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Author Topic: Confused new guy?  (Read 1040 times)

WilliamPGF

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Confused new guy?
« on: April 18, 2017, 06:06:36 AM »
My equipment:

2016 f-150 xlt
3.5 eco boost
3.55 rear

If I have looked at the chart correct (and I have looked at tons) my payload is 1918 and my maximum towing compactly is 10700.

I have a family of 6 and because of this we need a little bigger trailer. Most of the models we (meaning my wife) have picked out have a dry weight of 7500-8500. So, I started doing searches and reading about towing to become more confused :(

I am so confused that I am nervous about purchasing our trailer. We have been looking at trailers for two years and purchased the eco boost because we thought that it was a match for our daily needs and would also do the job if and when we bought a camper. It was just purchased last spring so a new truck is not an option for us as we will be top heavy in a loan.

There are tons of post where the advice is a 1/2 ton truck will not tow the Trailer safely. Towing safe is important to me as it should be for everyone. My question is there an equation to say what the recommended weight you should tow if your tow rating is 10700. In short, if my tow rating is 10700 then why does the advice seem to lean towards only towing a 5000 pound trailer?

We live in North Carolina (Northeast)and plan on our camping adventures to be in and around southeastern Virginia and eastern North Carolina. With four kids I don't think we will travel any further than 300 miles.

Any help is appreciated!

WilliamPGF

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2017, 06:21:22 AM »
Gvwr is 7000lbs

WilliamPGF

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2017, 06:26:31 AM »
Also forgot I have the factory tow package

donn

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2017, 07:12:32 AM »
Your 10,700 towing capacity and stated cargo capacity are useless to a,man with 4 kids.  You need to load your truckup with family and everything they would normally take on a trip and visit your local scales.  That will get you a reasonable wcaled weight.  Subtract that from the trucks rated GVWR as found on the drivers door post.  Now, you have the maximum you can add for hitch weight.  Remember a trailers true hitch weight will be in that 12-15% of the trailers actual weight range.  Lacking a loaded trailer, use 15% of the trailers GVWR as a base line.
Honestly I dont think you have enough truck for much, but good luck anyhow.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2017, 07:50:36 AM »
I think donn is perhaps being ultra-conservative, but fundamentally he is right.

You don't have to look at a chart to get your specific truck's payload - it is on a sticker on the driver door frame. Also its GVWR is there. But that Payload is for a truck that is empty except for a 154 lb driver and fuel, so you need to subtract the weight of the wife, kids, trailer hitch ball mount, and any gear carried in the truck. It's usually easiest to put everybody in the truck and drive it to a scale, then subtract that scaled weight from the truck GVWR. Cost usually about $10 if you tell them you don't need a certified weight receipt. Once you know how much remaining payload you have, you can evaluate the max safe trailer tongue weight.

You can safely estimate the trailer tongue weight as 10% of the trailer GVWR. It will actually be 10-12% of the loaded trailer weight, but 10% of GVWR is a pretty reliable estimate.

The tow capacity also gets down-rated by the extra weight of the kids & gear. To keep things simple, let's just assume the 10,700 drops to an even 10,000 lbs. Compare that to the GVWR of the trailers you are considering. GVWR, not Dry Weight.

That takes care of the spec weights. What gets debated a lot is whether the specs reflect reality. Modern half ton trucks have fairly soft, car-like suspensions and passenger car tires. That makes for a smooth ride in daily driving but isn't the best for hauling heavy loads or resisting the tendency of a trailer to push the truck around when conditions are less than ideal.  When Ford says the truck can haul a 10,700 lb trailer, they didn't claim you will like the experience. They merely state the truck can do it without fear of breakdown or excessive wear & tear. Safe & comfortable driving is a much more subjective thing, so you will see & hear differing opinions.

Another factor is that a travel trailer is more than just weight. It has a lot of frontal area, a huge side area that acts as a sail in the wind, and it is top-heavy. Towing a 10,000 lb travel trailer is more taxing on the truck & driver than a 10,000 flat bed trailer. Ford addresses part of this in their tow guide under Frontal Area Considerations. Basically their rating is for a trailer that adds only 25 sq ft of frontal area to the base trucks 35 sq ft. Most travel trailers and all 5W trailers are considerably more than that. Plus, with a cross wind or with passing trucks the sides have a large effect, pushing the trailer & truck sideways.  A larger truck and/or stiffer suspension resists that much better.

I won't try to tell you if your rig can safely pull a 10,000 lb travel trailer or not. Only you can make that call. I can only say that the closer you get to the max, the more likely there will be "white knuckle" moments.

2016 Ford Tow Guide:
http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_16RVTTgde_r3_Nov12.pdf
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

massspike

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2017, 08:09:21 AM »
Another (simpler) way to calculate it: your GCWR is 16,100lb. Assume you are maxing the truck out so subtract its GVWR of 7,000lb >> max GVWR for your TT = 9,100lb. This will give you a bit of a safety margin since you will be double counting the tongue weight. I'd factor in an additional 10% safety margin so your TT's GVWR shouldn't exceed 8,190lbs.

My 2 cents: those trailers are going to be too heavy.

Sorry: meant to say this is a simple first check/test...once you have an upper bound on the TT's GVWR, then you need to worry about payload vs. hitch weight.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 08:21:06 AM by massspike »

Gods Country

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2017, 10:15:34 AM »
It's really not complicated.  The issues typically are the auto manufacturers are competing with one another with higher tow capacities, and the trailer manufacturers are competing with one another over their "dry weights", and the buyer wants to spend as little as possible to get the best of both worlds.  Now if you step away from that for just a moment and realize that nothing in life works that way no matter how much we wish it were true.

Fact: Your published TV towing capacities are based on the a base model, no options, a standard cab, and one passenger that weighs less than I did in college.

Fact:  The trailer manufacturers dry weight is based on no options, nothing in it, no beer, no clothes , no food, toys for the kids, and whatever else they sneak in after it's weighed.

This is why after doing the math (that has been provided), and knowing that many trailers are at or over their max rated weight, and most TV are near max weight with passengers and cargo (especially light duty vehicles),
most people, including myself, recommend using the max trailer rating, and calculating the true weight of the vehicle, to get a realistic towing capacity.  Then reducing that to about 80% of the new capacity, so you are more likely to have a good towing experience.

Just because you can hook up 9k to your truck and haul it 25 miles to a job site or friends house, doesn't mean you want to do it for 6-8 hours a day.  Sure if you drive 45mph on secondary highways that are mostly flat you may be just fine.  But when you decide the 300 mile local trip is going to be a trip to Yellowstone or Maine, you are likely going to feel different.  Even 300 miles is going to get old if you feel not in control of the trailer or TV.

I don't think the trailers you are looking at are dangerous to tow, but I am almost certain you will be much closer to your TV max ability than the ratings may suggest.  Ford may say it's OK, but they won't tell you it won't be fun.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2017, 05:07:45 PM »
Quote
Fact: Your published TV towing capacities are based on the a base model, no options, a standard cab, and one passenger that weighs less than I did in college.

The 2016 F150 is rated using SAE J2807 Towing Standard. J2807 is much closer to real world performance. The Ford Tow Guide gives different ratings for different cabs and drivetrains, but of course does not include optional trim. XLT and King Ranch trim can take away a few hundred lbs or more.

This article helps explain:
http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard/
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

grashley

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2017, 07:57:14 PM »
Welcome to the Forum!  cThank you for coming before the purchase!!

Much good advise offered so far.  My method is the same math as used by others, but may be stated a little differently.

First, find the yellow label on the driver door latch post.  It specifies the max load YOUR truck is designed to carry as it left the factory.  The PAYLOAD does not include ANY passengers, but does include a full tank of fuel.

Add up the weight of all passengers, pets, car seats, snacks, toys and cargo to be carried in the truck.  Subtract this from the truck payload. **       This is what is left for a WD hitch and hitch weight.  Subtract 80# for WD hitch.  Assuming 10% hitch wt, multiply the remainder, which is max hitch weight by 10 to get the max trailer weight, or max GVWR.

**  Weighing the truck loaded for camping, including passengers and subtracting this from the truck  GVWR should produce the same result.

If you take the published Max Tow number and subtract the weight calculated above, you will be much closer to your real max tow weight.  The max tow includes TWO passengers @ 150# each, but does not deduct for options.  The XLT will have around 300# of options, so these two offset.

There are many great TT and pop ups and hybrids which will fit into your weight limits and sleep a family of 6.  It may not be your ideal camper, but it will get the job done for now.  Getting out with the kids and camping with a safe setup is far more important than waiting until you can afford the camper and tow vehicle of your dreams.  Just avoid the camper from which nightmares grow!  ;D
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

steveblonde

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 08:37:57 PM »
Only fluids are includred DRIVER IS NOT
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually loaded (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5200lbs cargo/weight capacity named Kong


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh?

grashley

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2017, 06:19:47 PM »
Specs get very confusing!

PAYLOAD  or Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) includes nothing except a full fuel tank and all other needed fluids.  No driver or passengers.   The yellow label payload DOES include the weight of all factory installed options.  Payload in published charts do not include the weight of any options.

TOW CAPACITY  is GCWR  minus truck base weight, which includes max tow package, weight of options installed on 33% of that model, and 2 passengers at 150# each (since 2015.  Prior years only included the driver).  Tow Capacity NO other cargo or passengers.
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

WilliamPGF

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2017, 09:39:20 PM »
Thanks to everyone for helping with advice. We are in the process of waying out our options. Leaning towards a used tow vehicle.


Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2017, 07:26:50 AM »
The definitions of Payload, CCC, etc. can indeed be confusing, and tow rating methods have changed in recent years as well. One must be cautious comparing numbers prior to 2015 with newer vehicles, as standards were changing and some models were rated by new methods while others were done by previous ones.

Ford publishes this set of definitions which they used in 2016:
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/2016/16_TruckPayload_SB_v5.pdf

Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) is now defined in a federal safety regulation and is equivalent to Ford's Gross Payload number. No driver weight included.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

biggersm

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2017, 09:12:47 PM »
We believe in the SAE J2807 standard.  Please Google it.
Mike and Marcia
Flagstaff T21DMHW
Toyota Highlander
Honda Goldwing

longhaul

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2017, 09:09:25 AM »
Quote
So, I started doing searches and reading about towing to become more confused :(

I am so confused that I am nervous about purchasing our trailer. We have been looking at trailers for two years and purchased the eco boost because we thought that it was a match for our daily needs and would also do the job if and when we bought a camper. It was just purchased last spring so a new truck is not an option for us as we will be top heavy in a loan.
Just to add to above info..
 Ford doesn't help much with all the F150 packages they offer. This includes GVWR and RAWR.
 With over a dozen different packages offered over the years from a small 6000 gvwr on up to 8200 gvwr.
 Then those small 3300 rawr........ on up to  bigger 4800 rawr.
 
 Looking at a '16 super crew 174" wb 3.5 EcoB engine can have three packages ...
 #1...7000 gvwr....3800 rawr.
 #2...7600 gvwr....4550 rawr.
 #3...7850HD gvwr....4800 rawr.

 #1 package with those small 3800 rawr may have around 1300-1500 lb payload in the bed.
 #2 package with 4550 rawr can have around 1800-2000 lb payload in the bed.
 #3  HD package with 4800 rawr can have around 2400-2500 payload in the bed.

 No doubt the 3.5 eb engine can pull Fords tow rating but not all F150 packages are up to handling a 8k-10k TT.

 


 

blowout100

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 08:08:26 AM »
The preverbal " I can but should I thread".  When you have to get this nitty gritty on the numbers, most likely you are just too close.

Most of us started out with a 1/2 ton gasser, then realized anything over about 6-7000 lbs up and down fancy gap, yr neck of the woods, was like RPM nightmare up and a white knuckle ride the lighting down. There is a reason there is all the run away truck ramps on 77!  Even with a 300 mile trip that part of N Carolina and Va has tremendous elevation changes.

Then time somewhere along the line there was a up grade to the 3/4 ton gasser. Same result really. Even with the beefier suspension and frame the gasser just struggles. Again it can, but not the most pleasant experience.

Then the upgrade to the diesel. This solved the towing question of what can you tow and why. Then it becomes a question of how big do you want to go.

You don't need a diesel, by any stretch, However with a F150 I would not recommend a 10,000 lbs trailer, for all the reason already stated by other above.
2003 sportsman SOLD
2016 Crusader 40'

John From Detroit

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2017, 11:38:37 AM »
When it comes to towing a trailer there are several types of people in this world

Some ask the Salesman "Can my truck tow that"  Now understand for a sales man ther eis one and only one problem.. A contract with a BLANK signature line.. So naturally he say "Sure, NO PROBLEM!!!"  (f-150 20,000 pound trailer.. Think Monty Python sketch)

Then there are those who get something like and F-350 Custom (10,000 GVW)

Then there are those who do not want to ask that question above.. So they get a TRAIL-HAULER..  Alas it seems the web page for that name is no more and Wil-Ro no longer lists the Trail Hauler line

Peterbuilt Semi Tractors with RV size 5th wheels and set up for electric trailer brakes instead of air.   Yup  Will my Truck tow that trailer.. Sure it will and 2 more like it as well.
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Buggy-Bumpers

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Re: Confused new guy?
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2017, 04:08:10 AM »
Fact of the matter is, a Ford F150 truck CAN, according to FORD tow that much trailer; however yours may not due to the actual build. The other thing to think about is can that truck stop that load safely? This is why you hear a lot of us stating that you really need a 3/4ton or larger.  Bigger brakes, bigger transmission, better cooling, beefier chassis all these things add up to a more relaxed towing vice the white knuckle driving you would experience with a 1/2 ton.  Also you will also be able to still use the AC during the summer while towing and not have to worry about overheating.
The last thing is that your family will love it so much that you will need a bigger TT or even 5th wheel within the 2 years anyway and guess what? That 1/2 ton will have to be replaced anyway.
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