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Author Topic: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.  (Read 1041 times)

garyb1st

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How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« on: August 08, 2017, 05:05:35 PM »
Just put new tires on the Pace Arrow.  Recall that after so many miles, (maybes 100 or so) they're supposed to be re-torqued.  No way I can do that with the equipment I have.  How important is it to re-torque the tires and what do you use? 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

John From Detroit

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 05:51:58 PM »
Re-Torquing depends on several things.

One: How the tires were put on.. Mine the installer used a special centering Nut then it put on all the other nuts, then he took the special nut off and put on the regular ones.. This say the wheel is properly centered from the word GO..  Still... Read on.

My Daughter's second car. First one she bought 100% on her own.. It had Mag/Alum rims.. THe dealer forgot to tell her to come back for a Re-Torque.. Cost 'em big time (They made good on it)

Steel rims.. Not so important.. I do not have the needed tools either. My Torque wrench not that strong.
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garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 06:17:07 PM »
John, pretty sure they're steel.  So if you're suggesting I don't need to re-torque them, I'm good to do. 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

Charlie 5320

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 07:03:25 PM »
John, pretty sure they're steel.  So if you're suggesting I don't need to re-torque them, I'm good to do.

Now ya done it Gary. Now I'm thinking about mine. I've got about 2000 miles since I had my new tires put on, and didn't even give it a second thought, till now. Maybe I'd better call my dealer tomorrow, I'm leaving Monday on another 1000 mile trip.

I sure can't do mine, that's why I went with coach net. 
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xrated

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 07:13:38 PM »
Just put new tires on the Pace Arrow.  Recall that after so many miles, (maybes 100 or so) they're supposed to be re-torqued.  No way I can do that with the equipment I have.  How important is it to re-torque the tires and what do you use?

I seriously doubt that anyone re-torques their "tires".......but probably lots of folks re-torque the wheels after a tire change!   ;D
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Heli_av8tor

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 07:18:19 PM »
Ok, what is the proper torque (steel wheels)?
Tom
Tom & Theresa
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garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 07:28:25 PM »
Sorry Charlie.  But hey, if you get them torqued, let me know what you find out. 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 07:29:15 PM »
I seriously doubt that anyone re-torques their "tires".......but probably lots of folks re-torque the wheels after a tire change!   ;D

I always re-torque my tires.  The wheels are too hard.   ;)
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

xrated

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
I'm with you on that.  I was torquing the rear wheels on my Dually a couple of months ago (160 ft. lbs) and was leaning into it pretty hard and something happened to me that has never happened before in my life.  The 13/16" socket (1/2" drive) broke and I ended up hitting the concrete driveway pretty hard.  It wasn't a cheapo socket set either.....it was a J.H. Williams brand.  After that little incident, I bought a 1/2" battery powered DeWalt impact wrench and a 160 ft. lb. torque extension and a 13/16" impact socket.

It sound like that may have never happened if I had been torquing the tires instead of the wheels.   8)
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Charlie 5320

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 08:12:04 PM »
Sorry Charlie.  But hey, if you get them torqued, let me know what you find out.
Just checked the manual, says to re torque @ 100, 1000, and 6000 after they have been removed. Guess I'll be stopping by wingfoot tomorrow to see if they can get me in. 

22,000 motor home chassis takes 475 ft lb. No way can I do that, and I'd like to see them do that. I'll bet they just run them with an impact wrench.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 08:21:47 PM by Charlie 5320 »
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Robert K

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 04:03:44 AM »
I torque mine to 350 dry 400 lubed. Per Alcoa book for lug size steel rims. Use a jack stand to hold up wrench.
Bob&Sandy
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JoelP

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 08:54:16 AM »
When I had my wheel bearings replaced, I noticed the very spendy looking torque wrench that they used to set the correct torque on my lug nuts. Here is least expensive torque wrench ($284) that can go to 600 ft lbs that I found on Amazon. For more than 600 ft lbs I can only imagine what that might cost.  I think I would be renting that one if I could find it there.

https://smile.amazon.com/Torque-Wrench-Dr-100-600-Lbs/dp/B000K1K0U4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1502286531&sr=8-3&keywords=500+ft+lb+torque+wrench
Joel from San Jose

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Charlie 5320

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 09:01:37 AM »
When I had my wheel bearings replaced, I noticed the very spendy looking torque wrench that they used to set the correct torque on my lug nuts. Here is least expensive torque wrench ($284) that can go to 600 ft lbs that I found on Amazon. For more than 600 ft lbs I can only imagine what that might cost.  I think I would be renting that one if I could find it there.

https://smile.amazon.com/Torque-Wrench-Dr-100-600-Lbs/dp/B000K1K0U4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1502286531&sr=8-3&keywords=500+ft+lb+torque+wrench
You still have to  be strong enough to use it. I'm out, no way could I use that.
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JoelP

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 09:07:11 AM »
You still have to  be strong enough to use it. I'm out, no way could I use that.

Perhaps with a pipe over the end.  With a big enough lever you can move the world.
Joel from San Jose

2010 Itasca Suncruiser 37F
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mel s

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 09:36:05 AM »
Just put new tires on the Pace Arrow.  Recall that after so many miles, (maybes 100 or so) they're supposed to be re-torqued.  No way I can do that with the equipment I have.  How important is it to re-torque the tires and what do you use?

garyb1st
I have the dealer who sold me the tires and mounted them do BOTH the "initial torquing" and the "re-torquing".
(A good tire shop will do the required re-torque at no charge).

garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 09:55:28 AM »
We're heading out tomorrow and will put  2000+ miles on the tires.  Hopefully I can find a local shop to do the torque.  If not, I'll just take my chances.  The same shop put tires on our 1999 Aerbus with 19.5 tires.  Never torqued them after the install and put 30,000 miles on them.   
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 10:34:14 AM »
Over 40 years and many thousands of miles I drove large trucks and had hundreds of tires changed.... I never re-torqued a single lug nut on an aluminum or steel wheel,  and I've never found or heard of a loose lug nut.

IMO...That printed instruction that says you must re-torque the lug nuts every 100 miles is just a bunch of corporate attorney ramblings trying to avoid responsibilities.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 11:08:25 AM by TonyDtorch »

Charlie 5320

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 10:55:06 AM »
We're heading out tomorrow and will put  2000+ miles on the tires.  Hopefully I can find a local shop to do the torque.  If not, I'll just take my chances.  The same shop put tires on our 1999 Aerbus with 19.5 tires.  Never torqued them after the install and put 30,000 miles on them.
My dealer says not necessary, but they will do it if I want, but not free, and the can't do it till Friday morning. I've already got 2000 miles miles since my tires were installed, think I'm going to forget about it. 
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 11:01:51 AM »
I've never taken the motorhome back for a re-torque. The commercial truck tire shop I use doesn't think it is necessary and doesn't do it on other vehicles, but said I could bring it in for a check-up if ever in doubt.

I used to hit the trailer wheels with my lug wrench a few weeks after any changes, "just in case".

When was the last time you checked the wheel torque on your car?  Same thing...
Gary
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 11:13:36 AM »
I guess I'm on the other side of the fence during my 3 decades of wrenching and I am anal about torqueing fasteners, especially wheels, either steel or aluminum. 

Many people think torqueing of wheel studs is for the wheel's protection which is why it is said steel wheels don't need to be torqued or it isn't as critical.  While the steel is more forgiving than an aluminum wheel is correct, the rotors and/or drums are what you want to protect.  With uneven torque applied to wheel studs the cast rotors and/or drums can actually deform due to the stress of uneven torque when they get hot.  By keeping the stresses even when these components get hot they are less prone to distorting or warping.

In my opinion I would have them re-torqued, but have them back them off slightly then bring up to spec.  The biggest issue I see and is one of my pet-peeves at tire shops is when the guy rattles on the lug nut with his impact and THEN grabs a torque wrench and runs around the pattern and they all get the "click" from the torque wrench. ::)  They should be run on evenly and then brought up to the proper torque evenly.  BY merely rattling on with an impact and then kissing them with the torque wrench I guarantee you that they are all over-torqued and the torque wrench is merely telling them that they are at LEAST at the preset of the torque wrench.

Mike

2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 12:20:24 PM »
I put 200k on my last work truck with a perm. equipment mounted maxed out GWV,   and being a boom truck it could be legally over-weight on the 14k steer axle, ..  (it's true). 

 It had 10 ea.  22" alum. wheels on it,  being driven hard on and off road,  it used to eat tires.

I've had many tires changed on job sites and the side of the road by many different independent tire trucks.  Every one of them put a 250 ft. lb. air-gun in the lugs and held the trigger down until the gun stopped ............ torque ?   

In over 4 decades of driving these work trucks,  I never checked them,  I never re-torqued them,  and I've never had a wheel or lug problem.

I guess I was just lucky.    :)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:04:38 PM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 02:46:23 PM »
^^To each their own.  I have never been a fan of relying on luck or hope as a plan yet I know many who do, at least until they have an issue.

Gary asked for opinions or asked who torques their wheels and I gave him my opinion.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 03:08:27 PM »
In my opinion I would have them re-torqued, but have them back them off slightly then bring up to spec.  The biggest issue I see and is one of my pet-peeves at tire shops is when the guy rattles on the lug nut with his impact and THEN grabs a torque wrench and runs around the pattern and they all get the "click" from the torque wrench. ::)  They should be run on evenly and then brought up to the proper torque evenly.  BY merely rattling on with an impact and then kissing them with the torque wrench I guarantee you that they are all over-torqued and the torque wrench is merely telling them that they are at LEAST at the preset of the torque wrench.

Mike

I'm going to err on the side of caution and have them re-torqued.   I may have missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone with a torque wrench after the lugs were put on.   I've used this guy for the past 7 years and get good prices but, they're not really set up for large vehicles. 

Thanks everyones for your input.  Tires out the door $1,600.  Sumitomo 245 75R 22.5.   I've got room in the budget for a re-torque.   ;)
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 04:18:16 PM »
If you go into a real truck tire shop,  go in the back and ask some of the actual tire jockies if they use a torque wrench to tighten the lug nuts ....  they will likely burst out in laughter.   but I'm sure the service writer up front will be more than happy to take your money.

to loosen all six wheels and remove two of them and put a torque wrench on 48 to 60 different nuts,  how long could it take at $90-$100 per hour ?

 IMO..loosening of the lug nuts has never been a problem....and nobody ever re-torques them.     But if it makes you sleep better, then go have it done.   :)


 

   
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:29:08 PM by TonyDtorch »

mel s

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 07:27:50 AM »
Over 40 years and many thousands of miles I drove large trucks and had hundreds of tires changed.... I never re-torqued a single lug nut on an aluminum or steel wheel,  and I've never found or heard of a loose lug nut.

IMO...That printed instruction that says you must re-torque the lug nuts every 100 miles is just a bunch of corporate attorney ramblings trying to avoid responsibilities.

TonyDtorch
Every 100 miles??

There's sign in the shop where I buy tires says they will re-torque the lug nuts after the first 100 miles.
When I returned my coach to the shop they found that 6 of the 40 lug nuts needed to be re-tightended

whokares2

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 08:01:34 AM »
I have supervised the Installation of thousands, no tens of thousands of 22 5 tires in the 36 years of truck maintenance.  Ensure the mating surfaces are clean and free of rust, torque in proper sequence, and they will be fine over 100,000 miles.
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SargeW

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 08:08:30 AM »
In my opinion I would have them re-torqued, but have them back them off slightly then bring up to spec.  The biggest issue I see and is one of my pet-peeves at tire shops is when the guy rattles on the lug nut with his impact and THEN grabs a torque wrench and runs around the pattern and they all get the "click" from the torque wrench. ::)  They should be run on evenly and then brought up to the proper torque evenly.  BY merely rattling on with an impact and then kissing them with the torque wrench I guarantee you that they are all over-torqued and the torque wrench is merely telling them that they are at LEAST at the preset of the torque wrench.
Mike

I was a victim of this with my Jeep. I often rotate my own Jeep tires every 5-6K miles while on the road. Occasionally I use a shop if I am near one.  I had purchased a set of Cooper Tires from Les Schawb, and they offer free rotations as a perk.  I was in WA state and went to a Schawb for a quick rotation, which they did.  5K miles later I was home in the garage and tried to get the wheels off to do another rotation myself.

About half of the lugs were on so tight they wouldn't budge. And that was using a star wrench, a block of wood and my 200# plus frame bouncing on the end.  I had to go to a tire shop in town to get them removed.  The result was that I wound up needing about 6 of the studs and all the lug nuts replaced because the tire jockey stretched the studs, damaging them. 

Now I refuse to let any tire jockey put the lugs on with an impact wrench.  All of them will say "our impact wrenches are set to 80# and we use a torque wrench to tighten them".  But like Mike says, you never know how tight an impact wrench will put the lugs on, and the torque wrench just tells you what the minimum torque is. 

My motorhome wheels are not as much of a concern. They put them on with a 1" impact at 450# pounds+ and the studs are much more robust than those on a passenger car. I also have not had my MH wheels retorqued.
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 08:16:04 AM »
Again, to each there own but I have wrenched for 3 decades and now manage a shop that maintains 46 OTR tractors, 235 box trailers and 25 dollies and we torque our wheels on, period.  But that is just the way I/we do things and I am sure not everyone is that regimented.

It kills me what people call their "professional" shops that support their own theories yet when something does NOT go right their same "professional" shop is the first one to blame because they have incompetent mechanics. ::)  Bottom line is it's your money and your decision, if you think having the wheels torqued on properly is a waste of money then by all means don't bother with it. 

We can go back and forth all day long and we will never convince the other that they are wrong, the OP merely asked a question and I gave my opinion and supplied the facts and details on how I do it, nothing more.

My theory is to maintain a high quality of workmanship, anything else is purely unacceptable.

Mike
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FMCA# F315002

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 08:27:49 AM »
To prove that I actually walk the walk and not talk the talk.

This is my Proto 600 ft/lb torque wrench that gets used anytime I pull a wheel on my coach or anyone's that I work on.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 08:53:37 AM »
Torquing them properly the first time is wise, but IF that is done, I see little reason to re-torque later.  In my opinion, it's basically insurance against a sloppy job the first time.

The problem in all of this is that tire shops rarely do anything other than beat the nuts with a big air-wrench that has a torque setting. From what I see, they use a one size fits all torque setting based on wheel diameter, where "size" is either "big" (trucks, 19.5"-24.0") or "small" (car tires, less than 19.5"). Maybe they test it with a torque wrench after, as Zmotorsports described.  In most cases the lugs are going to be way over-torqued (unless the jockey forgot top reset the air wrench first). Those "tire professionals" mostly aren't very professional about anything except getting the job out the door quickly and with least effort.
Gary
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TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 09:30:48 AM »
To prove that I actually walk the walk and not talk the talk.

This is my Proto 600 ft/lb torque wrench that gets used anytime I pull a wheel on my coach or anyone's that I work on.

Mike
Mike,  do you pull the outside wheel off when you re-torque the the lugs on the inside wheel ?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 09:35:19 AM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 10:05:27 AM »
Mike,  do you pull the outside wheel off when you re-torque the the lugs on the inside wheel ?

No need.  My wheels (as with most on RV's) are a unimount system not the Stud-Mounted or Stud-Piloted style that requires an inner nut and an outer nut.

For the record Gary's title stated "How many torque their 22.5 in tires (I know he actually meant wheels)".  Then in the body of the message he mentioned "re-torqueing".  This is two totally different situations and to avoid any confusion, I/we "torque" ALL of our wheels on our rigs any time they are removed and reinstalled.  The only time we "re-torque" a wheel setup is if we have installed new drums and/or new wheels OR if we had to have one of our tractors or trailers serviced at another shop such as an out of town issue.

I just wanted to clarify initial torque vs. re-torque.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 10:15:05 AM »
but according to the instructions you are supposed to use a torque wrench to tighten the lugs,  and you are supposed to check the tightening of the lugs after 100 miles,  (with a T/W ?)   ...so,  I think there is a re-torque required.

I looked at that Unimount set up.   Correct me if I'm wrong.. but If the lug nuts ever come loose on the rear...you lose both wheels...?
I think that is very different than the semi-truck wheels I used to have.   I think I'd Loctight those and check them every time I stopped for fuel.

Has anyone ever seen a roadside tire truck use a torque wrench ? 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 11:43:56 AM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 11:41:15 AM »
but according to the instructions you are supposed to use a torque wrench to tighten the lugs,  and you are supposed to check the tightening of the lugs after 100 miles,  (with a T/W ?)   ...so,  I think there is a re-torque required.

I looked at that Unimount set up.   Correct me if I'm wrong.. but If the lugs ever come loose on the rear...you lose both wheels...?
I think that that is very different than the semi-truck wheels I used to have.   I think I'd Loctight those and check those every time I stopped for fuel.

Has anyone ever seen a roadside tire truck use a torque wrench ?

From my understanding and what I have done personally is re-check the wheel stud torque after a couple hundred miles on new wheels or drums only.  This is because the metal and wheel have not been heat cycled yet and therefore are still considered "green" castings and can change after some heat cycles.  On used wheels and/or drums I have not seen where a re-torque is necessary nor stated in any of our FSM's.

That being said, I have never seen an RV with a Stud-Piloted drive axle setup, they have all been Unimount and if torqued properly should not have any issues.  Yes you are correct, on a Unimount setup if the lug nuts come loose both wheels are in fact affected.  Basically a bolt is a spring anyways, as the bolt it torqued (tensioned) it is preloaded and therefore stretched somewhat.  This resistance to stretch is what holds assemblies, weldments, etc together.  If the Unimount setup is fastened properly it is still the actual wheel stud that is taking the drivetrains applied driven torque of the wheel same as the Stud-Piloted setup.  The weight itself is not actually sitting on the studs for the most part as they are centered on the hub which is supporting the weight by tapered bearings.

No I have not seen a roadside tire repair use a torque-wrench.  That doesn't mean it is done properly, it just means that I doubt they do it.  That being said, I mentioned above that in the event we have a tire/wheel issue on an out of town trip we pull that tractor or trailer into the shop upon it pulling back into the yard and torque the wheels on ourselves for verification.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 11:58:04 AM »
a roadside repair of that Unimount setup is a little more scary than the old Stud/pilot set up.

If by chance one of those inner wheels was just a little tiny bit unseated,    about 200 miles later you will be watching a set of aluminum wheels pass you on the freeway.

I honestly don't think I'd let any tire truck ever change one of them.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 12:05:39 PM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2017, 12:04:08 PM »

I honestly don't think I'd let any tire truck ever change one of them.

Me either but there are a lot of them that get changed on the side of the road.  Most RV'ers don't have the means to do their own so I understand the concern.  My goal is to just give fellow RV'ers the tools and knowledge to at least request the proper installation when they take their coaches in for repairs.  There are still good and honorable shops out there although they are getting harder and harder to find.

This also supports my reasoning that no one touches my rig but me.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2017, 12:07:50 PM »
Unfortunately,  there may be a lot of RVers that are not physically capable of a roadside tire repair.

IMO....that's a scary setup.  Is there any history of problems ?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 12:14:48 PM by TonyDtorch »

john owens

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 12:19:41 PM »
 :)) :))Great topic Guys...with lively and very robust opinions all around. Special kudos to Mike   Zmotorsports...with very professional info. Great bunch of fellows on this forom!!!!
2011 Winnebago 37F Class A  2012 Unlimited JK 2001 HD roadking  1964 Manx 1641cc buggy 1985 22'Lazy Daze Class C 2007 Chaparrel 26' deck boat..Thats all folks!!

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2017, 01:27:20 PM »
Unfortunately,  there may be a lot of RVers that are not physically capable of a roadside tire repair.

IMO....that's a scary setup.  Is there any history of problems ?

None that we have had nor are aware of.

To be honest, I don't consider it as scary of a situation due to the scenario I mentioned above with the bolt being in tension.  IF the fasteners are tightened to spec then the bolt is tensioned enough to keep the nut tight and therefore very low probability that the nut will back off.  We/I have never used any Loctite or similar on wheel studs and never had an issue nor have I really heard of one.

That being said, you are correct that IF the wheel was placed on the drum/hub and there was foreign debris on the mounting surface this can and will present a potential problem because this will prevent the lugnut/stud from being properly tensioned, even with a torque wrench. 

Even in some of the worst environments I have seen mechanics/tire busters at least run a hand over the mounting surface of the wheel as well as the hub to ensure the surface is free from debris.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2017, 01:33:04 PM »
Unfortunately,  there may be a lot of RVers that are not physically capable of a roadside tire repair.

IMO....that's a scary setup.  Is there any history of problems ?

Also, a road side repair is a problem even for myself who has the tools, etc to do the job properly at home.  If I were to have an issue and need a roadside tire repair I would be at the same mercy as every other RV'er.  The biggest difference is I would make sure to back off and properly torque the wheel at my first opportunity even after communicating my desire to have the work done properly to the mechanic on the road call.

Like I mentioned above discussions like this are to inform fellow RV'ers that there is a proper method to change a tire/wheel (or any other repair for that matter), whether on the side of the road or in a shop.  Arming everyone with this knowledge is how we hold shops and mechanics to the standard we expect when we are paying for these repairs.

Mike
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2017, 01:38:37 PM »
:)) :))Great topic Guys...with lively and very robust opinions all around. Special kudos to Mike   Zmotorsports...with very professional info. Great bunch of fellows on this forom!!!!

Thank you John.  Discussion like this are to prove that there are many opinions on how to do the same job.

Many times these discussions get turned into such a heated debate that it becomes personal and there just HAS to be a winner and a loser to be considered worth while in participating.  These forums are intended for everyone to learn and grow, MYSELF included.

I hope I have not offended Tony as that was not my intention.  I feel we had a good back and forth debate/discussion.

I also hope Gary had his question adequately answered.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
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2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
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TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2017, 02:37:15 PM »
Mike.  Are you saying that the semi wheels now days are Unimount wheels?  Or is this only a mid size motor home wheel ?

What makes them scary to me is you are bolting down 3 seperate pieces with one mount. Any deviation in the crush of  both aluminum wheels and that spacer between will cause all the lugs to loosen up.

What is that cushen material between the wheels ?

I've had wheels leave the truck with a broken axle, it's scary.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:48:18 PM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2017, 02:48:29 PM »
Mike.  Are you saying that the semi wheels now days are Unimount wheels?  Or is this only a mid size motor home wheel ?

What makes them scary to me is you are bolting down 3 seperate pieces with one mount. Any deviation in the crush of all the wheels and that spacer between will cause all the lugs to loosen up.

What is that cushen material between the wheels ?

Tony, yes, all of our OTR trucks and trailers are now using the Unimount system.  I haven't seen any Stud-Piloted setups on new equipment for quite a few years now.

Yes, there are three individual components, being the drum (or rotor on some units), inner wheel and outer wheel. 

Not sure what material between the wheels you are talking about.  I don't know of any material between the wheels.  On our polished aluminum wheels we do use a poly shield that we place over the bolt pattern when removing wheels to keep the socket from marring the surface of the wheel but that is more of a shield or protector and is not permanent, only used when working on the wheel assembly.  I am not familiar with any other material between wheels.

Mike
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TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2017, 04:08:45 PM »
Mike,  you didn't offend me, and thank you for bringing all this up.  I trusted the 'old' way of truck wheel service. But this is a lot different.

So on the OTR trucks, when a tire truck guy pulls off the outside wheel,  the inside wheel could drop out of position ? 

Then you're supposed to just trust a roadside tire truck guy that you will never see again,  that you are cleared to fly 70mph all the way home.....hmm.


Mike,  What keeps the scuff marks off the mated face parts of those polished wheels ?    you never move wheel position on those rims?
Didn't the old system hold a gap between the rims ?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 04:23:52 PM by TonyDtorch »

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2017, 04:30:36 PM »
Mike,  you didn't offend me, and thank you for bringing all this up.  I trusted the 'old' way of truck wheel service. But this is a lot different.

So on the OTR trucks, when a tire truck guy pulls off the outside wheel,  the inside wheel could drop out of position ? 

Then you're supposed to just trust a roadside tire truck guy that you will never see again,  that you are cleared to fly 70mph all the way home.....hmm.


Mike,  What keeps the scuff marks off the mated face parts of those polished wheels ?    you never move wheel position on those rims?
Didn't the old system hold a gap between the rims ?

Glad to hear that I didn't offend you Tony, that was the last thing I wanted.

Yes, things have changed over the years as far as wheel mounting on OTR trucks, but pretty much status quo on RV's.

On polished wheels we run inside buffs (drive and tag) and outside buffs (steer).  The opposite side of either is not polished.  The wheels made full contact even on the Stud-Piloted style of mount.  The backside of the wheel had a conical seat in which resided over the corresponding taper on the inner nut.  This void or area if you will allowed the wheels to sit firmly against each other.

Mike
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TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2017, 06:21:50 PM »
 couple more questions Mike

 we all know 'tight' is very important on every lug nut .. My motorhome even has a warning label to check the lug nuts.

 It appears that some people and or tire trucks still don't use a proper torque wrench procedure to tighten the lugs, and it appears there is no real history or evidence of stud, lug and or wheel failure common in the industry due to improper torque .....so is proper torque really that important ?

I could see if there were wheels were falling off and trucks were crashing all the time, then I'd go out and buy a 200 f/lb torque wrench and throw my impact gun back in the box.

last thing....have you seen those  'color coded Torque extensions'  used on impact guns?  are they a joke or are they ever used on wheels ?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 12:39:32 AM by TonyDtorch »

garyb1st

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2017, 09:11:58 AM »
Mike, thanks for the Torque 101 lesson.  I feel more comfortable after your comment about torque vs re-torque.  I may still have the wheels looked at but only because I don't have a lot of confidence in the guys that did the work. 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2017, 09:36:09 AM »
couple more questions Mike

 we all know 'tight' is very important on every lug nut .. My motorhome even has a warning label to check the lug nuts.

 It appears that some people and or tire trucks still don't use a proper torque wrench procedure to tighten the lugs, and it appears there is no real history or evidence of stud, lug and or wheel failure common in the industry due to improper torque .....so is proper torque really that important ?

I could see if there were wheels were falling off and trucks were crashing all the time, then I'd go out and buy a 200 f/lb torque wrench and throw my impact gun back in the box.

last thing....have you seen those  'color coded Torque extensions'  used on impact guns?  are they a joke or are they ever used on wheels ?

Tony, sorry for the delay, been away from the computer for a bit.

I would not say there is no evidence of problems, are there wheels falling off all over our highways?  No.  However, there is still evidence of problems or we wouldn't spend so much time ensuring the wheels are torqued on properly.  Most if not all shops err on the side of over-tightening the lugs to ensure the wheels stay on.  When this is an immediate problem is when that stud snaps off right then and there where the mechanic is installing the wheel, which does happen more frequently than it should.  Wheel stud torque spec's on heavy trucks and large RV's is in the 450-475 ft/lb range and it is nothing for a 3/4" or 1" impact gun to be upwards of putting out in the 1400-1800 ft/lbs of torque, even my little 1/2" IR gun puts out 1200 ft/lbs of torque.  The main reason we adopted the SOP of properly torqueing the wheels on about 10 or so years ago was the rash of broken studs going through our shop.  The less frequent issue is over-tightening the stud at installation and weakening the stud but not immediately snapping it off.  This is generally recognized by two scenarios, first it is stressed just enough additionally going down the highway that it breaks off the remaining way OR the next time the wheel is being removed the mechanic applies reverse torque on the fastener removing it and it breaks off.  Both scenarios still result in the same outcome that the stud needs to be replaced.  Replacing studs is not a difficult task at all but does take some additional time compared to merely a tire/wheel R&R.

As far as the torque sticks go, I have my own personal opinion about them even though I see them used a LOT, almost exclusively in the automotive industry.  I have played with them and performed my own "bench tests", which is not scientific at all. ;)  My opinion is that they do fall within a "range", however, I feel that range is broader than acceptable to me, again this is my personal opinion and I guarantee not recognized nor agreed upon by the industry as I am sure anyone using them feels the range is perfectly acceptable.  Most of the torque sticks that me and my co-workers tested fell in the 10% +/- range or even broader depending on quality of the tool.  Just for a comparison, the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) requirement for torque specifies that torque wrenches must fall within a 4% +/- range when used within the 20-80% range of a torque wrench, however, this seems to be overlooked or not scrutinized when talking about wheel studs. :-\  All of my torque wrenches fall within the 1-2% +/- range.  As you can see torque sticks are well beyond that range yet perfectly acceptable on wheel studs by the industry.

Is this range of 10% +/- bad?  In my opinion it is better than not using anything and just rattling the lug nut onto the wheel not having any idea of where the torque falls, but it is not as accurate as I would like on my personal vehicles.  Again, I am NOT speaking for the industry, just my personal opinion and the way I do things in my shop on my vehicles or any I personally work on.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2017, 11:50:15 AM »
If stretched or broken studs are an industry problem,   I know when I was building engines I had to measure the rod bolt stretch as the indicator of proper torque,  and rod bolts/nuts were also never to be reused. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 11:59:43 AM by TonyDtorch »

dkreuzen

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2017, 12:18:14 PM »
Having owned my own 200 ft/lb torque wrenches since I was in high school for automotive use. I purchased my 600 ft/lb torque wrench the day after I watched the tire shop install my first set of tires on my first motorhome. EEK! these guys had no idea what they were doing!! Now 14+ years later and many tire changes over 3 motorhomes I can say only one shop knew the proper way to install a large wheel. I always recheck their work when I get home and I have discovered nuts that were way too tight to nuts that were finger tight.
Dennis
2012 Monaco Knight 36PFT
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
2005 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
2007 16' Car Hauler Trailer

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2017, 12:58:44 PM »
If stretched or broken studs are an industry problem,   I know when I was building engines I had to measure the rod bolt stretch as the indicator of proper torque,  and rod bolts/nuts were also never to be reused.

Tony, you are correct, that is the MOST accurate way to measure preload, torque or whatever you want to call it of a fastener.  Unfortunately rod bolts are about the only fastener where the ability to properly measure bolt stretch can be performed.  The downside is with a blind hole or nut on a weldment measuring bolt stretch is not an option due to accessibility.  This is where using a torque specification is the next best thing.  Even then we could get into a deep discussion on the toque values of fasteners being dry or lubricated but that is well beyond the scope of the topic at hand of wheel studs.  By taking the manufacturer's recommendation on bolt size and grade and torqueing the fastener properly you are in essence getting about as close to that "ideal" bolt stretch that you can in that situation.  The manufacturers have carefully measured the proper bolt stretch and what exact torque it took to get that stretch and assigned it a value which in turn is the torque spec.

All fasteners have a yield which is the maximum it can be torqued and still spring back to original dimensions and therefore strength.  If that bolt is over-torqued beyond that yield it will lose its designed strength.  Obviously on an engine with thousands (or tens of thousands in racing engines) of dollars are at risk if a connecting rod/piston assembly spinning around comes loose is the reason why they recommend both measuring the bolt stretch using the "ideal" method as well as not reusing fasteners.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2017, 01:00:02 PM »
Mike, thanks for the Torque 101 lesson.  I feel more comfortable after your comment about torque vs re-torque.  I may still have the wheels looked at but only because I don't have a lot of confidence in the guys that did the work.

You're welcome Gary.  Sorry to hijack your thread and go well beyond the scope of your question but I enjoy the discussion(s).

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
FMCA# F315002

zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2017, 01:05:27 PM »
Having owned my own 200 ft/lb torque wrenches since I was in high school for automotive use. I purchased my 600 ft/lb torque wrench the day after I watched the tire shop install my first set of tires on my first motorhome. EEK! these guys had no idea what they were doing!! Now 14+ years later and many tire changes over 3 motorhomes I can say only one shop knew the proper way to install a large wheel. I always recheck their work when I get home and I have discovered nuts that were way too tight to nuts that were finger tight.

Same thing happened to me Dennis. :)  I started out as an apprentice industrial maintenance mechanic back in the late 80's right out of high school as I had a thirst for everything mechanical (and I figured I could make somewhat better money in the industrial maintenance field vs. working flat rate in automotive :o).  I would eat, sleep and drink engines, cars, bikes, etc (and still do) so I was constantly reading, learning and doing and questioning a lot of things until they made sense or I came to my own conclusions.

That being said, my wife and I purchased our first motorhome in 1995 after having TT and camper.  I had new tires installed on my motorhome and was NOT impressed by the way they just haphazardly installed my tires and wheels so I too purchased a 600 ft/lb torque wrench as well as 10-ton floor jack and 22-ton jackstands and said "never again".  Ever since then when I need tires replaced, I pull my own and bring them to my tire guy and stand right there while mounting/balancing then I return home and install them myself properly.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
2008 Haulmark Edge 26'
2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
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jubileee

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2017, 03:52:04 PM »
I was in the over the road trucking business for over fifty years. Started going to hub piloted wheels in about 1996. ( my 1992 motorhome already had them). Quickly learned that the hub piloted wheels need more attention when tightening than the old budd stud piloted wheels and started torquing wheels. Just once, no follow ups. I believe the difference is that the stud piloted wheels are left and right handed thread and hub piloted wheels are all right handed threads. That was the big selling point for hub piloted wheels. Inventory only right hand outer nut vs inner and outer and left and right handed nuts plus installation ease. I have seen three hub piloted wheels come off (not on my trucks) and they were all on left side.



SargeW

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2017, 05:07:29 PM »
Hey Mike, just an opinion if I may ask. Since the Les Schawb guy destroyed half the wheel studs on my Jeep with his impact gun, what kind of torque would be necessary to do that?  They alleged that their impact wrench was only  set to about 80# and then they torque the rest of the way by hand.  I don't buy it.
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zmotorsports

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2017, 09:32:20 PM »
Hey Mike, just an opinion if I may ask. Since the Les Schawb guy destroyed half the wheel studs on my Jeep with his impact gun, what kind of torque would be necessary to do that?  They alleged that their impact wrench was only  set to about 80# and then they torque the rest of the way by hand.  I don't buy it.

I wouldn't buy it either Marty. Half inch impact guns can run the gammut as far as torque and the higher output the better but this is usually for fastener removal. Myself included, I've upgraded my impact tools over the years as tool manufacturers have pushed the rated torque up and up.

Did you actually see them use a torque wrench after the impact gun?  As long as the nut advanced with the torque wrench then they were fine, but it doesn't sound like it.   

Now I've seen guys start lugnuts and the bump them on with the impact to basically just seat the nut into the conical seat in the wheel and then come back and run around them with the torque wrench and as long as the nut advances and they are crossing the wheel evenly I find this acceptable. I use this procedure on a lot of items such as ring gears, bell housings, even oil pans to speed up the process but the key is to not actually torque the fastener down. You are basically running the bolt in by air and then creeping up on the final torque with a torque wrench but that is not what we've been discussing with wheel installation.

On autos especially Jeeos and vehicles with nice wheels I prefer not to get air tools anywhere near the wheels due to the increased chance of marring. I run the nuts disn with a speeder by hand then creep up on the final torque with a torque wrench.

Mike
2003 Monaco Dynasty Baroness
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2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
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TonyDtorch

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2017, 10:10:52 PM »
You should see what an impact gun can do to a stud on a car with reverse thread lug nuts (on one side).  One young tire jockey broke three of them before he figured it out.

 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:14:54 PM by TonyDtorch »

SargeW

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2017, 07:39:52 AM »
I never observed the guy using the torque wrench Mike. It was just a claim from the manager. I also installed the lugs on my Jeep the same way as you with my own impact gun. However, mine was just old and didn't have enough torque to over tighten, so the torque wrench just completed the job.  I think the guy at Schawb was just rushing through and never bothered to turn the gun down, or use the torque wrench. 
Marty--
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mel s

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Re: How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2017, 07:57:49 AM »
Just put new tires on the Pace Arrow. 
Recall that after so many miles, (maybes 100 or so) they're supposed to be re-torqued. 
No way I can do that with the equipment I have. 
How important is it to re-torque the tires and what do you use?

garyb1st
I do...because re-torquing the lug nuts, (or having them re-torqued), after the 1st 100 miles is not "wrong"

As you have seen a lot of others think it's a waste of time.
To them I say: if you ever have a loose wheel you will change your opinion.

 

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