Weight Police!! Help me understand

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bill dean

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Aug 1, 2017
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My tow vehicle is a 2013 Dodge Ram 2500 V8 6' 4" Short Box.

Tow Vehicle Specs:
GVWR 8800 From the trucks door
PAYLOAD 1891 ??

5th Wheel Spec:
GVWR 8900 This is this the empty weight?

Passengers, hitch, equipment -700 lbs = 8100
PIN WEIGHT 1780 ??

So my tow vehicle should tow this 5th wheel and be within spec? This seems to be really confusing. What would be the max 5th wheel GVWR I could tow safely? Is there a formula for figuring out what you can pull thats easy to understand?

The GVWR is from the sticker on the door of my truck. The sticker didn't give me the payload but it did give me the GAWR for the front of 5200 lbs and the GAWR for the rear of 6200lbs.  The payload I took off a generic table. The pin weight I figured 20% of the trailer GVWR. The trailer GVWR was taken from the yellow sticker on the trailer.
 
With a 2500 short bed gas motored truck, I would not consider anything more than 10,000 GVWR.  That is going to drop 2000 pounds of pin weight directly over the rear axle.  Add passangers, hitch and "stuff" you will be at or a bit over your trucks GVWR.
 
What year is your truck. There should be a "tire and loading" sticker (the Infamous yellow sticker) on the B pillar also. It states the maximum weight of cargo and occupants. That weight is your payload. The weight of everything that gets added to the truck gets subtracted from that number. That means all people, running boards, bedliner, floor mats, wife's purse, etc. If it wasn't factory, it must be subtracted.
 
kdbgoat said:
What year is your truck. There should be a "tire and loading" sticker (the Infamous yellow sticker) on the B pillar also. It states the maximum weight of cargo and occupants. That weight is your payload. The weight of everything that gets added to the truck gets subtracted from that number. That means all people, running boards, bedliner, floor mats, wife's purse, etc. If it wasn't factory, it must be subtracted.

The sticker on the the truck says 1891lbs!! So the pin weight gets subtracted from this. A FW that has a GVWR of 8900lbs has a pin weight of 1780.... that only leaves me 100 lbs for people, gear and my wife purse. Dang she is going to have to stay home!
 
With that low payload weight, you better start looking at travel trailers. Or you will be looking for a different wife.

Seriously, you can't tow much of a 5W with an 1891 lb payload. Probably a max trailer GVWR of 7000 lbs (pin weight about 1400). A travel trailer tongue weighs in about 10%, so much easier on the payload scale.
 
I'd look into an airbag system. Mine is from Air Lift and is rated at 2000lbs. I wouldn't hesitate to add it and go to pulling. That truck is stout enough to handle the weight. However, you really need to get the whole setup onto a scale for accurate numbers.
 
ducnut said:
I'd look into an airbag system. Mine is from Air Lift and is rated at 2000lbs. I wouldn't hesitate to add it and go to pulling. That truck is stout enough to handle the weight. However, you really need to get the whole setup onto a scale for accurate numbers.

Seriously?  Air bags do absolutely NOTHING for increasing your payload capacity!  The payload is what the sticker says it is.  Air bags can and should be used ONLY for levelling the rear of the truck, but if you are overloaded......you're overloaded!

Bill Dean.........it's worse than you think.  If your pin weight is 1780  (and it may actually be a bit more than that), then you add in the weight of your 5ver hitch (175 lbs or so) you are now up to 1955 lbs.  So just the pin weight and the hitch put you over........no wife, no cargo, no nothing else.  Sorry!
 
The last two posted while I typed.

OK, now we have the numbers we need.

Truck CCC or Payload from yellow placard is 1891 #

FW GVWR from yellow placard is 8900 #.  This is the MOST the fully loaded FW can weigh.

You have 700 # passengers and hitch and misc.

A FW with 8900# GVWR will have about 1780# pin wt.  Add 700# cargo = 2480# total payload, or almost 600# overweight.

Working the numbers backwards, we start with 1900# payload (let's simplify the math).  Deduct 700# cargo = 1200# for max pin wt.  A FW weighing 6,000# will have a 1200# (20%) pin wt. 
MAX FW WEIGHT IS 6,000 GVWR.

Sorry.  Do people tow loads this size and larger?  Yes, every day.  Is it safe?  No.  You are smarter and better informed than they are.

As Gary said, take a long look at bumper pull TT.  A FW places 20% of its' weight in the truck.  A TT only places 10% of its' weight on the bumper and requires a lighter hitch.

Using your numbers, 1900# payload - 500# people and cargo (no 200# FW hitch) - 80# WD hitch = 1320# for max hitch wt.  Assuming 10% hitch wt yields a 13,200# max TT  GVWR.  Assuming 12.5% hitch wt yields a 10,560 # max TT GVWR.

You CAN SAFELY TOW a nice TT with your truck.

I hope I made the math understandable.  If not, please ask.
 
xrated said:
Seriously?  Air bags do absolutely NOTHING for increasing your payload capacity!  The payload is what the sticker says it is.  Air bags can and should be used ONLY for levelling the rear of the truck, but if you are overloaded......you're overloaded!

The payload rating of that truck is based on the springs. The axle, chassis, and brakes under that truck are used on heavier-rated trucks.

If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

If you're using airbags to level it, aren't they actually carrying weight, because the suspension isn't able to support it, itself? Wouldn't that be adding to your payload capacity, then?

I guess, every sagging vehicle I see on the road, including most 5th wheelers, are overloaded. Heaven forbid should we add airbags to increase the payload capability with our suspension combination and level out our vehicle.

You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)
 
ducnut said:
The payload rating of that truck is based on the springs. The axle, chassis, and brakes under that truck are used on heavier-rated trucks.

If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

If you're using airbags to level it, aren't they actually carrying weight, because the suspension isn't able to support it, itself? Wouldn't that be adding to your payload capacity, then?

I guess, every sagging vehicle I see on the road, including most 5th wheelers, are overloaded. Heaven forbid should we add airbags to increase the payload capability with our suspension combination and level out our vehicle.

You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)

In very simple terms......The payload capacity is what the manufacturer of the truck says it is.  It's not negotiable.....Period!  Not by air bags, not by helper springs, not by anything except a company that has the federal authority to modify a vehicle and change the payload status.....such as aftermarket conversion companies.  The payload sticker is the gospel.  You can choose to believe that or not.....but it still doesn't change the facts at hand.

I added air bags to a 2011 F250 Diesel that I had to help level out the truck because of more sag than I wanted it to have while towing.  I also ran the truck/trailer combo across a CAT scale to get the numbers of my truck/trailer.  I was close, very close to being over the GVWR of the truck (I was at 9760 lb and the truck GVWR was at 10K)  with the amount of tongue weight that the Toy Hauler was putting on the truck, but was NOT overloaded on any of the categories.....GVWR, GCWR, RAWR, FAWR, or payload.  So yes, air bags do provide a service, especially for some of the later model F250 with notoriously soft springs on the first leaf, but that still didn't change the payload capacity of the truck.

Sorry if you don't understand the ratings and what they mean and how they are applied, but facts are facts and you can't change them to suit your own purpose!
 
ducnut wrote:
  You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.   

Can you translate that statement for me....because I don't have a clue what you are talking about?
 
ducnut said:
You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)

Not on this forum!  In fact we have had that very conversation and delivered much information & warnings to the Ecoboost owners you talk about.

My 3/4 ton Suburban tows MUCH better with the airbag system I recently installed.  It has nothing to do with pulling capacity, as I know my loaded trailer weighs well under my 10k# towing limit.  There was previously not much visible sagging either, but the suspension would bottom out and ride rough over road bumps when towing heavy.  On my last trip (first one with the airbags) it glided right along.  Much smoother towing experience.
 
Honestly I would ditch that truck tomorrow.  You could purchase a 1/2 ton with nearly as much payload and at least enjoy a better ride and gas mileage.

 
Gods Country said:
Honestly I would ditch that truck tomorrow.  You could purchase a 1/2 ton with nearly as much payload and at least enjoy a better ride and gas mileage.

I believe your right. Thanks everyone for your input. I am now going to look at some other trucks and or a trailer. I am some what disappointed that I bought that truck as I thought a 2500 dodge would pull about anything safely. I am the original owner and have had it a while but I new nothing about payload and I thought I would never pull anything but my 4 wheeler with it. Your right the gas mileage is bad.........
 
Don't beat yourself up too bad bill, many of us have been there, myself included. On the bright side you can still pull a very nice TT with that truck and if you go with a real expensive hitch it will reduce the tongue weight even further.
 
bill dean said:
I believe your right. Thanks everyone for your input. I am now going to look at some other trucks and or a trailer. I am some what disappointed that I bought that truck as I thought a 2500 dodge would pull about anything safely. I am the original owner and have had it a while but I new nothing about payload and I thought I would never pull anything but my 4 wheeler with it. Your right the gas mileage is bad.........

It's all in the options.  When you load them up the payload suffers.
 
If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

Not so. The standard suspension will compress as load is added, maybe a lot. Adding air bags (or physical helper springs) increases the suspension capacity and can help bring it back level. That's valuable for towing because the trailer should have a level attitude for best handling. A sagging suspension is loaded, but not necessarily OVERloaded.

The rest of the pulling/hauling/carrying equation doesn't change when air or another suspension helper is added, e.g. tires, brakes, drive train limits, etc.  Maybe those are adequate or maybe not - each would have to be evaluated on its own. The key point is that the rear suspension is not the only factor in determining cargo and tow capacity.
 
One of my trucks is a '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins 3.73 NV5600 quad cab with a 13350 lb tow rating.
This truck was made before the useless yellow tire placard payload sticker became mandatory industry wide in '06 era.
It has a 6000 lb RAWR with a 2840 lb unladin rear axle weight....leaves the truck with around 3160 lb payload in the bed. I keep a scaled front and rear axle load ticket in all of my trucks. That way I know how much payload is available.

With my 11200 lb 5th wheel trailer and 2200-2280 lb pin weight leaves the trucks rear axle in 5100-5200 lb range. The front axle stays w/i 30 lbs or so with the trailer or empty.
Of course the Cummins has no problems easily pulling its max tow rating.

For some reason only known to Dodge , they didn't add a upper overload spring pack on the 3rd gen 2500 trucks. Add 1500 lbs of Redimix in the bed and it sags ....so instead of air bags I went with SuperSprings to help the rear spring pack carry the load LEVEL and still within its rating.
Many 4wd trucks sit level and start to sag when weight is added and doesn't mean the truck is overloaded.

If you like the truck and want to keep it then simply pay attention the trucks axle /tire load ratings.
 
Regardless of if the truck can do it. The horrible "if" is if there is a rear end collision or intersection accident with big injury. The civil and statutory issues for running in excess of the limits can be real heavy.  If the question comes up as to why couldn't this 5er stop will segway right into how much does all this weigh? The engineers that make the trucks go to great pains to figure out how much they can safely pull, load, and stop with.

You really don't want to expose yourself to this type of problem. If the truck is on its limit or may be over the limit, you need a smaller RV or a bigger truck. Don't risk it.

But, opinions are like other things, everybody has one.  :D
 

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