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Author Topic: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?  (Read 762 times)

novasbc

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Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« on: June 21, 2017, 03:53:02 PM »
I posted a topic in the introduction form, where I indicated I was certain my truck would pull the toy hauler I've been debating.  I had weighed my truck, but realized I had made several errors.  First being, I hadn't weighed the truck since some modifications were done (bumpers, winch, etc), and I didn't have a specific weight for the rear axle.

Today, I went to the CAT scale, and got my weights:
Steer Axle:5,580 lb
Drive Axle:3,420 lb
Gross Weight:9,000 lb

My truck's specifications:
GVWR:11,500 lb
Front GAWR:6000 lb
Rear GAWR:7,000 lb
GCWR:23,500 lb
Maximum loaded trailer weight:15,700 (fifth wheel)

I was looking at the Palomino Puma 359-THKS, and before I got it weighed, after I started researching the king pin weight, I was realizing that I was danged close to the maximum.

So, I started looking at a similar model, with less king pin wait, the Puma 351-THSS.  It has a (factory) hitch weight of 1,845 lb, a GVWR of 13,560 lb (including cargo capacity of 4,000 lb).  I'm assuming that once I load it, the king pin weight is going to go up.

I plugged these numbers into the Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator.  It has a field for GVW - should I be putting the weight of the truck including all passengers, and stuff in the bed?  Or is it wanting the base weight of the truck?  I entered a value which I believe represents the weight of the truck with all the passengers, a potential Reese fifth wheel hitch, and some stuff in the bed of the truck (you can see the values I entered into the the form if you click the link).

This comes out to say that the maximum weight of a trailer I can safely pull is 6300 lb with a safety margin.  This doesn't even count a potential generator, water in the various tanks, etc.  Of course, at present, without any heavy "toys", I'm not going to be adding a full 4,000 lb of cargo, but even if I use the "dry" weight,

This is drastically different than calculations I did previously in Excel, trying to figure out what was safe.  It pretty much says there is zero chance of my pulling a fifth wheel toy hauler behind my rig (2015 Diesel F350, SRW 4x4), and am seriously limited on any fifth wheel options period.

I find it somewhat surprising, as I know people having less of a rig than my own, towing heavier trailers than the one I'm speccing out.  I will grant that originally, when I bought the F350, along with my excel calculations, and what I saw from friends, it seemed like I was going to be able to haul most reasonable fifth wheel trailers.

So, do my findings pass the smell test?  Looks like with my existing truck I'd be looking at a bumper pull to be able to realistically pull just about anything.

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2017, 04:54:41 PM »
Doing some more searching, with terms specifically around these topics, and have found a few that mirror my conclusions.  Pretty much need to look at a travel trailer, fifth wheel options are limited.

Mark

grashley

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2017, 07:50:16 PM »
First, welcome to the Forum!

You must have a gorgeous truck!  My F350 only weighs 8,000# with Lariat trim!  All those extras cost payload.

Simply stated, your max payload is the truck GVWR - actual wt, or 11,500# - 9,000#  = 2500#

This weight is the max load carried by the truck.  The total weight of all passengers, pets, cargo (not in the truck when it was weighed!), FW hitch and pin wt can not exceed 2500#.

The pin wt of a FW should be at least 15%, and usually averages 20% of the ACTUAL WEIGHT of the FW, i.e. loaded weight.  Your best estimate is to use the FW  GVWR for this.  If the pin weighs a bit less, call it added safety margin.

I fear this allows very little room for a FW.  Also, my guess is the truck has been lifted in that 1,000# mod package.  That makes getting a FW to tow level an added challenge!

My suggestion - a FW places 20% of its' weight on the Tow Vehicle (TV).   A bumper pull Travel Trailer (TT) only adds about 10% - 12% of its' weight to the TV.  If you have 500# passengers and 200# FW hitch, you are limited to 1800# pin wt or a  9,000# GVWR  FW. (9,000# FW x 20% = 1800# pin wt).  If you have 500# passengers and 100# WD hitch, you have 1900# left for hitch wt, or a 19,000# TT with 10% hitch wt.

You can pull a very nice TT with the truck.  Drop hitches make level towing much easier.   You may want to look that direction.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2017, 08:37:50 PM »
First, welcome to the Forum!

You must have a gorgeous truck!  My F350 only weighs 8,000# with Lariat trim!  All those extras cost payload.

Thanks, I enjoy the truck very much.  So far, this particular topic is the only thing I am (somewhat) unhappy about.  I custom ordered the truck with all the options I thought I'd ever need (dual alternators, front bench seat to fit three up front, heated & cooled front seats, heated rears, upgraded suspension package to handle the Ranch Hand bumpers, etc).  I regret getting the bed sprayed with Line-X, it faded quickly, and when things get spilled in it, it gets dyed/colored, and it's not what I thought for a truck used as a truck.

Primary purpose was to use around the property, and eventually a fifth wheel.  At this point, it seems silly I got the fifth wheel prep, but I guess at least I can pull a gooseneck trailer around the property still, when needed.  The long bed has been very useful to me. 

Simply stated, your max payload is the truck GVWR - actual wt, or 11,500# - 9,000#  = 2500#

This weight is the max load carried by the truck.  The total weight of all passengers, pets, cargo (not in the truck when it was weighed!), FW hitch and pin wt can not exceed 2500#.

The pin wt of a FW should be at least 15%, and usually averages 20% of the ACTUAL WEIGHT of the FW, i.e. loaded weight.  Your best estimate is to use the FW  GVWR for this.  If the pin weighs a bit less, call it added safety margin.

I fear this allows very little room for a FW.  Also, my guess is the truck has been lifted in that 1,000# mod package.  That makes getting a FW to tow level an added challenge!

My suggestion - a FW places 20% of its' weight on the Tow Vehicle (TV).   A bumper pull Travel Trailer (TT) only adds about 10% - 12% of its' weight to the TV.  If you have 500# passengers and 200# FW hitch, you are limited to 1800# pin wt or a  9,000# GVWR  FW. (9,000# FW x 20% = 1800# pin wt).  If you have 500# passengers and 100# WD hitch, you have 1900# left for hitch wt, or a 19,000# TT with 10% hitch wt.

You can pull a very nice TT with the truck.  Drop hitches make level towing much easier.   You may want to look that direction.

At this point, I am only looking at travel trailers.  I initially was looking at fifth wheels because I heard they were so much easier to pull than a TT, but clearly, that is irrelevant in the scenario if it puts me over weight.

I find I don't like the floor plans of the TT toy haulers quite as much as the ones we decided on for the fifth wheel, so likely we are going with one having bunks, and a separate room for the kids, like this one.

Mark

OutdoorFT

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2017, 01:06:52 AM »
Wow. What is with all these low payloads lately?

2500# for a similar truck as mine..except gas (perhaps the reason). My payload is 3602 with cclb, fx4, lariat trim. good news though...youll be able to get a nice sized TT
Future Fulltimer

2011 F350 Lariat CCLB SRW
No RV yet!!

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 09:12:17 AM »
Mark used up a big chunk of the potential payload with all that extra gear. Clearly those extras added 1000 lb or so to the typical F350 weight, even a Lariat. The truck GVWR stays the same but the curb weight (UVW) keeps growing as features are added. There is no free lunch.  He probably should have had an F450 to handle his total needs - the GVWR would have been substantially larger.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 11:41:07 AM »
Mark used up a big chunk of the potential payload with all that extra gear. Clearly those extras added 1000 lb or so to the typical F350 weight, even a Lariat. The truck GVWR stays the same but the curb weight (UVW) keeps growing as features are added. There is no free lunch.  He probably should have had an F450 to handle his total needs - the GVWR would have been substantially larger.

Yes, this is the conclusion that I came to.  The items I added to the truck were necessary for what we planned to use the vehicle for, and indeed, I should have waited to be able to afford the higher price tag of the F450, given all the needs I anticipated.  The problem indeed was my going with Excel calculations, which didn't take into account the other factors that I see in retrospect.

The F450 appears to jump from 11,500 lbs to 14,000 lbs GVWR.  However, even plugging those numbers into the calculator, shows the F450 lacking the capability either - I end up with Maximum Trailer Weight with Margin = 11,176 lb, higher than the GVWR of the trailer @ 13,000+ lb.

Even if I subtract the weight of my accessories, I still don't show to come close to being able to pull the toy hauler.  You have to still be picky with what fifth wheel you pick.

If I had gone with the dually, I would have increased my options dramatically, but at the time, I received advice that the dually wasn't necessary, from multiple people, who haul 15,000+ lb fifth wheel RVs on their 1 ton pickups (Chevy 3500, and F350 SRW owners).  Had I remotely thought it would come down to it being the difference between hauling a fifth wheel and not, I'd have taken the disadvantages of the dually in the city.

Gods Country

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2017, 01:35:59 PM »
As you have found out the people you talk to often over load their vehicles. 

You can't change the GCWR and GVWR.

With a 9,000# truck you really cut into your payload.

I'm not happy for you, but I am happy you understand the issue.  A lot of people don't get the answer they want to hear and do what they want anyway, or get mad at the messenger. 

As you are aware you either need to upgrade your TV or consider a travel trailer.

grashley

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2017, 05:28:25 PM »
KEEP LOOKING!   There may be your perfect TH out there somewhere!  PPL is a great site with lots of consignment units, and all have the floor plan on the listing page.  RVTrader is another site with lots of listings.  Gently used may well be a better fit for you for many reasons.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Rene T

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2017, 05:35:50 PM »
I regret getting the bed sprayed with Line-X, it faded quickly, and when things get spilled in it, it gets dyed/colored, and it's not what I thought for a truck used as a truck.

Wow, you're the first person I've heard of who doesn't like the Line-X. There's a post right now going on and everybody swears by the Line-X
Rene & Lucille & co-pilot Buddy
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2011 Chevy Duramax 2500 HD 4X4
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steveblonde

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2017, 07:57:56 PM »
 Linex is gauranteed for life so its not real linex is my bet
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5200lbs cargo/weight capacity named Kong


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh?

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2017, 08:06:45 PM »
I have the lifetime guarantee paperwork, and had it sprayed by the listed Line-X shop in Round Rock, TX.

The guarantees cover what exactly, though, I don't know.  I find that most people who have line x around here also have been covers, which eliminates fading.

I'll go take a picture tomorrow of the current look of the bedliner to illustrate.

kdbgoat

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 05:54:27 AM »
One of my nephews was a salesman for Line-X a while back. He was interested in opening a shop to do spray in bedliners on his own instead of working for someone else. Line-X dealers, at least at that time had a defined territory. After a lot of research, he decided not to open his own shop because he said "the other stuff is okay, but it's not as good as Line-X". He said if he couldn't sell the best, he wouldn't sell any.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 05:29:45 PM »
I thought I would follow up on this thread.  I ended up crunching numbers after numbers, after numbers.  I ended up getting the Palomino Puma 351-THSS, which had a listed GVRW of 13,560 lbs, and pin weight of 1,845 lbs.  I calculated that this should be within my weight ratings on the truck.  I called around to multiple dealers to see if there was any way that I could get more detail on what the weight would be with one of these loaded, but nobody was interested in going into that detail, or putting one on a scale - not surprising.  I had multiple salesman get very irritated that I was trying to get this detail when "your truck can pull anything we have", you are wrong to be so worried.

Ultimately, I found the exact unit I was looking for in Buda, at Camper Clinic II.  In the end, they went out of their way to get me as much information as I could get from Palomino, although still no weights.  It was clear they also disagreed with my worry about my weights, but at least didn't make me feel stupid.

The unit I wanted had the generator already populated, as well as the two A/C units.  I went ahead and pulled the trigger when I got a price I felt was reasonable.  I've now spent the $11 each time to get it weighed in multiple configurations.  In all cases, I am within the GVWR of my truck, being pretty close.  When I load the rear of it with all of our stuff, it counteracts whatever we have up in front, so we don't have to unpack anything to put to the back of the trailer (which was one of my big worries).  You can see fully loaded on the last weigh-out, I'm about 200 lbs from my GVWR - which I'd say is pretty spot on while not going over.  This includes even the heavy replacement master bedroom mattress my wife ordered.

DateTotal Truck WeightSteer AxleDrive AxleTrailer AxleGross WeightNotes
June 219,000 lb5,580 lb3,420 lb0 lb9,000 lbNo trailer, myself, cooler in the back, no hitch yet, kids car seats in
June 2811,500 lb5,760 lb5,740 lb8,320 lb19,820 lbJust picked up the trailer.  Weight with the truck, cooler in the back, wife, and car seats (no kids)
July 1711,000 lb5,620 lb5,380lb9,100 lb20,100 lbMostly loaded camper, myself and car seats in truck (otw to campground near work)
July 2811,320 lb5,740 lb5,580 lb9,180 lb20,500 lbFully loaded camper, wife, kids (no toys, but have stuff in the back under the two queen beds)

Overall, we are very happy with our purchase.  All of us are enjoying it very much.  I am disappointed that we didn't figure out that the front vents on it were blocked, a/c only comes out of the vents in the bathroom and garage.  I got an appointment next week to get it fixed before we hit the beach in two weeks, at least.

Mark

grashley

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2017, 07:13:11 PM »
GREAT NEWS!! 

As you said, you are close on your weights, but under or at limits in all cases - never over!!

Your careful research has truly been rewarded!  There IS a way to do it SAFELY, and you found it!

Keep lots of weight in the back, and you will be fine.  Besides, the truck will not fall apart if you are 200# over.

Thanks for the update.

ENJOY CAMPING!!!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 09:38:51 AM »
Verify your truck rear axle GAWR - there is a fair chance you are max or maybe even overloaded a bit there, but it looks like you are in decent shape weight-wise. Well done!
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

RVRAC

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2017, 12:05:15 PM »
I think you need a different truck or a different FW.  Not enough payload.
2017 Leprechaun 311 FS
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novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2017, 07:20:23 PM »
Verify your truck rear axle GAWR - there is a fair chance you are max or maybe even overloaded a bit there, but it looks like you are in decent shape weight-wise. Well done!

Thanks, I did that before the purchase :).

Door sticker has the rear GAWR at 7,000 lb due to how I ordered the pickup.

xrated

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2017, 07:11:47 AM »
I think you need a different truck or a different FW.  Not enough payload.

His payload is 2160 lbs and he has 2500 lbs available....why would you say that ^^^^^^?
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

xrated

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 07:21:47 AM »
novasbc......Nice job on doing your homework BEFORE the trailer purchase, so many don't.  And then when you point it out to them that they are xxx lbs overloaded, they want to argue with you....."the salesman said I was fine"...."my neighbor tows a heavier trailer that that one and he does just fine".  There are a million excuses out there to try and justify being overloaded, but none of them really hold water.  The bottom line is that YOU went about it the correct, safe, and legal way.....pat yourself on the back for a job well done!      :))
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 08:44:20 AM »
His payload is 2160 lbs and he has 2500 lbs available....why would you say that ^^^^^^?

The biggest thing would be that I could weigh the front of my travel trailer down further.  When I used the calculators, if I max out my payload, I'm about 17% for the pin weight, and it seems that people recommend 20-25%.

However, on this toy hauler, I'm not sure you really could load it down that much, since it is set up to put the weight in the back.

Mark

xrated

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2017, 11:42:20 AM »
I've been fighting that same issue with my Toy Hauler.  Loading my "stuff" in the back, takes away tongue weight and I kept adding weight in the front to the point that I was about to overload the GVWR of my 3/4 Ton truck.  I ended up trading in the F250 for a F350 Crew Cab Dually.  I obviously have a lot more stability and also have breathing room to add some weight to the tongue if needed....although the last two times I've taken the truck/trailer out when going to the track, it's been rock solid back there.

A couple of things that I did to add weight to the front:
1.  Removed a single 12V battery and replaced it with two 6V golf cart deep cycle batteries.
2.  Added a 35 lb barbell plate under my forward baggage slide (don't laugh....it helped)
3.  Added two 60 lb. Sand tubes.
4.  Travel with my 106 gallon fresh water tank lippin' full (it's just slightly forward of the front axle)

Presently, when loaded and ready to go, I scale at 12,400 lbs. and the tongue weight is right at 1360.  This equates to right at 11% tongue weight, which is acceptable on a tow behind trailer.  I wouldn't mind having another 120-130 lbs on the tongue to get it around 12%, and if I can figure out a way to easily do that, I might.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:55:19 AM by xrated »
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

novasbc

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2017, 11:45:15 AM »
So far, mine has pulled great - no complaints.

I suppose, in retrospect, if I wanted to add weight to the front, I could just add to the fresh water tank.

I should fill it to full, and see what that does to my weights - I'm guessing they put the tank closer to the axles than to the front.  I know the black and grey tanks on mine are just over/behind the rear axle.

Mark

gravesdiesel

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Re: Fifth Wheel Toy Hauler too much for (my) F350?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2017, 01:36:20 PM »
Interesting thread!  I am also considering a fifth wheel toy hauler in the future.  I am looking at a 35 footer also, the Grand Design Momentum 350M.  My truck is a 3500 4x4 4 door Dodge DRW with flatbed and 6 speed.  I should be fine with this setup, due to the DRW.  You can easily swap out your rear axle for a DRW.  I did this on my 1996 truck when I had the flatbed built for it back in 1998.  Glad you enjoy your toy hauler.  The "toy" space is going to be so useful for me when i get mine eventually.
2016 KZ Spree 262 RKS
2003 Dodge 3500 4 door flatbed 4x4 diesel, 6 speed
1996 Dodge 3500 extra cab flatbed 4x4 diesel 5 speed
2006 Arctic Cat TRV diesel 4x4 ATV
(2) 1981 Yamaha G1 2 cycle golf carts
Many other diesels on the farm!

 

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