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Author Topic: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via  (Read 2787 times)

Sanibelview

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17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« on: May 29, 2017, 02:20:44 PM »
http://bigrigvin.com/wp-content/uploads/RCMN-17V262-9885.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RCLRPT-17V262-3690.PDF
Did a search and didn't find anything posted here, so
Had CW call for recall, and you all know how much we love CW, after doing research and checking other forums the module is very simple to remove yourself. Couple of pins to remove on passenger side kick panel and mine just fell out, unhooked the white electrical connector and haven't noticed any problems except loss of volume and phone controls. I doubt we will be notified of any replacement.

edit by staff - change message icon to topic solved
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 07:50:20 AM by John Canfield »
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John Canfield

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 07:24:04 AM »
Thanks for the info.
--John
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2017, 09:08:02 AM »
http://bigrigvin.com/wp-content/uploads/RCMN-17V262-9885.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RCLRPT-17V262-3690.PDF
Did a search and didn't find anything posted here, so
Had CW call for recall, and you all know how much we love CW, after doing research and checking other forums the module is very simple to remove yourself. Couple of pins to remove on passenger side kick panel and mine just fell out, unhooked the white electrical connector and haven't noticed any problems except loss of volume and phone controls. I doubt we will be notified of any replacement.
Personally, I have a hard time accepting Winnebago's remedy as a long term solution for a number of reasons (more details on the recall itself can be found via the NHTSA website: https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls?nhtsaId=17V262).  :o

Winnebago is adamant that no compensation back to the consumer is necessary because the feature was "standard".   The purchasers of the 5000+ motor homes paid for the integration of the steering wheel controls at the time of purchase: the upgraded steering wheel is a $350 MSRP chassis option from Mercedes Sprinter; the Axxess ASWC-1 module itself runs $50-$100; the optional infortainment center on my Navion 24G was another $1600+ option; miscellaneous cabling/installation; etc.  In New York State, we have had active hands-free legislation in effect for several years -- disabling the steering wheel controls degrades the built-in Bluetooth capabilities.

Unfortunately, it appears that Winnebago has not consulted with Metra/Axxess Integrate (manufacturer of the Axxess ASWC-1 Steering Wheel Control Interface, https://axxessinterfaces.com/) during its investigation of the recall. The unit is improperly installed using a Molex connector (i.e., "white electrical connector") at the end of a 3-5' harness originating from behind of the head unit, running across underneath the glove box, and terminating behind the passenger side kick panel (typically, an ASWC-1 is installed in the immediate vicinity of the head unit). A Molex connector is intended for power connections, NOT data connections to the Mercedes chassis CANbus  -- compare the precision fit of the 12-pin harness that plugs directly into the ASWC-1 vs the Molex connector that connects to the Winnebago-supplied harness. Additionally, Metra recommends that the wires are soldered for the best and most secure connection -- tapping style connectors (or crimped) are not recommended due to a higher chance of a intermittent connection or change in resistance values, causing issues such as Winnebago has encountered.   Metra's independent installers have successfully installed (without any interference issues) countless Axxess ASWC-1 modules on various Mercedes vehicles when they follow the installation instructions. Metra even has some custom plug-and-play interface cables for various Mercedes vehicles, including 2010+ Sprinter chassis.

I plan to consult with a qualified local installer prior to just blindly ripping out parts.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2017, 06:52:48 PM »
Thanks for your info, very informative.

(I plan to consult with a qualified local installer prior to just blindly ripping out parts.)

I'm positive you were referring to CW, and I'm sure I would take more care in performing the recall than what ever CW flunky they assigned to the project. Since I had several codes that came up over the last trip, I didn't want to take a chance.
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2017, 07:06:06 PM »
Thanks for your info, very informative.

(I plan to consult with a qualified local installer prior to just blindly ripping out parts.)

I'm positive you were referring to CW, and I'm sure I would take more care in performing the recall than what ever CW flunky they assigned to the project. Since I had several codes that came up over the last trip, I didn't want to take a chance.
Actually, I was referring to Winnebago's "solution". When I talked to the Technical Service Manager at Metra/Axxess Integrate after first learning of the recall, they had no prior knowledge of the recall (i.e., Winnebago never contacted or consulted with them). I actually have an appointment with an independent installer (premier high end car audio shop) on Saturday morning to have the module installed properly (i.e., per Metra's instructions).

For the record, I have not experienced any issues to date. The intermittent nature of the issue (i.e., only some customers) as well as replacing the module itself not resolving the problem lends credibility to Metra's assessment of the issues.
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John Canfield

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 07:10:15 PM »
So the Winnebago solution to the issue was removing the offending volume control feature? Good grief, that's disappointing.

Do you have any particular engineering data that demonstrates the insuitability of those particular Molex connectors for high speed data? I've been around Molex connectors for 40+ years, they were used extensively in comm equipment going way back but I have no idea what their engineering limitations are.

About solder vs crimp connection.  Always a fun topic. I've been a proponent of a soldered connection vs crimp but I've had an epiphany. Crimp is preferred where there is movement involved, i.e., a vehicle,  aircraft,  etc.
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2017, 07:24:38 PM »
So the Winnebago solution to the issue was removing the offending volume control feature? Good grief, that's disappointing.

Do you have any particular engineering data that demonstrates the insuitability of those particular Molex connectors for high speed data? I've been around Molex connectors for 40+ years, they were used extensively in comm equipment going way back but I have no idea what their engineering limitations are.

About solder vs crimp connection.  Always a fun topic. I've been a proponent of a soldered connection vs crimp but I've had an epiphany. Crimp is preferred where there is movement involved, i.e., a vehicle,  aircraft,  etc.
I am relying on Metra's experience with respect to the Molex connectors. They state that the Molex connectors are designed for 14-16 gauge wires, and the ASWC-1 uses 20 gauge wiring -- the crimps would tend to be loose on the smaller wires. Also, the pins move within the Molex connector, potentially causing intermittent connections to the CANbus. All of this does not even take into account how Winnebago made the connections behind the head unit. I'll have more info Saturday once they take a look.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2017, 07:16:45 AM »
Really appreciate your follow up with this issue and looking forward to your results. As a follow up on my View, had service scheduled, and had noted the code problems and informed MB of the recall. They found a faulty wheel speed sensor was the cause of my issues. So it seems that I haven't had any problems with the Axxess steering wheel control unit. Will probably leave it out and see if I miss the phone and volume function. 
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2017, 07:40:55 AM »
Really appreciate your follow up with this issue and looking forward to your results. As a follow up on my View, had service scheduled, and had noted the code problems and informed MB of the recall. They found a faulty wheel speed sensor was the cause of my issues. So it seems that I haven't had any problems with the Axxess steering wheel control unit. Will probably leave it out and see if I miss the phone and volume function.
After buying a $130K MSRP unit new, I expect to get what I pay for, one way or another. Winnebago's answer that I can just use a Bluetooth headset does not hold water. I have steering wheel controls on my car as well, and I am used to using them. Once I officially receive the recall in the mail, I plan to pursue the issue with the appropriate Federal and state agencies.

Metra has been bending over backwards trying to assist once I made them aware of the recall. The Technical Support Manager actually contacted the independent installer on my behalf, and we have had some three-way e-mail exchanges going. I could "see" them banging their heads against the wall when the looked at the pictures of the installation behind the kick panel that I sent. ::) Tomorrow was the earliest appointment that fit my schedule as the installer is about an hour's drive.
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John Canfield

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2017, 07:41:40 AM »
I am relying on Metra's experience with respect to the Molex connectors. They state that the Molex connectors are designed for 14-16 gauge wires, and the ASWC-1 uses 20 gauge wiring -- the crimps would tend to be loose on the smaller wires. ..
LOL. Maybe Metra doesn't realize that Molex makes a variety of connectors from tiny ones to larger ones.
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2017, 08:17:47 AM »
LOL. Maybe Metra doesn't realize that Molex makes a variety of connectors from tiny ones to larger ones.
But Winnebago used the larger ones -- Metra made the comment based upon the picture that I sent. The Winnebago harness is heavier gauge wire, but the same crimps are used for the 20 gauge Metra harness, too.
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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2017, 08:49:57 AM »
Ah so, I have a bunch of those Molex style connectors. While not ideal, crimping a 20 gauge wire into a 14-16 gauge connector can work. When I need to do same, I'll fold over the smaller gauge wire two or three times to provide more bulk for the connector. I would have to examine the particular connector to form an opinion about the connector. Be that as it may, I do not see this as a fatal flaw. (My part time job while going to college was wiring aircraft ground radios on an assembly line - all done by hand. And professionally I was a tech for a few years servicing comm equipment. I'm an Extra Class ham, etc., etc. Been around this stuff forever in other words.)
--John
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2017, 09:15:07 AM »
Ah so, I have a bunch of those Molex style connectors. While not ideal, crimping a 20 gauge wire into a 14-16 gauge connector can work. When I need to do same, I'll fold over the smaller gauge wire two or three times to provide more bulk for the connector. I would have to examine the particular connector to form an opinion about the connector. Be that as it may, I do not see this as a fatal flaw. (My part time job while going to college was wiring aircraft ground radios on an assembly line - all done by hand. And professionally I was a tech for a few years servicing comm equipment. I'm an Extra Class ham, etc., etc. Been around this stuff forever in other words.)
The CANbus is a slightly different beast. Some interesting reading (https://www.mbca.org/star-article/september-october-2012/modern-tech-concerning-can-bus):

Quote
A CAN bus replaces the traditional wiring harness composed of a thick bundle of multicolored wiring wrapped in plastic with just two wires. One is the CAN-high wire, the other is the CAN-low wire. The two wires are twisted or braided along their length to limit the amount of electrical noise that can enter the wiring, and both wires are connected to every device on the network. Two wires are used because, in a CAN bus, signals may be redundantly “pulled up” on one wire or “pulled down” on the other. In electronic engineering, this is known as dominant recessive logic for signal transmission. Because of this setup, CAN bus networks are virtually immune from electrical interference caused by external devices that are not part of the network. Interference can still disrupt a CAN network, but such problems are rare.

Winnebago's extension harness is not twisted or braided, possibly causing the interference.  Additionally, the article discusses improperly installed add-on components, bad connections, etc., all of which support Metra's theories.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2017, 10:19:50 AM »
TheS1R great info and looking forward to your follow up with the installer.
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John Canfield

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2017, 11:58:41 AM »
...Winnebago's extension harness is not twisted or braided, possibly causing the interference.  Additionally, the article discusses improperly installed add-on components, bad connections, etc., all of which support Metra's theories.
I haven't worked with CAN bus but a quick overview of the protocol shows it's low speed (1 Mbit <= 40 meters), I have no idea how sensitive it is to noise immunity but twisted wiring is always a good practice to minimize noise induction.  As far as Winnie's wiring harness being at fault, I would want a mixed signal scope on the line with a CAN bus data analyzer to actually see what's happening instead of arbitrarily pointing fingers (as some vendors like to do, been down that road before.)
--John
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2017, 04:33:41 PM »
Repairs (aka proper installation per instructions) completed.  Technician's (aka shop owner's) comments as documented in the invoice:

     R&R AWSC MODULE. CONNECT AT METRA'S RECOMMENDED LOCATIONS.
     CUSTOMER MADE AWARE OF FULL INSTALLATION AND ISSUES.
     ASWC NOT PROPERLY INSTALLED.
     MOLEX CONNECTORS ARE TOO LARGE FOR 16-22GA WIRE CONNECTIONS.
     CAN DATA CONNECTIONS MADE AT HAZARD SWITCH LOCATION PER
       MERCEDES / METRA RECOMMENDATION.
     MOLEX AND SW CONTROL CONNECTION MADE BY WINNEBAGO HAVE
       BEEN DISCONNECTED AND ISOLATED.

I have the original Metra harness with the Winnebago-added Molex connector.  One of the wires was so loose that it came out of the Molex crimp as I examined it!  The shop actually had a new Metra harness that they used when reinstalling the ASWC-1 behind the head unit.

It is no mystery as to why Winnebago customers experienced CANbus errors!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 04:58:06 PM by TheS1R »
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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2017, 07:49:26 AM »
Glad you got it fixed. I'll ask my contact at Winnebago to look over at this situation.
--John
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2017, 11:32:05 AM »
Thanks John, it's a shame, you would hope Winnebago would handle this differently. Altho as history has shown it takes several deaths to get major auto makers to change a small dollar part. Also, I would like clarification on where or how the Axxess unit is connected to the CANbus system. If the module to be removed is connecting via a Winnebago harness with questionable Molex connectors, is just removing the Axxess module and not removing the harness from behind the head unit going to still cause the same problems. If the recall is to also remove the harness, that didn't seem clear to what's been discussed or maybe I'm mistaken.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2017, 11:50:23 AM »
TheS1R, can you go into detail what your installer accomplished. Was the original Axxess unit used or is what you call the ASWC-1 a new unit. Haven't looked but is getting to the back of the head unit pretty involved. Appreciate your feedback.

After rereading this thread, looks like I need a good audio installer, this is above my pay grade and sure don't want to take a chance and sure wouldn't trust CW.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 12:47:57 PM by Sanibelview »
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2017, 06:53:52 AM »
Thanks John, it's a shame, you would hope Winnebago would handle this differently. Altho as history has shown it takes several deaths to get major auto makers to change a small dollar part. Also, I would like clarification on where or how the Axxess unit is connected to the CANbus system. If the module to be removed is connecting via a Winnebago harness with questionable Molex connectors, is just removing the Axxess module and not removing the harness from behind the head unit going to still cause the same problems. If the recall is to also remove the harness, that didn't seem clear to what's been discussed or maybe I'm mistaken.
The Axxess ASWC-1 as installed by Winnebago is located behind the kick panel on the right passenger side of the cab.  Winnebago runs their own harness from behind the head unit, underneath the glove box, and behind the kick panel -- it is terminated by the questionable Molex connector.  Winnebago then installed the other end of the Molex connector to the Metra-provided generic harness -- the Metra harness plugs directly into the ASWC-1.  According to Winnebago's TSB (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2017/RCRIT-17V262-4132.pdf), the ASWC-1 and Metra harness are removed and disposed of -- the Winnebago harness with 12V power and CANbus connections (not twisted pair) are left in place, terminated with the now unused Molex connector.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 09:57:17 AM by TheS1R »
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2017, 06:59:15 AM »
TheS1R, can you go into detail what your installer accomplished. Was the original Axxess unit used or is what you call the ASWC-1 a new unit. Haven't looked but is getting to the back of the head unit pretty involved. Appreciate your feedback.

After rereading this thread, looks like I need a good audio installer, this is above my pay grade and sure don't want to take a chance and sure wouldn't trust CW.
  • Original ASWC-1 reused (aka "the Axxess radio volume control module" in Winnebago terminology). (reference http://www.metraonline.com/part/ASWC-1)
  • New Metra harness used.
  • All connections to Winnebago harness disconnected and isolated behind head unit (i.e., Molex connector behind kick panel no longer "live").
  • ASWC-1 installed using only the Metra harness behind the head unit to the CANbus access point using soldered connections.
Total job took two hours, but the owner estimates that they could now repeat in an hour.  They were meticulous as far as removing/reinstalling the dash panels in order to pull the head unit to properly install the ASWC-1.

I added a picture of what you find behind the head unit.  :o
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 11:11:24 AM by TheS1R »
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John Canfield

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2017, 04:18:08 PM »
Winnebago has been fielding calls and emails about this concern so I'm confident they will follow up. If I hear anything I'll advise.
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2017, 04:44:33 PM »
I have been in contact with Winnebago over the course of the last several weeks. They are adamant that removal per the TSB is the only (and final) solution, and there will be no compensation to owners for removal of features.
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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 04:58:21 PM »
We'll see.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2017, 05:27:59 PM »
As with my past dealings with Winnebago, just take care of it yourself, as TheS1R has done, to relieve yourself from the headache of taking it to CW, submit the repair to Winnebago and they end up paying about half. Wonder if they will cover to making it right, instead of just discarding their screw up. (IE, their blatant disregard of MB protocols)
TheS1R, did the audio shop have to order the correct Metra harness or is that something most have in stock. Also does the ASWC-1 retain its programming. Always appreciate all involved in getting to a solution.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 05:45:58 PM by Sanibelview »
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2017, 05:33:52 PM »
I have been in contact with Winnebago over the course of the last several weeks. They are adamant that removal per the TSB is the only (and final) solution, and there will be no compensation to owners for removal of features.
Anyone know a good class action attorney
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TheS1R

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2017, 06:30:43 PM »
... TheS1R, did the audio shop have to order the correct Metra harness or is that something most have in stock. Also does the ASWC-1 retain its programming. ...
The had them in stock since one comes by default with each ASWC-1 -- the shop has extras since they often use one of Metra's vehicle-specific custom harnesses in lieu of the generic one.  They only charged me for labor, providing the harness at no charge.  The ASWC-1 definitely retains its programming when it is unplugged ("Non-volatile memory retains the steering wheel control settings even if the battery is disconnected or the ASWC-1 is removed from the vehicle.").

BTW, the shop owner was more than fair with the charges.  They spent well more than the two hours that he billed investigating the "can of worms" behind the dash as well as remedying the situation.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:25:48 PM by TheS1R »
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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2017, 08:43:00 AM »
Anyone know a good class action attorney
Don't go there, please review forum rules.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2017, 08:52:31 AM »
Sorry, delete if you need to.
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Sanibelview

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Re: 17V-262 recall 2014-2017 View-Navion-Via
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2017, 03:47:39 PM »
So after a chain of 6 emails back and forth from or@winnebagoind.com they have basically told me to pound sand, the end. Even after pointing out that Axxess and Mercedes has said Winnebagos harness is the primary cause of the recall. Pisses me off, but i guess you have to fix it yourself or live without it. Not the way a customer should be treated and expect repeat business.

And this is their tag line on the end of their screw you email

Thank you for being a customer!

I apologize if this is violating forum rules, I am just stating my experience in dealing with this recall. Winnebago is doing their own damage to their reputation by the way they are handling this recall.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 04:26:11 PM by Sanibelview »
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