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Author Topic: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck  (Read 645 times)

Steve Peeters

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May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« on: May 12, 2017, 06:59:10 PM »

I posted last Wednesday (about towing an Arctic Fox) and then yesterday morning on "The Right Truck and its Use." Thank you for reading my posts and for your awesome support during this past week. It has been a very interesting and stressful week for me. Towing is so confusing, but with your help I think I am progressing. I read your advice about going with at least a 3/4 ton tow vehicle and many of you recommended a diesel tug. I don't want diesel because most of my use for the truck will be as a primary vehicle plus the extra cost and higher maintenance expenses of a diesel. And, I am very practical so I don't want to get 12 MPG like I would with a gasser 3/4 ton for my primary use. If I only get 10 MPG or so towing with the F150 I am fine with that! You'll recall we'll probably travel about 100 days out of the year, hence tow the trailer maybe just 30 days or so. After giving the matter a lot of thought and talking it over with my DW we are thinking to downsize to a smaller product; A Nash 23 D.

I like Fords and I want some decent mileage with a dual purpose vehicle so I am thinking F150 again with the 3.5L Turbo Chargers and 3.55 axle ratio and 4WD. In a 2016 that configuration will tow 11,700 pounds, this might be a bit higher for a 2017 which we'd buy. If we go with the smaller Nash product it will still have many of the plusses that drew us to the Arctic Fox but its specifications may work with the desired tug.

Here are the pertinent specs on the 23D: It has a dry weight of 5,230 pounds and a GVWR of 7,000 pounds. Its tongue dry weight is 480 pounds. It holds 60 pounds of propane and 42 gallons of fresh water.

The question is will the truck I want work as a tug for the Nash 23D???

Also, what might the tongue weight of the loaded up rig weigh? And will that work too?

Thanks again.

Hammster

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2017, 07:25:13 PM »
I will reiterate, as may others, ignore dry weights. They mean nothing since you will never use the trailer dry.
GVWR is the number to work with. 10% of GVWR is the tongue weight to work with.
So, 7000 lb GVWR = 700 lb tongue weight. That weight, plus weight of the hitch you choose, plus any passengers and cargo in the truck all get added together and see if they come close to around 80% of the tow truck's Cargo carrying capacity (CCC) or lower hopefully. The CCC is on a label on the driver's side door of the truck you wish to buy. Some will say the label is yellow. On our GMC it most definitely is NOT yellow but has all the pertinent data on it.
Are you locked into a trailer with a slideout? The reason I ask is because the Arctic Fox 22G starts out lighter than the Nash but is 2' shorter and doesn't have a slideout. Although it is 6" wider than the Nash. I think the Nash or Arctic Fox would be a good choice. Having only towed the 22G with my 2500HD, I can't say how it would tow with a half ton, but I imagine the Nash would tow similarly. Meaning either would feel right at home behind a 3/4 ton and *might* be ok with half ton.
I think the CCC of whichever  1/2 ton truck you choose will be the controlling factor in all of this.
How long of a drive will your trips be? An hour, several, less?
2016 GMC Sierra 2500HD Denali. 6.6L Diesel. 4x4
Arctic Fox 22G.

kdbgoat

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2017, 07:57:39 PM »
I towed my old trailer lightly loaded at 8200# with a 2013 Ram 1500 5.7, 6 speed. I was right at the edge of my weight limits and had the good fortune to have access to scales to get everything balanced. I ran right at 12.5 % tongue weight. That Ram pulled that trailer loaded that way as well it's replacement, an F-250. But I wouldn't pull that trailer loaded with the Ram like I did the F-250. I was over 9200# then. Sometimes a bit more. If the particular Ecoboost you are looking at has the payload capacity to handle the trailer, you shouldn't have any issues pulling it anywhere in the U.S.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Wireman134

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2017, 08:05:04 PM »
Figure more like 900lbs for hitch weight. Max tow in Regular cab you'd be good for sure. 17,000 GCWR  sure helps but as stated cargo carrying capacity (CCC) is where you get in trouble. GVWR of F150 is 7,000 lbs. If your as built optioned truck is 5,500 lbs. your golden. CCC includes passengers also.
2000 Silverado 1500 EC Z71 5.3L 325 hp DS intune, Airlift, 34" Alu 1.25"radiator, B&M 70266 trans cooler, oil cooler, Vet servo, Mag- Hytec, Pro comp ES9000, SUV brakes
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Gods Country

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2017, 08:32:26 PM »
I guess it depends on the trucks configuration.  There is no way the tongue weight is that light.  Even dry it needs to be more then the stated amount.  I agree on assuming the tongue is at least 900.  I feel the trailer length is about right for a 1/2 ton. You need to look at the spec close. Personally I wouldn't want to pull much more then this trailer on a long haul.

grashley

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 09:43:41 PM »
Again, GVWR is the number to use.

At 7,000# GVWR, expect a tongue wt of around 800#.

The published max towing wt comes from the advertising dept.  It assumes a BASE model with Max Tow and few other options. Two 150# passengers ONLY! and NO CARGO AT ALL.  My Lariat in my sig has 550# of options.  Every pound of options, added passengers and cargo must be deducted from this mystical max towing number.

As stated above, every truck is a bit different.  Look at the yellow label for the real CCC.

Add together the 800# hitch wt, 80# WD hitch, weight of all passengers, pets, and cargo.  Make sure this is less than the truck CCC.  I expect this is very doable.

NOTE:  CCC - Payload does not include any passengers or cargo.
           Max Tow Capacity does include 2 passengers, no cargo.
I know, it's confusing.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
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It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

glen54737

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2017, 05:48:03 AM »
A 7000 gvwr trailer on a truck rated at 11700 ?
please check
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/2017/2017_RV_Trailer_Towing_Guide.pdf
an 800 hitch weight will be ok http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/2017/models/lariat/

These are just my opinions except for the ones published by Ford those are the opinions of the Ford product engineers.
Use my advise at your own risk.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 09:25:00 AM by glen54737 »
2018 Thor Miramar 35.2
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Glen,Nene
Mickey & Jayco (yorkies)

Dreamsend

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2017, 06:03:54 AM »

I like Fords and I want some decent mileage with a dual purpose vehicle so I am thinking F150 again with the 3.5L Turbo Chargers and 3.55 axle ratio and 4WD. Also, what might the tongue weight of the loaded up rig weigh? And will that work too?

Hi Again

Happy to see you're catching on.  First thought -- keep plugging away at crunching the numbers until you are very comfortable with what each weight rating means and how they are related.  You will be frustrated until it becomes almost intuitive.  PLEASE don't rush this process and don't rely on someone else's calculations.

Why do I say this?? Well, because I have just gone through the EXACT same exercise as you and as someone who has never owned a truck or a trailer but decided last Sept. to liquidate and live on the road fulltime.  I started out focused on the F150, researched and read everything I could and analyzed its suitability to tow the type trailer I'm 95% sure I'll get.  I must have run numbers and checked Ford specs a hundred times.  For my situation, this is what I ended up with.
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,104950.0.html

Before you do anything else, I highly, highly, recommend you not only READ, but spend time understanding the 2017 Ford Towing Guide. It is a great resource, and I think will help you and your wife tremendously.  Click on the link below to see a copy of it - bookmark it or print it so that you can refer to it as you move forward. For the time being, PAGE 18 is your Bible!!  Understand the table on page 18, because this shows you how the truck capabilities change with engine, cab style, drive train, etc. You'll need to know every parameter of the truck you want when you talk with a dealer, as they are sometimes (mostly??) clueless about all these important variations.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/2017/2017_RV_Trailer_Towing_Guide.pdf

Once again. Ignore Dry Weights -- they are useless for what you are trying to achieve.  Get them out of your head once and for all.  Here is what you need to pay attention to based on your most recent example:

Trailer Gross Vehicle Weight Rating = the amount of weight that the axles and tires on the trailer can handle safely.  This is set by the manufacturer and cannot be exceeded.  It is the combined weight of the physical trailer structure, all fluids, and everything you load into the trailer.

Always assume that for towing purposes and sizing your truck, your trailer is going to be at this maximum weight, which is 7000# for the Nash.

Hitch Weight = the weight of the hitch that connects the vehicles also has to be towed.  I think these are 100 to 200#, so not real deal breakers, but to be precise, you have to add this weight to the amount your truck is going to haul.

Truck Vehicle Gross Weight Rating = the maximum amount of weight that the truck's axles and tires are designed to carry.  Again, this weight cannot be exceeded.  It is the weight of the physical truck, all fluids and fuel, all passengers, and everything else you load into the truck.  For a 2017 F150 described below, this is about 7000#.  It is the combination of the REAR axle rating of 3400# and the FRONT axle rating of 3600#. 

(hint -- take a sheet of paper and write these numbers on it as we go along-- just reading all the jargon will make your head spin! Better yet, draw a simple truck and trailer, assign weight numbers and visualize how the weight is getting distributed)

Towing Capacity = is the maximum weight the truck is designed to tow, which includes pulling, stopping, controlling in wind, etc.  For a 2017 F150, this number is 11,500# with the following specs:
3.5 eco boost GTGI V6, 4x4, any trans. short bed, crew cab, and a 3.55 axle ratio, with the MAXIMUM TOW PKG, not just the standard tow pkg.   

If you change any portion of these specs, your weight and towing capacities change, and you see all of this by using the Table on Page 18 of the 2017 Ford Towing Guide.

Combined Gross Vehicle Weight Rating = the maximum amount that the total loaded weight of your truck, hitch, and loaded weight of the trailer can be.  For an 2017 F150 as described above, this is 16,900#.

The maximum your truck can weigh is 7,000# and the maximum your trailer can weight is 7,000# and throw in the hitch at say 200# That is 14,200#, which is below the 16,900 combined gross vehicle weight rating, so this is doable. It is recommended that for safety and for comfort that the combined weight (actual loaded weights as traveling) of your truck and trailer don't go too much over 80%-85% of the combined weight rating.  Your CGVWR = 16,900#.  80% of that is 13,520, 85% is 14,365#.  so again, you are right in the ballpark of being okay.  Only you can determine if your set-up has the safety and comfort margin you can live with.

Payload or Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) = the weight that can be loaded into the trailer or into the truck.  For the trailer, this is the GVWR (7,000#) minus the dry weight 5,230# or about 1,770#.  That means that all water, tools, clothing, fuel, gadgets, etc. you load into the trailer cannot exceed that amount.  It can always be less, which just gives you more safety margin.  For the truck,, the GVWR is 7,000#.  The 2017 F150 as described above weighs roughly 5,000#.  That leaves you with 2,000# you can load on the truck.  That load includes driver, all passengers, coolers, clothes, stuff, tools, AND THE TONGUE WEIGHT.  The combination of all this cannot exceed ~2,000#, because the axles and the tires aren't designed to carry more than that.

If you are looking at a truck on a dealer lot, you can know EXACTLY what the FRONT and REAR axle weight ratings are and what the payload is by looking at the Federal tire and load sticker on the driver's side door pillar.  This number will take into account anything done by the manufacturer. (see caveat below if the dealer or you are going to add weighty aftermarket equipment).

Tongue Weight -- the amount of weight from the trailer and hitch that gets transferred to the truck and therefore becomes part of the truck's payload.  For safe handling, this number should be at least 10%, and depending on how you distribute the load inside the trailer, could go higher, say to 12 or 15%.  Putting load at the front near the hitch helps to stabilize the trailer if something makes it want to start swaying.  Higher loads in the rear of the trailer will exacerbate swaying once it begins.  The only way you know your EXACT tongue weight is to weigh your actual truck and loaded trailer and calculate the tongue weight, but since isn't possible yet, it's why people say to use your trailer's maximum allowable weight, i.e., the trailer GVWR or in your case, 7000# and assume that 10-12% of the 7000# will become part of your truck's payload.  It's minor, but you can see that 10% of the weight of the hitch at 100 to 200# also gets transferred to the truck and is part of the truck's payload also.

So, you have ~2,000# payload with that 2017 F150.  Your tongue weight is 10-12% of 7200# (max) or 720# to 840#.  That leaves you to safely load between about 1160# and 1280# additional in the truck.  Only YOU can know how much of this remaining payload will be needed for you and your wife's weight, the dog, tools, food and whatever else you plan to put in the truck, but it certainly seems like you would have enough capacity with this truck.

Now the caveat that should not be overlooked, just in case.  That "book" payload, or weight capacity of your truck is for the one I specked above with the exception of the MAX TOW PKG. weight. The additional weight of that will likely add a couple hundred pounds to your payload calculation. Make a dealer find out for your what this weight is if you are concerned.  And, you would also need to include any other options that add weight to the truck such as a bed liner, off-road skid plates, heavier tires, etc.  Ford already takes into account the extra 100# for the 4X4 option when you use their specs, so you don't need to count it twice.  To be really precise, estimate the weight of any such factory options (I found that my additions were minor, under 250#) AND any aftermarket equipment you may add.  The weight of such items must count towards your actual payload.

So you cannot exceed
The trailer's gross weight rating, (and/or the weight on any pair of axles)
The truck's gross weight rating,
The truck's payload (load capacity)
The truck's towing capacity
The truck's combined vehicles weight rating (truck and trailer)

From the above, a 2017 F150, properly spec-ed, looks like it can handle the intended Nash.  And, the eco-boost is a turbo, so less worry in higher elevations, and the torque curve on that engine is TOTALLY AWESOME.  I really wanted the ecoboost engine, but just couldn't do it due to how much my intended trailer is likely to weigh.  It was close . . but not as good as a 3/4 ton for me.

So, slow down, take a breath or two, and don't rush the process.  I understand the frustration, as when I was where you are now, my head just wouldn't let go and I wanted the answers right now!  Just keep working with the numbers, you'll get there.  You'll end up with an awesome truck that you'll love.   Linda

(Glen posted while I was typing and as you can see, he also referenced the Ford Towing Guide for you also)


« Last Edit: May 13, 2017, 06:08:34 AM by Dreamsend »
Linda with kitties Sarah & Samson
2017 Ford F250 Lariat aka Gypsy Rose

Wireman134

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 07:59:33 AM »
A 7000 gvwr trailer on a truck rated at 11700 ?
 will be just fine please check
https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/topics/2017/2017_RV_Trailer_Towing_Guide.pdf
if going with a lariat package your CCC will be about 2600 so an 800 hitch weight will be ok http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/2017/models/lariat/

These are just my opinions except for the ones published by Ford those are the opinions of the Ford product engineers. :)
There you go guessing again. 2,600 lbs. is max for regular cab. Maximum Cargo Weights (with minimum equipment) 1) Requires Heavy-Duty Payload Package option. (2) 17" tires and wheels (7,600 lb. GVWR). Or (3) 18" tires and wheels (7,850 lb. GVWR).  This is what the OP needs the 7,600-7,850 GVWR F150
2000 Silverado 1500 EC Z71 5.3L 325 hp DS intune, Airlift, 34" Alu 1.25"radiator, B&M 70266 trans cooler, oil cooler, Vet servo, Mag- Hytec, Pro comp ES9000, SUV brakes
2015 Venture Sonic 220VBH, 300W Solar/350 ahr AGM/1200w inverter, 75W Dual Band Ham base. Camping weight 5,100lbs on dual 2800 axle

The plunge

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 10:24:30 AM »
Hi Steve-
Dreamsend is on target with all the numbers. For the past year I have been towing an Artic Fox 25R with a 2014 F150 Ecoboost Supercrew w/ 3.73 rear end, max tow package. The integrated brake controller and tow/haul controls work great. The trailer totally loaded weighs in at 7880 lbs. The truck has exceeded my expectations towing this trailer. The power available when pulling a grade is more than ample and the engine does not howl, on a grade it loves to be around 2500 in 4th gear, you still have plenty of pedal left to pass slower vehicles when you need to and going downhill has been good as well. As far as length of the trailer, this combo is about as far as I would want to push it. When you do get on the road be sure to pay attention to wind conditions, the power available in all pickups these days give some drivers the false sense that they can drive as fast as they want to because they can pull it, you can't overpower the affects of wind on a surface area.
Good luck,
Gary
2014 F150 Supercrew w/Ecoboost
2014 Arctic Fox 25R

grashley

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 07:42:07 PM »
Excellent advise from Gary and Linda!!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

barr0208

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 08:08:36 PM »
too add to that when I was building an f150 with max payload and trailer package on :) the ford site showed the rear axle rating at 4085 lbs
2016 chaparral 31RLS xlite

Dreamsend

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 01:09:32 AM »
too add to that when I was building an f150 with max payload and trailer package on :) the ford site showed the rear axle rating at 4085 lbs

That is cool. Back between last Oct and Feb when I was solely trying to put together the purchase of an F150, The Heavy Duty Payload pkg did not show up anywhere as an option in any Ford specs or build sites for the 2017 models. I was seriously bummed and found it weird.  I called Ford Customer Service, and they said it was not a 2017 option, and I sat down with a dealer in Feb., asked about availability, and it didn't show up on their "order" list so they also said it wasn't an option.

I have since deleted my previous downloads of F150 spec documents, but yesterday accessed those currently on Ford's build site and "Wah-Lah!", the HD payload IS shown as an option again.  The HD payload option did not show up in the Ford Trailer and Tow Guide either (only bookmarked) since first out last Oct.  Now, it is listed and shows up in the towing guide online as well.  Furthermore, the option for 3.73 axle ratio was nowhere to be found initially (last fall-winter), but the dealer did show it listed on their build sheets as available.

Pretty sad that engineering, marketing, and production can't communicate on something this significant concerning "the #1 best-selling truck for 39 years".  Just can't trust anything these days!   

But, glad to see that extra payload is available -- it's something I'd likely pay for on an F150.  Linda
Linda with kitties Sarah & Samson
2017 Ford F250 Lariat aka Gypsy Rose

glen54737

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2017, 07:03:55 AM »
That is cool. Back between last Oct and Feb when I was solely trying to put together the purchase of an F150, The Heavy Duty Payload pkg did not show up anywhere as an option in any Ford specs or build sites for the 2017 models. I was seriously bummed and found it weird.  I called Ford Customer Service, and they said it was not a 2017 option, and I sat down with a dealer in Feb., asked about availability, and it didn't show up on their "order" list so they also said it wasn't an option.

I have since deleted my previous downloads of F150 spec documents, but yesterday accessed those currently on Ford's build site and "Wah-Lah!", the HD payload IS shown as an option again.  The HD payload option did not show up in the Ford Trailer and Tow Guide either (only bookmarked) since first out last Oct.  Now, it is listed and shows up in the towing guide online as well.  Furthermore, the option for 3.73 axle ratio was nowhere to be found initially (last fall-winter), but the dealer did show it listed on their build sheets as available.

Pretty sad that engineering, marketing, and production can't communicate on something this significant concerning "the #1 best-selling truck for 39 years".  Just can't trust anything these days!   

But, glad to see that extra payload is available -- it's something I'd likely pay for on an F150.  Linda


This is actually normal Ford will "phase in" various options as they become available for manufacturing. So they co-ordinate literature, ordering and manufacturing so that when you go to the dealer they can only order things from the brochure which are currently available. I think there is a diesel planned for sometime in 2018.
I was part of the launch of the F-150 and know that frames where a problem, maybe they weren't ready for the HD.     
2018 Thor Miramar 35.2
2015 F-350 CC short box 6.7l 3.55 axle
2015 Alpine 3510RE-sold

Glen,Nene
Mickey & Jayco (yorkies)

barr0208

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2017, 05:05:22 PM »
and also adding more horsepower and the 10 speed with the 5.0 coyote
2016 chaparral 31RLS xlite

donn

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2017, 07:44:51 PM »
Just to add fuel to the fire, you can likely buy a nicely equipped 250 for the same or less price than a 150 eco.  While the ecos have been pretty reliable you still have to figure in the cost of new turbos in those things.  And towing they simply do not get that good of fuel economy.  A nicely equipped V8 in a 250 will do a much more comfortable job of towing what ever you decide to buy.

Derby6

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Re: May Downsize To Trailer to Work with a 1/2 Truck
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2017, 05:39:17 PM »
I've read a lot of your posts, but probably not all.  At face value you absolutely could pull a smaller trailer with a 1/2 ton.
But, the million dollar question...Is that the right answer?  Only you really know. 8)

I saw you mentioned 30 days a year use.  If there are more than weekend trips, I fear you may really want the bigger unit; I know its only 2 of you and a dog, but still; a little room is nice.

Not to redebate the whole thing, BUT:
Initial 3/4 or 1 ton diesel cost is more.  I think you will find many 3/4 ton diesels MPG is as good (Maybe even better) than 1/2 tons.  And they don't ride like the old 3/4 ton trucks (tanks) do.  Mine rides nice.  Fuel cost is about the same and even cheaper than gas in some places.  Yes maintenance is a bit more, but when/if you decide to get rid of it; it holds valued much better than the 1/2 tons.  And if you upgrade trailer down the road you already have the truck.
  Apologies in advance if I missed a thread or some posts and rehashed some things you were aware of.

Good luck as I want to start snowbirding in 5-10 years and to get the 5ver I will be comfortable in, I will likely need a dually.  Looked but decided I should wait to buy truck and trailer then; stick with what I have for now.  Wonder how many times that changes in the next 5 years....lol
2015 Ford Explorer (Wifes Ride)
2011 Ford F350 4x4 Lariat Crew Cab/Long Bed/SRW
2011 Honda Civic-- (Beater with a heater)
2007 28' Desert FOX Toy Hauler             
TOYS:
01 Yamaha Kodiak 400
09 Yamaha Grizzly 550
12 Yamaha Grizzly 450
13 Yamaha Rhino 700 (Wifes Ride)
13 & 14  144" & 155" SKI DOO

 

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