New to 5th wheels. Looking to learn. Some questions.

The plan is to replace my 1500 with a gently used 3500 ctd next year. Then when DW retires in a couple of years, buy a gently used toy hauler and go see this great country.
We want a toy hauler we can live in sometimes with the garage occupied (like when raining and it isn't safe to unload).

So, I am reading everything I can to learn as much as I can beforehand. This forum and others are great. Thanks for any insights.

I tow a utility trailer with my motorcycles & a 16' flat deck with bobcat often enough. I have a Class A CDL so towing doesn't bother me. However, RVs always have much more behind the trailer wheels than commercial semi trailers do.

In no particular order...
Is there some reason for the 20-25% of GVWR pin weight vs say 2000lbs? I mean, the makers can make the weight anything they want by positioning the axels.
I get why at least 10% is on the hitch for a TT but not the why for 5rs.
I just like understanding why. I am sure there is a good reason.

I understand that the propane is included in the dry weight of 5th wheel RVs. Does that include toy haulers? What about gen sets? We plan to boondock sometimes.

Thinking of a 5th wheel like a balance scale it is clear that the pin weight will vary up (or maybe even down) depending on where stuff is loaded in the trailer.
On a toy hauler is there some general wisdom from folks who have em on the pin weight after loading some toys? In my case I have 2 motorcycles @ 900lbs each.

We will be looking at units in the 14k GVWR range so we could tow it with a 3500 SRW model. The truck is my daily driver and where I live now a dually would not be practical. In a few years I plan to move and then a DRW model might work and toy hauler 2 could be a bit bigger.

Besides the hitches that convert a 5th wheel to a goose neck sort of thing, are there reputable hitches made with lighter weight materials? It would seem that the base & picture frame could be Aluminum.

Ok, enough for now - maybe more than enough... I didn't want to start a bunch of threads.

To touch on a few points, the 20-25% rule is used to estimate what the loaded pin weight of your trailer will be. My trailer has a GVWR of 16,000 and a pin weight of 3,700 lbs with no toy in the garage and 3,500 lbs with my 1,700 lb Polaris Ranger in the back. Toy haulers tend to have a little more pin weight than other fivers to counteract the weight added behind the axles. If you get a TH with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs, I would plan on about 3,000 lbs of pin weight.

I suppose manufacturers could build a line of trailers with a flat 2,000 lbs of pin weight but I couldn't imagine dealing with the overhang behind the axles on a 40' trailer.

Check out the Anderson hitch. It's aluminum and I've seen a lot of positive comments on it.
Bob

lone_star_dsl said:

To touch on a few points, the 20-25% rule is used to estimate what the loaded pin weight of your trailer will be. My trailer has a GVWR of 16,000 and a pin weight of 3,700 lbs with no toy in the garage and 3,500 lbs with my 1,700 lb Polaris Ranger in the back. Toy haulers tend to have a little more pin weight than other fivers to counteract the weight added behind the axles. If you get a TH with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs, I would plan on about 3,000 lbs of pin weight.

I suppose manufacturers could build a line of trailers with a flat 2,000 lbs of pin weight but I couldn't imagine dealing with the overhang behind the axles on a 40' trailer.

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Thanks for the insight from an actual user.
To make sure I understand the above, when you gave the 3700lbs pin weight without toys, it was with the trailer in ready to use condition. We plan on loading a pair of HD baggers at 900lbs each docked to Condor mounts.

I see from your signature you drive a DRW truck. My first toy hauler will be towed by a SRW 3500. It seems that a 3000lb pin weight should be doable.

Lynx0849 said:

Thanks for the insight from an actual user.
To make sure I understand the above, when you gave the 3700lbs pin weight without toys, it was with the trailer in ready to use condition. We plan on loading a pair of HD baggers at 900lbs each docked to Condor mounts.

I see from your signature you drive a DRW truck. My first toy hauler will be towed by a SRW 3500. It seems that a 3000lb pin weight should be doable.

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Yes, when I weighed it and got the 3,700 lbs, we were going on a four day trip without any toys in the back.

If you're at 3,000 lbs of tongue weight with a SRW, you will be very near the tire limits but yes, very doable.

The reason for the high pin weight it to improve towing manners. The greater the weight forward, the less trailer sway potential. That's a major consideration for tall, slab sided RVs, but not so much for low utility trailers. An RV is a huge sail!  RVs also carry heavier loads up front, especially with the forward storage locker of a 5W.

Dry weight is not a very useful number - nobody hauls an empty RV! Just assume you will be at or very near the trailer GVWR and don't worry much dry weight. With your regular gear onboard, even exclusive of the "toys", the trailer will be far above dry weight.

Right, toyhaulers are subject to more weight/balance variation.  Each one is different and some may be nose-heavy when empty or nose-light when loaded.  I haven't observed any consistent pattern in toyhauler weight or balance, so its just something you need to be aware of when shopping and again when loading the toys onboard.

Gary RVer Emeritus said:

The reason for the high pin weight it to improve towing manners. The greater the weight forward, the less trailer sway potential. That's a major consideration for tall, slab sided RVs, but not so much for low utility trailers. An RV is a huge sail!  RVs also carry heavier loads up front, especially with the forward storage locker of a 5W.

Dry weight is not a very useful number - nobody hauls an empty RV! Just assume you will be at or very near the trailer GVWR and don't worry much dry weight. With your regular gear onboard, even exclusive of the "toys", the trailer will be far above dry weight.

Right, toyhaulers are subject to more weight/balance variation.  Each one is different and some may be nose-heavy when empty or nose-light when loaded.  I haven't observed any consistent pattern in toyhauler weight or balance, so its just something you need to be aware of when shopping and again when loading the toys onboard.

Click to expand...

I understand about dry weight.

I understand about towing manners vs hitch weight on a TT.

What I don't understand is the physics of hitch weight vs handling on a 5th wheel.

Lynx0849 said:

I understand about dry weight.

I understand about towing manners vs hitch weight on a TT.

What I don't understand is the physics of hitch weight vs handling on a 5th wheel.

Click to expand...

If you're asking why most fifth wheels have 20-25% of their GVWR as pin weight, it's really not a rule, just a guideline for selecting the proper tow vehicle.

In one situation, I had to winch my skid steer onto my gooseneck trailer. It wasn't a fun or easy task and we only winched it on the trailer far enough for there to be enough weight on the truck to get traction. There was about 10,000 lbs sitting just behind the axles of the trailer. In this case, the trailer pulled just fine. If you tried the same with a bumper pull, it would be a disaster.

One advantage fifth wheels and goosenecks have over bumper pull trailers is the lack of leverage behind the rear axle of the truck. It's this leverage of the trailer on the truck that causes sway.

With respect to hitches, they make "posts" which will connect to a FW pin, and to the gooseneck ball.  DO NOT USE ONE, OR BUY A FW THAT HAS BEEN TOWED THIS WAY!!  These posts put torque on the pin that it was not designed to handle.  Cracked frames often result, and their use will void all chassis and frame warranties.

With that said, the Andersen Ultimate hitch attaches to the gooseneck ball (in one version) and to the pin, but it does not apply any unusual torque.  Same for the B&W Companion.  The Andersen comes in an Aluminum version that weighs less than 40 pounds.

In the interest of coordinating tv selection and trailer I have been trying to find out everything I can about TVs.
I read up on the SAE J2807 standard for TV ratings of current trucks (the standard, in theory, took effect in 2013). My 2017 Ram brochure states that it uses this standard to calculate its tow ratings.  One big take away which helps lots is their assumptions on the test truck. Since the testing is at max GCWR, it is assumed that the hitch is a gooseneck or 5th wheel.
They also assume a 150lb driver and a 150lb passenger, and 100lbs of option weight for the factory tow package. Also assumed is 250lbs for the hitch.
This is certainly an improvement on the past where everyone had differing assumptions.


DW has a spreadsheet with many toy haulers in it and lots of detail. Most don't list GVWR but we have calculated a value as a sum of empty (or shipping) weight plus CCC. The hitch weights are all over the place and I have not been able to correlate the hitch weight to either GVWR or shipping weight. So be it.

Some of our criteria include
- the ability to live in the trailer with the toys still loaded (leaves out TTs with toys in the kitchen)
- ability to access the bathroom without needing to extend slides (highway pit stop)
- haul with SRW truck (TV needs to be daily driver in major metro area)
- bedroom must have clearance for walking on both sides (too old to crawl across)

We have found very few toy haulers (5vrs) meeting our needs (wants?) that 25% of GVWR results in a pin weight that works with a SRW Ram 3500 ctd in a trim other than tradesman or maybe SLT. The upscale trims seem to reduce payload by perhaps 500lbs.
There do not seem to be many TT toy haulers that we can safely load two full size baggers. Fewer still that have a closed garage.

All this said, is 25% of GVWR still needed for 5vr toy haulers even with 2000lbs of toys in the back?
The RAM brochure assumes 15%.

I have started visiting Ram dealers and looking at door stickers (yellow stripes but mostly white) to gather variations based on specific models.

Thanks for the data above on one toy hauler experience?
Any others care to weigh (pun intended) in?

Thanks so much an apologies for the long post.

Lynx

Welcome to the Forum!!  We need sharp folks like you!!

Often, it is hard to convince people that options can add 500# or more to the truck weight, and this does indeed reduce the payload.  Your understanding is great!!!

Depending on the specific TH, your pin wt could be as low as 15% - 18% with toys.  While 25% is a good target, and a safe mark, it might be higher than actual for some campers, making that SRW fit more comfortably.  I'm not sure how to determine this.  If possible, could you get the TH weighed and determine empty pin wt BEFORE purchase, assuming loaded weight will be similar or lower?

Toyhaulers have a wider variation of pin weights, especially with toys (or not) in the back, and maybe an empty/full fuel dispenser there as well. There also tend to be various options for the garage area that alter the brochure weights dramatically, e.g. gensets, loft beds, and other furnishings. I don't think there is any useful rule of thumb for 5W toyhauler pin weights.  However, the laws of physics still apply and more pin weight still yields better towing manners.