Insulation Claims

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butchiiii

butchiiii

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Joined
Sep 8, 2014
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347
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Sorry folks, We are full of questions today. The Montana FWs claim to be 4 season ready. Is this true
or just marketing hype. See their mfg brochure claim below.


    Tested and approved for 0 degree usage since 2005
    Wire & frame for 3rd A/C
    (R-38 Equivalent) Radiant technology insulated roof
    (R-21) Insulated main floor
    (R-15) Insulated slideout floors
    (R-11) Insulated sidewalls
    Vented attic
    Insulated and heated holding tanks and dump valves
    Enclosed and heated low point drains
    12v electric tank heaters
    Insulated in-floor water lines
    3? x 14? Residential in-floor straight line heat duct system
Thanks once again for all of the input.
Butch & Joanna

 
My wife and I have been researching 5th wheels for 3-4 years and, while in the beginning I paid close attention to all of those numbers, I finally came to the conclusion that it was, as you said, mostly "marketing hype". A lot of heat, or cold, transfers through the windows anyway but they all proclaim their's to be the best. An example is that Cedar Creek proclaims most every thing that Montana does but their numbers are:
R-38 roof
R-38 underbelly
R-38 front & end cap and
R-7 home insulation "inside" the sidewall (total R-9).
There seems to be a relative consensus among the owners that one of the only brands that stands out from the rest is Arctic Fox. I wouldn't want to live in any of them in 0 degree weather.
Bob
 
prfcdoc said:
My wife and I have been researching 5th wheels for 3-4 years and, while in the beginning I paid close attention to all of those numbers, I finally came to the conclusion that it was, as you said, mostly "marketing hype". A lot of heat, or cold, transfers through th windows anyway but they all proclaim there's to be the best. An example is that Cedar Creek proclaims most every thing that Montana does but their numbers are:
R-38 roof
R-38 underbelly
R-38 front & end cap and
R-7 home insulation "inside" the sidewall (total R-9).
There seems to be a relative consensus among the owners that one of the only brands that stands out from the rest is Arctic Fox. I wouldn't want to live in any of them in 0 degree weather.
Bob
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Bob. I was thinking the same. I've got a TT that saids that it's 4 season ready and it has done well in 30 degree weather. In 90 degree weather the AC has to work alot to keep it coll though. I'll take all of their numbers with a large grain of salt  :)
 
And none of them volunteer that the only insulation at the edge of the slide out is a piece of rubber gasketing. That is a weak spot for all insulation packages. Also note the only way you keep condensation down in a RV is to have air movement. We leave one of our vents open about an inch at all times. When we shower we open it up even more. It is just part of the system for keeping the trailer comfortable and dry.
 
I looked into this question as well.  I only found one video of an actual hot/cold test conducted by a mfg. (don't recall which one) where interior temperature was monitored.  RIVA does not have a standard test for these claims and based on comments from others on another RV forum thread, it sounds like much of it is simply unsubstantiated marketing.  Certainly adding more wall insulation, a foil wrapping, enclosing the underbelly, etc. are going to improve things, but to what degree is anyone's guess.

I spoke to StarCraft (Jayco) about this and they stated it was based on finite element modeling.  Having used these during my aerospace career, I can tell you that they can be everything from very accurate to wild guesses.  The accurate ones are built off of accurate empirical test data where the myriad of factors used in the calculation are refined.  I asked if they also conduct physical tests... sound of crickets.  ;D
 
The claims are valid but only a part of the story. As UTTransplant says, there are numerous places with little or no insulation, and even actual gaps, plus windows and skylights with a very low R-factor, etc.  Compared to the construction of many RVs, the Montana is excellent, but compared to a residential dwelling it still leaks hot/cold air like a sieve.
 
I don't think you'd be able to notice much of a difference on the inside between those that claim to be "Four Season RVs" and those that don't. However, there is a big difference in how some manufacturers protect the water lines and holding tanks under the RV. Some are completely exposed to the open air, some are insulated by a soft barrier, others have a solid barrier, some have heat pads under the holding tanks and some install their water lines and holding tanks in heated compartments.

We can usually overcome low temps on the inside with more furnace time and/or blankets, but protecting the water system during extended cold weather stays can be challenging if the RV came with little or no protection.

Kev
 
Kevin Means said:
.... there is a big difference in how some manufacturers protect the water lines and holding tanks under the RV. Some are completely exposed to the open air, some are insulated by a soft barrier, others have a solid barrier, some have heat pads under the holding tanks and some install their water lines and holding tanks in heated compartments.
Click to expand...
That's true and a very good point.
Bob
 
UTTransplant said:
And none of them volunteer that the only insulation at the edge of the slide out is a piece of rubber gasketing. That is a weak spot for all insulation packages. Also note the only way you keep condensation down in a RV is to have air movement. We leave one of our vents open about an inch at all times. When we shower we open it up even more. It is just part of the system for keeping the trailer comfortable and dry.
Click to expand...

We keep a vent open slightly all of the time. I read about the condensation concern somewhere in the forum.  :))
 
Gary RVer Emeritus said:
The claims are valid but only a part of the story. As UTTransplant says, there are numerous places with little or no insulation, and even actual gaps, plus windows and skylights with a very low R-factor, etc.  Compared to the construction of many RVs, the Montana is excellent, but compared to a residential dwelling it still leaks hot/cold air like a sieve.
Click to expand...

Gary so basically I guess we will just have to accept this and deal with it as best as possible.
 
Kevin Means said:
I don't think you'd be able to notice much of a difference on the inside between those that claim to be "Four Season RVs" and those that don't. However, there is a big difference in how some manufacturers protect the water lines and holding tanks under the RV. Some are completely exposed to the open air, some are insulated by a soft barrier, others have a solid barrier, some have heat pads under the holding tanks and some install their water lines and holding tanks in heated compartments.

We can usually overcome low temps on the inside with more furnace time and/or blankets, but protecting the water system during extended cold weather stays can be challenging if the RV came with little or no protection.

Kev
Click to expand...

Kevin so making sure that the water system is getting the most protection possible is something to look for?
 
Sorry I missed your question Butch. If you're still there... It really depends. If you know you're going to be camping in freezing conditions, it may be worthwhile to get an RV that has some heating pads under the holding tanks.

Most of the time, it's the water lines that freeze up, not the holding tanks, but you can do a lot to protect them with after-market stuff. My parents live in Northern Idaho and my Dad has wrapped the exposed water lines under the trailer with heat tape. There's a soft barrier under the trailer, which helps block the wind a little, but it won't prevent freezing. He also put one of those small 15 amp space heaters in the wet bay, with a fan that blows the heat around. Others have used 100 watt lightbulbs to do the same thing.

Of course, you have to be plugged into shore-power, or running your generator to power the heat tape and heater, but they do work.

Ke
 
Kevin Means said:
Sorry I missed your question Butch. If you're still there... It really depends. If you know you're going to be camping in freezing conditions, it may be worthwhile to get an RV that has some heating pads under the holding tanks.

Most of the time, it's the water lines that freeze up, not the holding tanks, but you can do a lot to protect them with after-market stuff. My parents live in Northern Idaho and my Dad has wrapped the exposed water lines under the trailer with heat tape. There's a soft barrier under the trailer, which helps block the wind a little, but it won't prevent freezing. He also put one of those small 15 amp space heaters in the wet bay, with a fan that blows the heat around. Others have used 100 watt lightbulbs to do the same thing.

Of course, you have to be plugged into shore-power, or running your generator to power the heat tape and heater, but they do work.

Ke
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Kevin  :))
 
Take a look at Outdoors RV. They have 2 inch foam sidewalls all around including slideout walls floors and ceiling plus thermopane windows and heated tanks. http://outdoorsrvmfg.com/video-four-seasons/
 
I have a Jayco that has an insulation package to make it a 4 season TT and its just okay.  The roof, slide and floor have the foil wrap and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference in the heat.  What I found helped us with cooling on hot days (100+) is adding a box fan to move the air.  The AC doesn't move enough air to cool the coach and adding the fan has helped.  So as far as the insulation goes, you have to really look in to what they use and what the claims are and make a choice. 

 
keymastr said:
Take a look at Outdoors RV. They have 2 inch foam sidewalls all around including slideout walls floors and ceiling plus thermopane windows and heated tanks. http://outdoorsrvmfg.com/video-four-seasons/
Click to expand...

Thermopane window are meaningless unless the aluminum framing is thermally broken by a non conductive barrier.  Single glass is R-1  Double Glass is R-2.  Aluminum window and door frames are just as conductive as a beer can in a tub of ice.  Argon gas fill helps a little.  The aluminum defeats  all efforts to brag about the other stuff.
 
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