Choices to make on a 5th wheel...HELP!?!?!

Yes and thank you for your input. Its deceiving at the campgrounds when there are a bunch of 2500 or 250s  pulling a 5th wheels! So I guess I will either buy a 3500 series truck which then begs the question Is a class A motor home a better option. After the 70k truck and 70k toy hauler, I'm in it for a 150k. maybe a class A is a better option. 
I did see the Safety Hitch system. its pretty interesting. have you guys seen this?

AlanD said:

So if this is correct I would add trailer weight of 13,500lb plus gvwr of 9900lb I'm at 23,400.  if i add another 1000lbs. of travel gear, I'm at 24,400.  Cutting it too close? and is this the number I should be looking at?

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  Your 2500 Ram has a tow rating that tells you how much trailer the truck can pull. The truck with the Cummins/drivetrain won't have any problems pulling that much weight. Your fine so far.

Now the bad news part..... your 2500 RAM has those small 6500 RAWR numbers. RAWR includes the wheels/tires and rear springs. Your trucks rear axle  can weigh in the 3100-3200 lb range leaving around  3300 lbs for a payload in the bed. Now add 200 lbs for a hitch and 250 lbs for other gear/stuff and a percentage of occupants which leaves your truck with around 2800 lbs for a wet pin weight.
  Thats your biggest safety issue.
  Some 3/4 ton/one ton SRW truck owners have upgraded to 19.5" wheels and tires with air bags or suspension help such as SuperSprings or other aftermarket products out here. Your call there.

Now you ask why Ram gave the 2500 truck a 16xxx lb tow rating ?? Simply put the tow rating covers all types of trailers...not just a 16k 5th wheel rv trailer that have very heavy hitch weights.
Example is my 16K triaxle goose neck stock trailer I custom haul cattle with. I can load the trailer with the big animals over the trailers axles and the young liteweight stuff in front of the trailers axles to keep hitch loads lite and within the trucks RAWR.

Either mod the truck or look at 12k-13k GVWR 5th wheel trailers.

Phew! You must be really confused by now!

Your truck tow rating is maybe barely adequate for those trailers, but the truck 1936 lb payload is woefully inadequate for any large 5W. A 5W places 20%-25% of its loaded weight on the hitch, which means the truck has to carry at least 20% of the trailer GVWR. That Jayco grosses 16,500 lbs, so the hitch weight is around 3300 lbs. Add in the weight of passengers and the hitch itself and the weight in/on the truck is about 2x the rated payload.

So, more truck or less trailer. Make your choice. There are 3/4 ton trucks with much higher payloads than yours, but for the size of trailer you are looking at, a one ton dually is a much better fit. You will want a payload approaching 4000 lbs.

A Class A toy hauler is a relatively rare beast, so selection on the used market will be limited. I say used because a new Diesel Pusher toyhauler is going to be outside your budget, even throwing the truck cost into the deal. However, a gas model toyhauler runs about $150k, e.g. the Thor Outlaw.

I just bought a 27' 5th wheel(9200lbs). I'm pulling it with my 97 Dodge Ram2500 4x4. I am within about 500lbs of my 16,000lbs max GCWR, maybe even at it. While the truck does pull the trailer fine on level roads, it does need more power for the hills. It handles well even in strong crosswinds i encountered across the plains of New Mexico and Texas. But i would not want to go any heavier without upgrading to a bigger truck, even if it would pull it.

skeeter

Guys!!
THANKS A TON for this information! or at least  3/4 ton. (sorry couldn't help it) So, much to my dismay I will follow everyones advice on this. Just one last grab of hope on a question.... One of you guys mentioned Modding the truck. What would that entail? New rear axle? different suspension? Airbags? I'm sure its not that easy as I would assume someone would have mentioned sooner as an option.
and truly, thanks for all the imput.
cheers,
-Alan

grashley said:

Welcome to the Forum.  Thanks for coming BEFORE purchase!

The Library has a number of articles that may help.

There are 5 different weights that must be considered when towing.  They are truck GVWR (weight of fully loaded truck with trailer attached), Truck GCWR (weight of fully loaded truck and FW combined), Front and Rear GAWR and Max Tow rating.  In my experience, if the GVWR is within limits, the other weights will usually - but not always - be okay.

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The Bold and underlined above ^^^^^^ is a mistake!  The GVWR of the truck is the nameplate number on the white sticker on the door pillar.  For example, a Ford F250 3/4Ton truck would typically be 10,000 lbs  That is the truck only ....Gross Vehicle Weight Rating!

Please listen to the advise of the folks in this forum, or you will not be happy.  You don't have enough truck with that payload for most good size FW.  The ones you mentioned are among the heavier ones. So, you need a different truck or a small FW. Trying to help you.

Here are some Class C haulers. http://racingrvs.com/

You can swap out your rear axle to a DRW type and add the "helper springs" if it does not already have them.  I did this to my 1996 Dodge, which I had ordered new with all the heavy duty options.  If you really like your truck, this may be the way to go.  If not, it definitely has a good trade in value or used market value.  Dodge/Cummins trucks hold their value well.  I am seeking a very similar setup to what you are looking to get, as my ole 2003 has 175,000 miles on it and I use it daily.  I have been considering getting a "fender dually", but really use the heck out of a flatbed.  They are so rugged and handy!  With a truck/fifth wheel setup, you will have the truck for day to day chores and have a vehicle to drive after you set up camp.  With a class A, you have a camper who's engine/powertrain goes unused, except when you go camping.

I did a good bit of research on 5th wheels before I bought mine. I have a 2015 GMC 2500 Duramax with a max pin weight of 2250 lbs. It can tow a 17,000lb. 5th wheel but the pin weight is the limiting factor. I decided to get a 31foot 5th wheel with a gross weight of 10,000lbs. When I weighed it the pin weight was about 1800 lbs. I would not be comfortable going any bigger with this truck. BTW I love my Grand Design Reflection 27RL.

xrated said:

The Bold and underlined above ^^^^^^ is a mistake!  The GVWR of the truck is the nameplate number on the white sticker on the door pillar.  For example, a Ford F250 3/4Ton truck would typically be 10,000 lbs  That is the truck only ....Gross Vehicle Weight Rating!

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You are correct, but only if you include the pin / hitch weight as well, since it is carried by the truck.  My statement was    weight of the TRUCK  with the trailer attached (omitted - trailer NOT on the scale), which is correct, just poorly worded by me.

Sandhill Guy said:

I did a good bit of research on 5th wheels before I bought mine. I have a 2015 GMC 2500 Duramax with a max pin weight of 2250 lbs. It can tow a 17,000lb. 5th wheel but the pin weight is the limiting factor. I decided to get a 31foot 5th wheel with a gross weight of 10,000lbs. When I weighed it the pin weight was about 1800 lbs. I would not be comfortable going any bigger with this truck. BTW I love my Grand Design Reflection 27RL.

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There is a big problem here somewhere!  A 17,000# FW will have a MINIMUM pin wt of 15%, or 2550#.  Well above your stated capacity.  It may have been a published fantasy number, but totally wrong in the real world. 

Your decision to go with a 10,000# FW is very smart on your part.  Based on your numbers, that is very doable.

grashley said:

There is a big problem here somewhere!  A 17,000# FW will have a MINIMUM pin wt of 15%, or 2550#.  Well above your stated capacity.  It may have been a published fantasy number, but totally wrong in the real world. 

Your decision to go with a 10,000# FW is very smart on your part.  Based on your numbers, that is very doable.

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Agreed

grashley said:

You are correct, but only if you include the pin / hitch weight as well, since it is carried by the truck.  My statement was    weight of the TRUCK  with the trailer attached (omitted - trailer NOT on the scale), which is correct, just poorly worded by me.

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Truck GVWR has absolutely nothing to do with the trailer in anyway, shape, or form.  The Truck Gross Vehicle, Weight Rating is just that.....the amount of weight, including the truck, that you can legally have on or in the truck. 

If the truck weighed 9200 lbs and had a GVWR of 14,000 lbs, that would leave you  4800 lbs to add to the truck (the payload).  And that could be a pallet of bricks in the bed that weighs 4800 lbs...OR a load of firewood that weighs 2400 lbs AND a pin weight of your 5ver that is 2400 lbs......OR any other combination that you can think of that totals 4800 lbs.

So if you used up all of your payload (4800 lbs) on that load of brick, theoretically, you couldn't even add a passenger that weighs 150 lbs without being over the payload capacity.  I realize that is a silly example, but the point is, the truck is only going to allow (legally) a certain amount of payload weight and it can be any combination of added weight, such as I've described above.

First off, your truck has the same frame, power train, and brakes that a 3500 dually has. You have the same axles that a 3500 single wheel has. The only thing that makes your truck a 2500 is the suspension.

You can supplement the suspension but your limiting factor is the weight on the tires. If you have enough capacity in the tires, you can certainly pull the trailer.

Having pulled large trailers with SRW trucks many times, you will be low on stability, especially in crosswinds. If you ever blow one of the drive tires on your truck, and still manage to keep the rig upright, be ready to buy yourself a new seat because you will certainly soil it.

lone star dsl is correct.  you can also get load range G tires for these trucks, which will help with carrying capacity, along with the 3500 springs.

Just read through this thread. Interesting information. We have a 27 ft TT but are wanting to upgrade to a 5th wheel in the spring.
I purchased a 2017 F350 SRW Power Stroke a few months ago. My GVWR is 11,500. My payload is 3,435. If I'm reading all this correctly I want to stay in the 12,000 lb or less 5th wheel category to be safely within my limits of the truck for pin weight.. Is this Correct?

bronco78 said:

Just read through this thread. Interesting information. We have a 27 ft TT but are wanting to upgrade to a 5th wheel in the spring.
I purchased a 2017 F350 SRW Power Stroke a few months ago. My GVWR is 11,500. My payload is 3,435. If I'm reading all this correctly I want to stay in the 12,000 lb or less 5th wheel category to be safely within my limits of the truck for pin weight.. Is this Correct?

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12 k loaded not dry.  That still only leaves 1,000 pounds for passengers and cargo and a hitch.  While doable I personally like more wiggle room and not maxing out my payload.  Granted the larger and heavier the truck the less of an issue that may be, if at all.

Gods Country said:

12 k loaded not dry.  That still only leaves 1,000 pounds for passengers and cargo and a hitch.  While doable I personally like more wiggle room and not maxing out my payload.  Granted the larger and heavier the truck the less of an issue that may be, if at all.

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With the storage these newer 5th wheels have I don't see me having much cargo on the truck except the hitch. My wife and I and the dog and a cooler in the crew cab.
When shopping for a 5er should one always use 20% for the pin Weight? 

20% is middle of the road average.  Could be more if you opt to load at lot into the trailer. Could be less if your are a minimalist. 

Without knowing your final weights ( and nobody does with a new purchase) 20% of a max loaded loaded trailer weight, and hopefully staying within 80-85% of your other towing and weight specs gives you breathing room for mis-calculations and other under estimated weight, and should give you a reasonably confident overview.

Strangely a lot of people seem to assume minimal weight and maximum capabilities.