones but he had a real bad case of "Road Rash" (Abrasions from sliding along the pavement)

Mommie... DEAD

If you wonder why I'm big on seat belts... Remember I WAS THERE and saw it first hand.  This is NOT a dispatcher story as I was miles from work at the time.

And that is but one such story that I know,  Most of them are dispatcher stories, but not all.

[IslandHopper]

If those folks had never gotten on the truck in the first place they would never have gotten hurt...
Therefore they are dumb/stupid/foolish to have ever gotten in a motor-vehicle to begin with ... seatblets or no.

Why do there even need to be laws and name-calling about this stuff   If someone wants to go without a seatbelt, or allow their kids to do so it THEIR business... not mine.  I guess I'm big on personal responsibility and not expecting the government or other people to regulate my life.

I wear belts, and so do my kids, but I could really care less whether the person in the next car is wearing them or not.

[Don Jensen]

Does this mean you folks always stay seated in an aircraft in flight?

Don

[Wendy]

Does this mean you folks always stay seated in an aircraft in flight?

Don

From the cockpit, "feel free to move about the cabin but when seated keep your seat belt loosely fastened."

[John From Detroit]

To IslandHopper: The folks in my story were not ON the truck, they were IN the truck, the doors came open when the truck rolled and they were thrown out, Seat belts would have kept them IN the truck, inside the truck's roll cage and more than likely not injured at all beyond being, in the words of the king "All Shook UP" (however not as he meant them.

And to Don: Aircraft are a special case, however if I have to go to the flying head I do use the hand rail.  3 points is good in the event of turbulance.  I'd rather not dump till I'm properly located if you know what I mean (And I'm sure you do)

Or as the joke goes

Pilot "We have reached our crusing altidute of OH MY GOD... . (Stunned silence)

I'm sorry folks, the flight attendant just brought my my in-flight cup of coffee and spilled it right in my lap, You should see hte front of my pants.

(followed by a voice from the back of the plane)  "Oh that's nothing You should see the BACK of mine"

[Don Jensen]

From the cockpit, "feel free to move about the cabin but when seated keep your seat belt loosely fastened."

Next time you fly, see if there are any deadheading crewmembers on board.  They always have their seat belt snuggly fitted and rarely leave their seat because experience has taught them "clear air turbulence" can occur at any time with no warning. 

In 42 years of flying, I have seen so many serious injuries caused by clear air turbulence, that towards the end of my career I would turn on the "seat belt" sign for any sign of bumpiness and generally leave it on until well past the event.

Don

[scottydl]

yes we do occasionally get up and walk around when the other person is driving.  But I try to make sure my hands are someplace where I can grab something in an emergency.  If I were less agile, I might not do it.

This is a common misconception, that you will be able to KNOW a crash or turbulence is coming and have a chance to react to it.  Almost never happens.  BOOM you're flying through the air before you know it!  Even if you did see it coming, a general guideline to use for unrestrained passengers is WEIGHT x SPEED = FORCE.  This is mostly for parents who say they can reach out and hold their child in place in the event of a crash.  So for instance, a 10-pound infant in a 30mph crash (10x30) = 300 pounds of force!!  Almost nobody can restrain that kind of weight with one arm turned sideways.     Now just think of it for us adults.  A 150-pound adult (I'm being nice here) x 40mph (nobody drives 30 anymore) = 6000 pounds of force!  No human could hold on that tight, no matter what kind of advance notice or extreme strength/agility they have.  It's just not possible.  Wear your seatbelts people, they have an extremely high success rate in saving lives.

I wear belts, and so do my kids, but I could really care less whether the person in the next car is wearing them or not.

Your attitude will change on this if you ever know someone who dies in a crash because they are ejected.  Or if you have a job that requires you to see adults and children (strangers) needlessly die for the same reasons.  I have both.  I'm all for personal liberties and not having the gov't control everything, but laws on this are a no-brainer.

[John From Detroit]

I agree Scotty, but then as I posted, I have seen more than one person dead in a crash where proper seat belt use would have either 1: prevented the death (In some cases most all injury) or 2: Prevented the crash itself.  yes, I've seen those.

So when someone thinks about the idiot in the car next to them w/o a belt on.   I know of at least one accident where I'm 100% convinced had the at-fault drunk been wearing his seat belt the crash would not have happened.  Two people (neither the drunk) were killed in that crash.  And had he buckled up as a habit (Drinks will buckle up if it is their habit to do so) the accident would not have happened. or at least would not have happened that way and the odds are everybody would have lived.

He now has to live with the knowledge he killed two people.


For the pilot who posted about flight crews keeping their belts on.. .. I find that I'm most comfortable with the belt on as well when flying,  As I said, if I got to go,  well, then you got to go, else I'm sitting with belt on, makes it easier when the sign "Fasten Seat Belt" comes on don't you know.

Took a heilcopter ride over the city oh, around 29 years ago..... When the pilot took us out over the water I was kind of glad I had that 5-point harness on (The bird went down FAST,  Thankfully it stopped short of anything dangerous,  Actually, I know exactly why it did that (And why it will always do that)

[Karl]

Scottydl,

Actually, your calculations are very conservative. A 10lb. baby will exert an average force of 540lbs., and the 150lb. person comes out to 8035lbs. for a 1 foot stopping distance. If the stopping distance is reduced, like if you're thrown out of a vehicle and you head hits a large tree (and they usually don't move very much), the average force increases inversely proportional to the distance. Lets say the stopping distance is only 6 inches. The forces are now 1,080 and 16,070lbs. respectively!   

[ArdraF]

But, Carl, how do you really feel about this

Just getting back to this thread.  Wendy, it shows Carl cares about the framily.  He just wants us to stay safe.  Who knows, maybe I'll even start being more prudent about staying seated because of what he said.    Also, when seated in an airplane my belt may be loosened for comfort, but it's always on.

ArdraF

[Carl L]

Just getting back to this thread.  Wendy, it shows Carl cares about the framily.  He just wants us to stay safe.  Who knows, maybe I'll even start being more prudent about staying seated because of what he said.    Also, when seated in an airplane my belt may be loosened for comfort, but it's always on.

ArdraF

Thanks Ardra.   Let me make a point.  I specified a stop from 30 mph in 50 feet.  That is a hard low speed controlled stop.   The kind you would make if a car suddenly backed into a  residential street in front of you.   It was not a crash!  It was something that is in the range of normal driving.

[cougar3514v]

I was brought up using seat belts, so even if there hadn't been a seat belt rule for my son, I would still enforce it.  Life became easier once Matthew could climb into his car seat.  A couple of times, however, I have assumed my wife buckled him in while she assumed I had.  Seconds after starting the car, Matthew screams (and I mean screams), "Don't move!  I'm not buckled in!"  He was actually terrified that he wouldn't be buckled in while we were moving.  That's really cool in my book.  Sorry, just thought I'd add my own little story.   

-Dave

[scottydl]

Actually, your calculations are very conservative... The forces are now 1,080 and 16,070lbs. respectively!

I believe those increased numbers without a doubt... the WEIGHT x SPEED = FORCE ratio is a kind of generic "everymans" explanation of how serious crash forces can be.  Obviously there are many factors that increase those forces dramatically, that are not accounted for with that simple calculation.  Everyone just think of all those crash-test-dummy slow motion films you've seen in the past... even the restrained dummies seem to bounce around like crazy, not to mention the unrestrained ones.  The amazing thing is that federal safety regulations for auto manufacturers only require crash testing at 30mph... that's what you are seeing, 30 MPH!  It looks so much more serious to me.  Just imagine what happens at 45-70mph where most crashes actually occur.   

Seconds after starting the car, Matthew screams (and I mean screams), "Don't move!  I'm not buckled in!"  He was actually terrified that he wouldn't be buckled in while we were moving.  That's really cool in my book.  Sorry, just thought I'd add my own little story.   

Same exact thing here, Dave.  My 5-year-old son is the same way with his booster seat.  He has autism and can't really understand the safety aspect of being belted in, but he's so used to the routine of being buckled that he'll exclaim "Buckle me in!  Buckle me in!" if the car is in gear before his seatbelt latch clicks. 

[Carl L]

I believe those increased numbers without a doubt... the WEIGHT x SPEED = FORCE ratio is a kind of generic "everymans" explanation of how serious crash forces can be.  Obviously there are many factors that increase those forces dramatically, that are not accounted for with that simple calculation. 

Actually the formula for deriviing force is MASS x ACCELERATION = FORCE. [ f = ma ]   Weight is actually the force on the mass of a body caused by gravity which has an acceleration of 32.2 ft/sec².   Without digging into the math of the thing the numbers work out like about so:    If your motorhome is doing 60 mph (88 fps)  and comes to a halt in 10 ft. (ie crashes), a person with a mass of 150 lb. walking back to the kitchen for a cup of coffee will be subjected to a horizontal acceleration 387 ft/sec² which is 12.1 times the acceleration of gravity.    That 12.1g acceleration will impart a force of 1815 lbs when the person hits whatever is now the front end of the motorhome.   

Splat!