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WOW, ok take it and run, however I'd still run this by the attorney he may feel that this guy is admitting guilt and maybe sue him after the fact for the loss you truly took.
 
Well this thread took an odd turn.

OP will you be seeking another TT or are you done?

Honestly if the damage looks repairable taking a 1K loss vs repairing is more to consider IMO.

My honest (and cynical opinion) is the seller is going to short you 1K, clean it up, sell it again, and make more money.

 
Modeladay said:
I may have shamed the guy into taking the camper back...sort of. He said he could come up with $7000 of the 8100 paid. With bank application fees and $65 spent on a new awning bracket I will be out about $1600
I will chalk this up to a lesson learned, I just need to put this nightmare behind me. I also learned that I can buy a camper but I cannot afford to own one. Again thanks for the advice and encouragement, we are to meet next week to complete the deal, I hope, at this point I still don't trust him but he did call me.
[/quote ]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Take the 7k...AND RUN AWAY !. then, maybe take him to small claims court for the rest ?. take lots of pictures before you hand it back to him !!!!, these will come in handy later !. i'm surprised he's even offering to take it back ?, in fear of a law suit perhaps ??. who knows ?. but what I do know is..take the 7k...and run very fast away !. other than this , thanks for the offer in your back yard..lol. I've got my hands full on my repairs for my camper at this time, this stupid rain we are getting here is not helping me get it back together !..lol.
 
Gods Country said:
Well this thread took an odd turn.

OP will you be seeking another TT or are you done?

Honestly if the damage looks repairable taking a 1K loss vs repairing is more to consider IMO.

My honest (and cynical opinion) is the seller is going to short you 1K, clean it up, sell it again, and make more money.

No, this has completely ruined me on RVs , I had to drag my wife to look at used trailers. She was totally against it and with this disaster Im hanging by a thread. Than again I may need one to live in... that or a refrigerator box? Yes the guy is using my money to repair the  camper and will resell it but I don't care. I need this titanic gone before my marriage sinks. We are seeing an attorney tomorrow, I just don't think it will do much good but I still get this vision of two old people walking into a court room with a jury trial and this punk trying to explain that he knew nothing of the damage to this camper and him taking advantage of two old folks. Do you get the picture as to how it might turn out?
 
This would be why you don't buy anything used before you have someone else check it out for you. If you want a camper buy a new one .
 
Modeladay said:
. . and will resell it but I don't care. . . .  I still get this vision of two old people walking into a court room with a jury trial and this punk trying to explain that he knew nothing of the damage to this camper and him taking advantage of two old folks.

Hello Modeladay

You certainly ran into a terrible situation on many levels.  I would have had the same reaction -- anger, that actually stems from hurt, because you and your wife were taken advantage of.  And it seems you are still in the vacillating stage of saying on one hand, you "don't care", but then on the other hand pursuing visions of a jury trial.  So I just want to offer a couple of thoughts, to hopefully encourage you to stick with the former attitude and move on as they say.

First, your seller is only liable for $1100.  The fact that you even got a loan, and how you chose to finance the deal is not their responsibility (as you could have perhaps gone to a credit union and had zero costs for getting a loan). Also, is there any way you could remove the awning brackett and return it so that you'd get at least some refund for it? 

Second, seeing an attorney has two outcomes.
1.)  You'll find someone hungry who gets you into a situation where your legal fees will end up being many times the amount you're out already.  Don't know where you are located, but most attorneys start at around $300/hr. and go up from there to an average of about $450.+/hr.  In a sue situation, it is typical for for an attorney to claim 1/3 of the awarded damages.  Even at a $1500.00 claim, that's about $500 to the attorney (if they are straight about it), which is barely an hours worth of services.  Therefore, this is not really an attractive proposition for a lawyer.  You also have filing fees, document prep/coyping fees, etc.

2.)  You'll find one who tells you straight up that you are better off to forget it and move-on.  It is not worth their time or your heartache to pursue this.  They may also provide you with the option of going to small claims court on your own without benefit of counsel.  Personally, it would not be worth it for me to pursue in court, but you may decide differently.

Also, there is no way any jury will ever be involved in this.  Juries are expensive-- and no jurisdiction is going to invest in a private matter claim of $1100 to $1500.  I sincerely caution you to try and remove your emotions from this situation and understand that legal matters are decided on FACTS, not personal circumstances or perceptions.

No one potentially involved in this cares that you are "old", and because of that age, you were taken advantage of.  That circumstance is completely irrelevant as to whether any sort of "breach of contract" or other law has been broken by the seller, which resulted in harm to you.  Personal circumstances do not enter into any of this, i.e. being old or young, having an earring in your earlobe, being tatooed, living on one side of town vs. another, race, religion, etc.  Such things are not relevant to applicable law in this matter.  I say this in an effort to get you to move beyond the "personal" and focus on the legal issue.  The age factor also works to your disadvantage as one might say, "you're old enough" to have known better.  Better to simply not go there at all.

As I think any decent attorney will tell you, you are gonna have to prove that there has been some sort of breach of contract -- do you have any written documentation or other proof that the seller committed such a breach?  I know that in your heart and soul, you believe the seller was aware of the RV condition, and I agree with you on that.  BUT, that is not the issue.  The issue is whether any law was broken, and can you prove it.  Do you even have a contract that states the terms and conditions of the sale?, as you have not mentioned that you do.  Remember, this was purely a private business transaction -- nothing personal.  Oral understandings do not go very far in a court of law!  It is the old "he said" vs. "she said" and judges are not inclined to want to deal with this type of thing.

On the face of it, without any sort of contract to the contrary, the seller has not admitted to anything by agreeing to refund the greater majroity of your payment.  He could rightfully claim that he refunded it to you to simply get you off his back, because you were harrassing him.  He can also claim no knowledge of the damage -- can you PROVE otherwise?  Or, he could claim, truthfully or not, he disclosed a degree of potential damage to you, which you declined to investigate prior to the sale, and then upon seeing the damage extent, you simply had buyer's remorse and wanted your money back.  This "he said"-"she said" thing can go on forever and you will not win based on an argument that you were taken advantage of because of your age.  It simply won't fly.

My only intent here is to encourage you to move past your emotional response (as I too have been cautioned to do by this forum) and realize that the only legal issue here is whether or not some agreed understanding about the condition of the sale has been breached by either party, and can you prove it.  If not, then you don't have a legal argument to pursue anything.

Based on what you have shared, I think your first response is the best course -- quit caring, get past this, and move on.  Focus on the positive $7000 you have, not what you don't have.  Dragging out a sketchy legal claim will only cause you to remain in discomfort longer than necessary.  It is not pleasant for you and your wife to loose $1600 and your anger is understandable (arising from the fact you feel taken advantage of rather than the money amount per se?), but if you can, just admit this was a mistake -- lesson learned. We all learn the hard way sometimes and that typically means money that is gone! wasted!, and it usually takes effort to admit our responsiblity and be okay with ourselves about it.  If you really are old, then you have learned by now that everything works out for the best in the long-run.  Regardless of what course of action you and your wife decide to take, I do hope that you'll find peace in this affair soon.  Linda

 
If you do sell it back to him make sure he gives you cash.  Sorry this happened to you.  Hope you can move on and find peace.  There are lots of great campers out there for sale.  Dont let this one bad deal spoil your fun!
 
Modeladay said:
No, this has completely ruined me on RVs , I had to drag my wife to look at used trailers. She was totally against it and with this disaster Im hanging by a thread. Than again I may need one to live in... that or a refrigerator box? Yes the guy is using my money to repair the  camper and will resell it but I don't care. I need this titanic gone before my marriage sinks. We are seeing an attorney tomorrow, I just don't think it will do much good but I still get this vision of two old people walking into a court room with a jury trial and this punk trying to explain that he knew nothing of the damage to this camper and him taking advantage of two old folks. Do you get the picture as to how it might turn out?


Well it certainly won't work if both spouses aren't on board with the desire to travel with a trailer.
 
Dreamsend said:
Hello Modeladay

You certainly ran into a terrible situation on many levels.  I would have had the same reaction -- anger, that actually stems from hurt, because you and your wife were taken advantage of.  And it seems you are still in the vacillating stage of saying on one hand, you "don't care", but then on the other hand pursuing visions of a jury trial.  So I just want to offer a couple of thoughts, to hopefully encourage you to stick with the former attitude and move on as they say.

First, your seller is only liable for $1100.  The fact that you even got a loan, and how you chose to finance the deal is not their responsibility (as you could have perhaps gone to a credit union and had zero costs for getting a loan). Also, is there any way you could remove the awning brackett and return it so that you'd get at least some refund for it? 

Second, seeing an attorney has two outcomes.
1.)  You'll find someone hungry who gets you into a situation where your legal fees will end up being many times the amount you're out already.  Don't know where you are located, but most attorneys start at around $300/hr. and go up from there to an average of about $450.+/hr.  In a sue situation, it is typical for for an attorney to claim 1/3 of the awarded damages.  Even at a $1500.00 claim, that's about $500 to the attorney (if they are straight about it), which is barely an hours worth of services.  Therefore, this is not really an attractive proposition for a lawyer.  You also have filing fees, document prep/coyping fees, etc.

2.)  You'll find one who tells you straight up that you are better off to forget it and move-on.  It is not worth their time or your heartache to pursue this.  They may also provide you with the option of going to small claims court on your own without benefit of counsel.  Personally, it would not be worth it for me to pursue in court, but you may decide differently.

Also, there is no way any jury will ever be involved in this.  Juries are expensive-- and no jurisdiction is going to invest in a private matter claim of $1100 to $1500.  I sincerely caution you to try and remove your emotions from this situation and understand that legal matters are decided on FACTS, not personal circumstances or perceptions.

No one potentially involved in this cares that you are "old", and because of that age, you were taken advantage of.  That circumstance is completely irrelevant as to whether any sort of "breach of contract" or other law has been broken by the seller, which resulted in harm to you.  Personal circumstances do not enter into any of this, i.e. being old or young, having an earring in your earlobe, being tatooed, living on one side of town vs. another, race, religion, etc.  Such things are not relevant to applicable law in this matter.  I say this in an effort to get you to move beyond the "personal" and focus on the legal issue.  The age factor also works to your disadvantage as one might say, "you're old enough" to have known better.  Better to simply not go there at all.

As I think any decent attorney will tell you, you are gonna have to prove that there has been some sort of breach of contract -- do you have any written documentation or other proof that the seller committed such a breach?  I know that in your heart and soul, you believe the seller was aware of the RV condition, and I agree with you on that.  BUT, that is not the issue.  The issue is whether any law was broken, and can you prove it.  Do you even have a contract that states the terms and conditions of the sale?, as you have not mentioned that you do.  Remember, this was purely a private business transaction -- nothing personal.  Oral understandings do not go very far in a court of law!  It is the old "he said" vs. "she said" and judges are not inclined to want to deal with this type of thing.

On the face of it, without any sort of contract to the contrary, the seller has not admitted to anything by agreeing to refund the greater majroity of your payment.  He could rightfully claim that he refunded it to you to simply get you off his back, because you were harrassing him.  He can also claim no knowledge of the damage -- can you PROVE otherwise?  Or, he could claim, truthfully or not, he disclosed a degree of potential damage to you, which you declined to investigate prior to the sale, and then upon seeing the damage extent, you simply had buyer's remorse and wanted your money back.  This "he said"-"she said" thing can go on forever and you will not win based on an argument that you were taken advantage of because of your age.  It simply won't fly.

My only intent here is to encourage you to move past your emotional response (as I too have been cautioned to do by this forum) and realize that the only legal issue here is whether or not some agreed understanding about the condition of the sale has been breached by either party, and can you prove it.  If not, then you don't have a legal argument to pursue anything.

Based on what you have shared, I think your first response is the best course -- quit caring, get past this, and move on.  Focus on the positive $7000 you have, not what you don't have.  Dragging out a sketchy legal claim will only cause you to remain in discomfort longer than necessary.  It is not pleasant for you and your wife to loose $1600 and your anger is understandable (arising from the fact you feel taken advantage of rather than the money amount per se?), but if you can, just admit this was a mistake -- lesson learned. We all learn the hard way sometimes and that typically means money that is gone! wasted!, and it usually takes effort to admit our responsiblity and be okay with ourselves about it.  If you really are old, then you have learned by now that everything works out for the best in the long-run.  Regardless of what course of action you and your wife decide to take, I do hope that you'll find peace in this affair soon.  Linda

Thanks so much for spending the time to write this, you are completely right . I intend to move on if the guy follows through and that's a big if. He has lied many times already and I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling. I guess we will see.
 
Stockfamilyof5 said:
This would be why you don't buy anything used before you have someone else check it out for you. If you want a camper buy a new one .

Unfortunately I can't afford a new and there many stories of tow year campers that are leaking. Maybe I'll get a tent, if that it leaks the only thing that will rot is the ground?
 
I read your post detailing the purchase of the Rv found to have hidden damage.  No one should ever be surprised by the depravity of one human being taking advantage of another.  Most will agree that self-interest will always take a front seat to the interest of others.  Incidents like the one you detailed reinforce cynicism in buyers.  Others say that when it comes to the topic of selling and  buying, sellers have advantage over buyers.  No one likes to be accused of being a cynic, but after what has happened to you one cannot help but to become cynical.

We too have been where you are.  We were angry, disappointed, and hurt. After purchasing our Rv, we discovered our "new" Rv had water damage.  We felt foolish.  We were angry that we allowed ourselves to be taken advantage. 

We immediately abandoned those false-guilt sensations and focused on the problem.  The "lemon" as we called it became our identified problem.  It made us feel better.  It kept us focused.  Our mission was to squeeze that lemon so hard that we would turn it into a peach. However, restoring and remodeling an Rv can quickly get expensive. So, we set spending limits. You said, something like,  "makes one wonder whether one can afford an Rv."  We agree.

According to your description someone knowingly covered up structural damage and replaced it with cosmetic remedies. This action alone is intentionally criminal.  Cosmetic remedies like plywood that has been placed over a rotting floor, support joists, and front corners were deliberate. In our case, our dealer said it was an "as-is" unit. Not a good thing for a dealer to do.  Since, there will be day when we hope to upgrade.  Would we go back to that dealer?  Not likely.

We empathize for what has taken place for you.  We all agree that there's a special place in the briar patch for those who take advantage of others. I have seen your last update.  I found it to be good news.  It was wise that you confronted the seller.  What I hear you say is that the seller agreed to take the unit back.  This is a good thing; for both of you.

All will agree that we hope that you will find just the right Rv for you.  Good luck. 

Biker Flex

 
I'm the type of guy who would not let this go. He offered to give you back some of the money but not all of it?  By doing that, he did admit he was wrong and he probably spent the rest of YOUR money. And that vent cover is a guarantee that he pretty much knew what was going on. When you walk away, deep down inside he'll be laughing at you all the way to the bank. I would definitely take him to small claims court. Sue him for your losses and court costs.  You don't need an attorney for this. Just go down to the courthouse and pay a minimal fee. You will defend yourself. Take plenty of pictures and record dates. Small claims court is nothing. I've done it a few times and have won all my cases. I despise leeches like him.  Good Luck.

Ps: After he gives you the cash (make sure it's cash not a check or wait till the check clears), tell him he will be getting papers served by a police officer to appear in court.
 
Modeladay said:
Unfortunately I can't afford a new and there many stories of tow year campers that are leaking. Maybe I'll get a tent, if that it leaks the only thing that will rot is the ground?
well, I was told, there are two types of rv's !, one type, is the one that is leaking ?, and the other type, IS THE ONE THAT WILL LEAK !. I thought this was very funny when I heard this, it makes perfect sense too !. no rv, no tt will ever be leak proof...EVER !. they require a lot more care than a house. homes are not subject to bouncing every sec going down the road ?, while rvs and tt's are subjected to this very hard while moving. soooo..keep your chin up !. most of us have been where you are ?...OR WILL BE WHERE YOU ARE !. it's a fact of life I guess in this world we live in today, not many honest ppl still around ?, but there are good ppl , and good campers !.
 
Rene T said:
I'm the type of guy who would not let this go. He offered to give you back some of the money but not all of it?  By doing that, he did admit he was wrong and he probably spent the rest of YOUR money. And that vent cover is a guarantee that he pretty much knew what was going on. When you walk away, deep down inside he'll be laughing at you all the way to the bank. I would definitely take him to small claims court. Sue him for your losses and court costs.  You don't need an attorney for this. Just go down to the courthouse and pay a minimal fee. You will defend yourself. Take plenty of pictures and record dates. Small claims court is nothing. I've done it a few times and have won all my cases. I despise leeches like him.  Good Luck.

Ps: After he gives you the cash (make sure it's cash not a check or wait till the check clears), tell him he will be getting papers served by a police officer to appear in court.
agreed ^^^, you don't need an attorney for small claims court, small fee, in and out, judge orders the claim one way or the other. pictures..pictures..more pictures, or it did not happen !. the OP has a solid case here, question they have to ask, is it worth it ?. if it were me ?, dang right..i'd take him to court. ppl like this need to be put in their place. I am a very honest man, I restore motorcycles, atvs as a hobby, I sell all my projects '' as is '' ?, but !!!, when my buyer thinks I put one over on them ?, I stand my ground, offer to help them fix the problem for free ( as long as they buy the parts ), because word of mouth goes a very long way !.
 
Peggyy said:
I still want to know what that vent is over your bed area?

The seller may have opened up the wall when he suspected a leak and this was his way of closing it up and he may have thought that this would allow everything to dry out.
 
Triple Slide Jayco said:
What is that vent on the headboard above the bed in the master.? An air vent.? For what ?  It makes no sense..

Either the guy who sold it to you recently added that vent to releive the moisture behnd that wall OR he liked to sleep and breath black mold. The guy is lying to you!!

It is a vent to no where??? It is screwed and glued to the wall. There is no hole behind it??? I know its there to hide something but I don't know what.
 
I had an RV repair person look at the camper today. He went over it with a moisture meter and everywhere it was dry, so apparently the roof at this point was resealed. He looked at the roof and thought it was for now in good repair. He believes that all four corners had leaks, he thinks that most of the damage is halfway or further down. His high estimate at this point would be around $3000. But he hopes to keep it less than this, he is also going to reseal the windows and fully inspect the roof and do whatever needs to be done there. I'm still undecided and I'm still waiting on Monday to see if the guy calls to meet at the bank to buy the camper back. I may not have a choice because he has lied before. Some how I need to come up with money to do the repairs because having it just sit in the driveway probably does not make sense.
 
Modeladay said:
I had an RV repair person look at the camper today. He went over it with a moisture meter and everywhere it was dry, so apparently the roof at this point was resealed. He looked at the roof and thought it was for now in good repair. He believes that all four corners had leaks, he thinks that most of the damage is halfway or further down. His high estimate at this point would be around $3000. But he hopes to keep it less than this, he is also going to reseal the windows and fully inspect the roof and do whatever needs to be done there. I'm still undecided and I'm still waiting on Monday to see if the guy calls to meet at the bank to buy the camper back. I may not have a choice because he has lied before. Some how I need to come up with money to do the repairs because having it just sit in the driveway probably does not make sense.
I know what you mean by it sitting in the drive way !!..lol. mine has been sitting in my drive way for a good while now !. slowly, surely, one day at a time, I am fixing my roof all over again. finally got a few dry weather days here, and I am '' getting it done '' !..lol. I have one small section at the front top to replace the wood, then I can put my new rubber down. $ 3000 dollars is a lot of cash to fix your RV ?, but look on the bright side, at least if you keep it, and get the repairs done ?, YOU WILL KNOW IT WAS DONE RIGHT !. dealerships are no where near cheap !!! ( i'm sure you and me, as well as others knows this ! ). but 3k is not that bad if you figure your doing it at your house instead of the dealership :). good luck, please keep us posted !.
 
Thanks all again! I appreciate the genuine concern and it sounds like many of you have had some experience similar to this. I really don't want to go to court, it's something I'm not comfortable with. Its Sunday and the guy is supposed to call on Monday to arrange to take back the camper, still don't think I will hear from him. I guess we will see but I'm leaning toward just taking the money and writing the rest off as a lesson learned. Its ashame because I could have used that money to buy another ass kicking machine, I have plenty of broken ones in the basement ?
 
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