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Author Topic: Weight Police!! Help me understand  (Read 1091 times)

bill dean

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Weight Police!! Help me understand
« on: August 07, 2017, 05:00:17 PM »
My tow vehicle is a 2013 Dodge Ram 2500 V8 6' 4" Short Box.

Tow Vehicle Specs:
GVWR 8800 From the trucks door
PAYLOAD 1891 ??

5th Wheel Spec:
GVWR 8900 This is this the empty weight?

Passengers, hitch, equipment -700 lbs = 8100
PIN WEIGHT 1780 ??

So my tow vehicle should tow this 5th wheel and be within spec? This seems to be really confusing. What would be the max 5th wheel GVWR I could tow safely? Is there a formula for figuring out what you can pull thats easy to understand?

The GVWR is from the sticker on the door of my truck. The sticker didn't give me the payload but it did give me the GAWR for the front of 5200 lbs and the GAWR for the rear of 6200lbs.  The payload I took off a generic table. The pin weight I figured 20% of the trailer GVWR. The trailer GVWR was taken from the yellow sticker on the trailer.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:36:46 PM by bill dean »

donn

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2017, 05:15:03 PM »
With a 2500 short bed gas motored truck, I would not consider anything more than 10,000 GVWR.  That is going to drop 2000 pounds of pin weight directly over the rear axle.  Add passangers, hitch and "stuff" you will be at or a bit over your trucks GVWR.

kdbgoat

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 05:22:07 PM »
What year is your truck. There should be a "tire and loading" sticker (the Infamous yellow sticker) on the B pillar also. It states the maximum weight of cargo and occupants. That weight is your payload. The weight of everything that gets added to the truck gets subtracted from that number. That means all people, running boards, bedliner, floor mats, wife's purse, etc. If it wasn't factory, it must be subtracted.
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bill dean

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 05:26:54 PM »
2013 dodge ram 2500 Laramie v8 hemi

bill dean

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 05:40:16 PM »
What year is your truck. There should be a "tire and loading" sticker (the Infamous yellow sticker) on the B pillar also. It states the maximum weight of cargo and occupants. That weight is your payload. The weight of everything that gets added to the truck gets subtracted from that number. That means all people, running boards, bedliner, floor mats, wife's purse, etc. If it wasn't factory, it must be subtracted.

The sticker on the the truck says 1891lbs!! So the pin weight gets subtracted from this. A FW that has a GVWR of 8900lbs has a pin weight of 1780.... that only leaves me 100 lbs for people, gear and my wife purse. Dang she is going to have to stay home!

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2017, 06:10:56 PM »
With that low payload weight, you better start looking at travel trailers. Or you will be looking for a different wife.

Seriously, you can't tow much of a 5W with an 1891 lb payload. Probably a max trailer GVWR of 7000 lbs (pin weight about 1400). A travel trailer tongue weighs in about 10%, so much easier on the payload scale.
Gary
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ducnut

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2017, 07:16:23 PM »
I'd look into an airbag system. Mine is from Air Lift and is rated at 2000lbs. I wouldn't hesitate to add it and go to pulling. That truck is stout enough to handle the weight. However, you really need to get the whole setup onto a scale for accurate numbers.

xrated

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2017, 07:30:54 PM »
I'd look into an airbag system. Mine is from Air Lift and is rated at 2000lbs. I wouldn't hesitate to add it and go to pulling. That truck is stout enough to handle the weight. However, you really need to get the whole setup onto a scale for accurate numbers.

Seriously?  Air bags do absolutely NOTHING for increasing your payload capacity!  The payload is what the sticker says it is.  Air bags can and should be used ONLY for levelling the rear of the truck, but if you are overloaded......you're overloaded!

Bill Dean.........it's worse than you think.  If your pin weight is 1780  (and it may actually be a bit more than that), then you add in the weight of your 5ver hitch (175 lbs or so) you are now up to 1955 lbs.  So just the pin weight and the hitch put you over........no wife, no cargo, no nothing else.  Sorry!
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grashley

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2017, 07:37:19 PM »
The last two posted while I typed.

OK, now we have the numbers we need.

Truck CCC or Payload from yellow placard is 1891 #

FW GVWR from yellow placard is 8900 #.  This is the MOST the fully loaded FW can weigh.

You have 700 # passengers and hitch and misc.

 A FW with 8900# GVWR will have about 1780# pin wt.  Add 700# cargo = 2480# total payload, or almost 600# overweight.

Working the numbers backwards, we start with 1900# payload (let's simplify the math).  Deduct 700# cargo = 1200# for max pin wt.  A FW weighing 6,000# will have a 1200# (20%) pin wt. 
MAX FW WEIGHT IS 6,000 GVWR.

Sorry.  Do people tow loads this size and larger?  Yes, every day.  Is it safe?  No.  You are smarter and better informed than they are.

As Gary said, take a long look at bumper pull TT.  A FW places 20% of its' weight in the truck.  A TT only places 10% of its' weight on the bumper and requires a lighter hitch.

Using your numbers, 1900# payload - 500# people and cargo (no 200# FW hitch) - 80# WD hitch = 1320# for max hitch wt.  Assuming 10% hitch wt yields a 13,200# max TT  GVWR.  Assuming 12.5% hitch wt yields a 10,560 # max TT GVWR.

You CAN SAFELY TOW a nice TT with your truck.

I hope I made the math understandable.  If not, please ask.
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ducnut

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2017, 08:05:10 PM »
Seriously?  Air bags do absolutely NOTHING for increasing your payload capacity!  The payload is what the sticker says it is.  Air bags can and should be used ONLY for levelling the rear of the truck, but if you are overloaded......you're overloaded!

The payload rating of that truck is based on the springs. The axle, chassis, and brakes under that truck are used on heavier-rated trucks.

If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

If you're using airbags to level it, aren't they actually carrying weight, because the suspension isn't able to support it, itself? Wouldn't that be adding to your payload capacity, then?

I guess, every sagging vehicle I see on the road, including most 5th wheelers, are overloaded. Heaven forbid should we add airbags to increase the payload capability with our suspension combination and level out our vehicle.

You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)

xrated

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2017, 08:25:20 PM »
The payload rating of that truck is based on the springs. The axle, chassis, and brakes under that truck are used on heavier-rated trucks.

If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

If you're using airbags to level it, aren't they actually carrying weight, because the suspension isn't able to support it, itself? Wouldn't that be adding to your payload capacity, then?

I guess, every sagging vehicle I see on the road, including most 5th wheelers, are overloaded. Heaven forbid should we add airbags to increase the payload capability with our suspension combination and level out our vehicle.

You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)

In very simple terms......The payload capacity is what the manufacturer of the truck says it is.  It's not negotiable.....Period!  Not by air bags, not by helper springs, not by anything except a company that has the federal authority to modify a vehicle and change the payload status.....such as aftermarket conversion companies.  The payload sticker is the gospel.  You can choose to believe that or not.....but it still doesn't change the facts at hand.

I added air bags to a 2011 F250 Diesel that I had to help level out the truck because of more sag than I wanted it to have while towing.  I also ran the truck/trailer combo across a CAT scale to get the numbers of my truck/trailer.  I was close, very close to being over the GVWR of the truck (I was at 9760 lb and the truck GVWR was at 10K)  with the amount of tongue weight that the Toy Hauler was putting on the truck, but was NOT overloaded on any of the categories.....GVWR, GCWR, RAWR, FAWR, or payload.  So yes, air bags do provide a service, especially for some of the later model F250 with notoriously soft springs on the first leaf, but that still didn't change the payload capacity of the truck.

Sorry if you don't understand the ratings and what they mean and how they are applied, but facts are facts and you can't change them to suit your own purpose!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 08:30:30 PM by xrated »
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xrated

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2017, 08:32:19 PM »
ducnut wrote:
Quote
  You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.   

Can you translate that statement for me....because I don't have a clue what you are talking about?
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scottydl

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2017, 09:00:42 PM »
You go ahead and keep beating the "manufacturer's rating sticker" drum all you want, because that's what gets prospective RVers to thinking they can hookup 37' travel trailers to their F-150 Ecoboost, while telling everyone around the doorjamb sticker says it's safe to do so.  ::)

Not on this forum!  In fact we have had that very conversation and delivered much information & warnings to the Ecoboost owners you talk about.

My 3/4 ton Suburban tows MUCH better with the airbag system I recently installed.  It has nothing to do with pulling capacity, as I know my loaded trailer weighs well under my 10k# towing limit.  There was previously not much visible sagging either, but the suspension would bottom out and ride rough over road bumps when towing heavy.  On my last trip (first one with the airbags) it glided right along.  Much smoother towing experience.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 10:15:26 AM by scottydl »
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Gods Country

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2017, 09:25:27 PM »
Honestly I would ditch that truck tomorrow.  You could purchase a 1/2 ton with nearly as much payload and at least enjoy a better ride and gas mileage.


bill dean

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2017, 09:45:53 PM »
Honestly I would ditch that truck tomorrow.  You could purchase a 1/2 ton with nearly as much payload and at least enjoy a better ride and gas mileage.

I believe your right. Thanks everyone for your input. I am now going to look at some other trucks and or a trailer. I am some what disappointed that I bought that truck as I thought a 2500 dodge would pull about anything safely. I am the original owner and have had it a while but I new nothing about payload and I thought I would never pull anything but my 4 wheeler with it. Your right the gas mileage is bad.........

keymastr

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2017, 12:36:06 AM »
Don't beat yourself up too bad bill, many of us have been there, myself included. On the bright side you can still pull a very nice TT with that truck and if you go with a real expensive hitch it will reduce the tongue weight even further.

Gods Country

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 06:31:51 AM »
I believe your right. Thanks everyone for your input. I am now going to look at some other trucks and or a trailer. I am some what disappointed that I bought that truck as I thought a 2500 dodge would pull about anything safely. I am the original owner and have had it a while but I new nothing about payload and I thought I would never pull anything but my 4 wheeler with it. Your right the gas mileage is bad.........

It's all in the options.  When you load them up the payload suffers.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2017, 07:30:24 AM »
Quote
If one is using airbags to level the vehicle, then, clearly you're beyond the vehicle's capabilities, since it's sagging. I mean a sagging vehicle has to be overloaded, right?

Not so. The standard suspension will compress as load is added, maybe a lot. Adding air bags (or physical helper springs) increases the suspension capacity and can help bring it back level. That's valuable for towing because the trailer should have a level attitude for best handling. A sagging suspension is loaded, but not necessarily OVERloaded.

The rest of the pulling/hauling/carrying equation doesn't change when air or another suspension helper is added, e.g. tires, brakes, drive train limits, etc.  Maybe those are adequate or maybe not - each would have to be evaluated on its own. The key point is that the rear suspension is not the only factor in determining cargo and tow capacity.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

longhaul

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 10:58:41 PM »
 One of my trucks is a '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins 3.73 NV5600 quad cab with a 13350 lb tow rating.
This truck was made before the useless yellow tire placard payload sticker became mandatory industry wide in '06 era.
 It has a 6000 lb RAWR with a 2840 lb unladin rear axle weight....leaves the truck with around 3160 lb payload in the bed. I keep a scaled front and rear axle load ticket in all of my trucks. That way I know how much payload is available.

 With my 11200 lb 5th wheel trailer and 2200-2280 lb pin weight leaves the trucks rear axle in 5100-5200 lb range. The front axle stays w/i 30 lbs or so with the trailer or empty.
 Of course the Cummins has no problems easily pulling its max tow rating.

 For some reason only known to Dodge , they didn't add a upper overload spring pack on the 3rd gen 2500 trucks. Add 1500 lbs of Redimix in the bed and it sags ....so instead of air bags I went with SuperSprings to help the rear spring pack carry the load LEVEL and still within its rating.
 Many 4wd trucks sit level and start to sag when weight is added and doesn't mean the truck is overloaded.
 
 If you like the truck and want to keep it then simply pay attention the trucks axle /tire load ratings.

satxron

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2017, 12:52:31 AM »
Regardless of if the truck can do it. The horrible "if" is if there is a rear end collision or intersection accident with big injury. The civil and statutory issues for running in excess of the limits can be real heavy.  If the question comes up as to why couldn't this 5er stop will segway right into how much does all this weigh? The engineers that make the trucks go to great pains to figure out how much they can safely pull, load, and stop with.

You really don't want to expose yourself to this type of problem. If the truck is on its limit or may be over the limit, you need a smaller RV or a bigger truck. Don't risk it.

But, opinions are like other things, everybody has one.  :D

FastEagle

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2017, 03:22:51 AM »
One of my trucks is a '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins 3.73 NV5600 quad cab with a 13350 lb tow rating.
This truck was made before the useless yellow tire placard payload sticker became mandatory industry wide in '06 era.
 It has a 6000 lb RAWR with a 2840 lb unladin rear axle weight....leaves the truck with around 3160 lb payload in the bed. I keep a scaled front and rear axle load ticket in all of my trucks. That way I know how much payload is available.

 With my 11200 lb 5th wheel trailer and 2200-2280 lb pin weight leaves the trucks rear axle in 5100-5200 lb range. The front axle stays w/i 30 lbs or so with the trailer or empty.
 Of course the Cummins has no problems easily pulling its max tow rating.

 For some reason only known to Dodge , they didn't add a upper overload spring pack on the 3rd gen 2500 trucks. Add 1500 lbs of Redimix in the bed and it sags ....so instead of air bags I went with SuperSprings to help the rear spring pack carry the load LEVEL and still within its rating.
 Many 4wd trucks sit level and start to sag when weight is added and doesn't mean the truck is overloaded.
 
 If you like the truck and want to keep it then simply pay attention the trucks axle /tire load ratings.

Where is it written that it's OK to exceed the truck's GVWR? Excess axle capacity  is just like excess tire capacity, it's LOAD CAPACITY RESERVES.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2017, 06:29:32 AM »
Longhaul- Even without the yellow sticker, (which by the isn't useless) your truck should have a GVWR, maybe on a white and black sticker or on the manufacturer's literature. Scale your truck and subtract that weight from the GVWR. The total of the RAWR and FAWR is NOT equal to your GVWR. The total of the axle weight ratings is usually higher than the GVWR.
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TonyDtorch

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2017, 06:44:51 AM »
Regardless of if the truck can do it. The horrible "if" is if there is a rear end collision or intersection accident with big injury. The civil and statutory issues for running in excess of the limits can be real heavy.   
The Yellow sticker is only an Attorneys tool in the Commercial vehicle world.
 
In the Rv world, If you can't get stopped for any reason.......you are 100% at fault..   they don't care if you were not paying attention,  or you put too much junk in your truck or trailer.

  Your insurance co. is liable for the limits of the policy either way. Proving Gross or Criminal negligence is financially impractical.   

You can modify your 1/2 ton truck to carry more weight and if it is not used for commercial purposes ...it is perfectly legal.

I can hand start with a hand built steel frame, build a 2 ton special construction truck or Class A motorhome in my garage, get it licensed/insured,  hook it up a hand built trailer,  ...  not a yellow sticker on a single door....and it's legal.   I have done many SPCN vehicles.


IMO>  I would stiffen up the suspension with an good overload spring system and beef up the tires/wheels. Take it out fully loaded and test drive it hard.   If it feels okay, go with it.    :) 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 07:51:11 AM by TonyDtorch »

satxron

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2017, 10:07:33 AM »
The Yellow sticker is only an Attorneys tool in the Commercial vehicle world.
 
In the Rv world, If you can't get stopped for any reason.......you are 100% at fault..   they don't care if you were not paying attention,  or you put too much junk in your truck or trailer.

You can modify your 1/2 ton truck to carry more weight and if it is not used for commercial purposes ...it is perfectly legal.

IMO>  I would stiffen up the suspension with an good overload spring system and beef up the tires/wheels. Take it out fully loaded and test drive it hard.   If it feels okay, go with it.  :)

You disregarding a yellow sticker in your tow vehicle seriously hurting or killing somebody is the attorney's tool in all cases. It goes to negligence on your part. Intentional or negligently causing the mechanical limits to be exceeded turns into money in his pocket.

You are right, you can pull any weight you want until you hit something. Your behaviors before the collision are a factor in evaluating your charges and penalties at the District Attorney's level after the accident.

Your insurance company will pay your limit, it may not be enough for what you owe as a civil judgement.

Then, of course, there is the moral deal. That idea that you may have killed somebody because you didn't want to buy the right size for the tow vehicle capacity. In a push through (towed weight pushes straight when you want to turn away) accident those killed could be your family.

I do understand everything you are saying. I just feel a lot safer taking the advice of the engineers that make this stuff. If they give me a particular load capacity, I pay attention.


FastEagle

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2017, 11:24:31 AM »
Vehicle certification is serious. Vehicle manufacturers cannot “whitewash” the information.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol6/xml/CFR-2011-title49-vol6-part567.xml
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gravesdiesel

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2017, 01:33:10 PM »
Get yourself a 3500 DRW with the Cummins diesel. You will not regret it.  You can pull/haul anything you will ever need or want to.  They hold their value very well too.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 01:47:34 PM by gravesdiesel »
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2003 Dodge 3500 4 door flatbed 4x4 diesel, 6 speed
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(2) 1981 Yamaha G1 2 cycle golf carts
Many other diesels on the farm!

gravesdiesel

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2017, 01:46:47 PM »
One of my trucks is a '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins 3.73 NV5600 quad cab with a 13350 lb tow rating.
This truck was made before the useless yellow tire placard payload sticker became mandatory industry wide in '06 era.
 It has a 6000 lb RAWR with a 2840 lb unladin rear axle weight....leaves the truck with around 3160 lb payload in the bed. I keep a scaled front and rear axle load ticket in all of my trucks. That way I know how much payload is available.

 With my 11200 lb 5th wheel trailer and 2200-2280 lb pin weight leaves the trucks rear axle in 5100-5200 lb range. The front axle stays w/i 30 lbs or so with the trailer or empty.
 Of course the Cummins has no problems easily pulling its max tow rating.

 For some reason only known to Dodge , they didn't add a upper overload spring pack on the 3rd gen 2500 trucks. Add 1500 lbs of Redimix in the bed and it sags ....so instead of air bags I went with SuperSprings to help the rear spring pack carry the load LEVEL and still within its rating.
 Many 4wd trucks sit level and start to sag when weight is added and doesn't mean the truck is overloaded.
 
 If you like the truck and want to keep it then simply pay attention the trucks axle /tire load ratings.
I have the same truck, except 3500.  Love it!  Looking to get a new one set up the same way (diesel, 4 door, 4x4, 6 speed manual, flatbed).  They are a BEAST of a truck!
2016 KZ Spree 262 RKS
2003 Dodge 3500 4 door flatbed 4x4 diesel, 6 speed
1996 Dodge 3500 extra cab flatbed 4x4 diesel 5 speed
2006 Arctic Cat TRV diesel 4x4 ATV
(2) 1981 Yamaha G1 2 cycle golf carts
Many other diesels on the farm!

TonyDtorch

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2017, 04:17:35 PM »
Get yourself a 3500 DRW with the Cummins diesel. You will not regret it.  You can pull/haul anything you will ever need or want to.  They hold their value very well too.
of coarse!   and if money is no object then forget pickups and 5th wheels and get a new Prevost.  you won't regret that.   :)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 05:51:39 PM by TonyDtorch »

TonyDtorch

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2017, 04:24:25 PM »
Vehicle certification is serious. Vehicle manufacturers cannot “whitewash” the information.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title49-vol6/xml/CFR-2011-title49-vol6-part567.xml
Those DOT regs do not even apply to the many thousands of 'Special Construction Vehicles'.

  Only larger scale manufactures that build over a certain amount of vehicles must strictly adhere to manufactures DOT regs.

A private vehicle owner can legally modify any vehicle to make it whatever he wants,   he can paint over or remove every DOT sticker if he wants,  except for the actual VIN plate.
 
A small scale manufacture or home made vehicle have little or no DOT regs to follow. ( I've done several ).    SPCN vehicles can legally be registered in California and many other states and are legal drive on all the roads of America.

 If you build your own vehicle, California only requires a Brake and Light inspection Cert. ($45) and then an assigned VIN number plate is affixed to the chassis by DMV . It will be registered and insured as a SPCN....not a Ford or Chevy no mater what engine it has.       
 You will not see any DOT stickers on a Jessie James motorcycle frame, he didn't make that many motorcycles.

YES...You really can legally build and drive your own home made vehicle here in the United States of America.  You can take a cab from a half ton truck and put it on a military Duce and a half chassis and hook up the biggest 5th wheel you want and go camping.

sorry all you sticker police...GVW stickers are not even an issue for non-commercial vehicles.   :)

   
Don't be afraid....some of these people probably think they can be charged for tearing the label off their mattress.

IMO>    Beef it up, make it stronger,  it will still perfectly legal to drive.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:34:53 PM by TonyDtorch »

TonyDtorch

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Re: Weight Police!! Help me understand
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2017, 06:09:49 PM »
In reality, no attorney will go after a private citizen for Gross Negligence just because the numbscull hooks way too up to large of trailer to a vehicle.

Stupidity is not a punishable offence and for whatever reason they can't teach Common Sense in college.  Chances are most people towing RV trailers have never had any certified drivers instructions on how to safely operate a combo vehicle on the roads anyway.

So, Like all laws...they are only as good as the enforcement.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:45:03 PM by TonyDtorch »

 

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