How many torque their 22.5 inch tires.

john owens said:

) )Great topic Guys...with lively and very robust opinions all around. Special kudos to Mike  Zmotorsports...with very professional info. Great bunch of fellows on this forom!!!!

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Thank you John.  Discussion like this are to prove that there are many opinions on how to do the same job.

Many times these discussions get turned into such a heated debate that it becomes personal and there just HAS to be a winner and a loser to be considered worth while in participating.  These forums are intended for everyone to learn and grow, MYSELF included.

I hope I have not offended Tony as that was not my intention.  I feel we had a good back and forth debate/discussion.

I also hope Gary had his question adequately answered.

Mike

Mike.  Are you saying that the semi wheels now days are Unimount wheels?  Or is this only a mid size motor home wheel ?

What makes them scary to me is you are bolting down 3 seperate pieces with one mount. Any deviation in the crush of  both aluminum wheels and that spacer between will cause all the lugs to loosen up.

What is that cushen material between the wheels ?

I've had wheels leave the truck with a broken axle, it's scary.

TonyDtorch said:

Mike.  Are you saying that the semi wheels now days are Unimount wheels?  Or is this only a mid size motor home wheel ?

What makes them scary to me is you are bolting down 3 seperate pieces with one mount. Any deviation in the crush of all the wheels and that spacer between will cause all the lugs to loosen up.

What is that cushen material between the wheels ?

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Tony, yes, all of our OTR trucks and trailers are now using the Unimount system.  I haven't seen any Stud-Piloted setups on new equipment for quite a few years now.

Yes, there are three individual components, being the drum (or rotor on some units), inner wheel and outer wheel. 

Not sure what material between the wheels you are talking about.  I don't know of any material between the wheels.  On our polished aluminum wheels we do use a poly shield that we place over the bolt pattern when removing wheels to keep the socket from marring the surface of the wheel but that is more of a shield or protector and is not permanent, only used when working on the wheel assembly.  I am not familiar with any other material between wheels.

Mike

Mike,  you didn't offend me, and thank you for bringing all this up.  I trusted the 'old' way of truck wheel service. But this is a lot different.

So on the OTR trucks, when a tire truck guy pulls off the outside wheel,  the inside wheel could drop out of position ? 

Then you're supposed to just trust a roadside tire truck guy that you will never see again,  that you are cleared to fly 70mph all the way home.....hmm.


Mike,  What keeps the scuff marks off the mated face parts of those polished wheels ?    you never move wheel position on those rims?
Didn't the old system hold a gap between the rims ?

TonyDtorch said:

Mike,  you didn't offend me, and thank you for bringing all this up.  I trusted the 'old' way of truck wheel service. But this is a lot different.

So on the OTR trucks, when a tire truck guy pulls off the outside wheel,  the inside wheel could drop out of position ? 

Then you're supposed to just trust a roadside tire truck guy that you will never see again,  that you are cleared to fly 70mph all the way home.....hmm.


Mike,  What keeps the scuff marks off the mated face parts of those polished wheels ?    you never move wheel position on those rims?
Didn't the old system hold a gap between the rims ?

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Glad to hear that I didn't offend you Tony, that was the last thing I wanted.

Yes, things have changed over the years as far as wheel mounting on OTR trucks, but pretty much status quo on RV's.

On polished wheels we run inside buffs (drive and tag) and outside buffs (steer).  The opposite side of either is not polished.  The wheels made full contact even on the Stud-Piloted style of mount.  The backside of the wheel had a conical seat in which resided over the corresponding taper on the inner nut.  This void or area if you will allowed the wheels to sit firmly against each other.

Mike

couple more questions Mike

we all know 'tight' is very important on every lug nut .. My motorhome even has a warning label to check the lug nuts.

It appears that some people and or tire trucks still don't use a proper torque wrench procedure to tighten the lugs, and it appears there is no real history or evidence of stud, lug and or wheel failure common in the industry due to improper torque .....so is proper torque really that important ?

I could see if there were wheels were falling off and trucks were crashing all the time, then I'd go out and buy a 200 f/lb torque wrench and throw my impact gun back in the box.

last thing....have you seen those  'color coded Torque extensions'  used on impact guns?  are they a joke or are they ever used on wheels ?

Mike, thanks for the Torque 101 lesson.  I feel more comfortable after your comment about torque vs re-torque.  I may still have the wheels looked at but only because I don't have a lot of confidence in the guys that did the work. 

TonyDtorch said:

couple more questions Mike

we all know 'tight' is very important on every lug nut .. My motorhome even has a warning label to check the lug nuts.

It appears that some people and or tire trucks still don't use a proper torque wrench procedure to tighten the lugs, and it appears there is no real history or evidence of stud, lug and or wheel failure common in the industry due to improper torque .....so is proper torque really that important ?

I could see if there were wheels were falling off and trucks were crashing all the time, then I'd go out and buy a 200 f/lb torque wrench and throw my impact gun back in the box.

last thing....have you seen those  'color coded Torque extensions'  used on impact guns?  are they a joke or are they ever used on wheels ?

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Tony, sorry for the delay, been away from the computer for a bit.

I would not say there is no evidence of problems, are there wheels falling off all over our highways?  No.  However, there is still evidence of problems or we wouldn't spend so much time ensuring the wheels are torqued on properly.  Most if not all shops err on the side of over-tightening the lugs to ensure the wheels stay on.  When this is an immediate problem is when that stud snaps off right then and there where the mechanic is installing the wheel, which does happen more frequently than it should.  Wheel stud torque spec's on heavy trucks and large RV's is in the 450-475 ft/lb range and it is nothing for a 3/4" or 1" impact gun to be upwards of putting out in the 1400-1800 ft/lbs of torque, even my little 1/2" IR gun puts out 1200 ft/lbs of torque.  The main reason we adopted the SOP of properly torqueing the wheels on about 10 or so years ago was the rash of broken studs going through our shop.  The less frequent issue is over-tightening the stud at installation and weakening the stud but not immediately snapping it off.  This is generally recognized by two scenarios, first it is stressed just enough additionally going down the highway that it breaks off the remaining way OR the next time the wheel is being removed the mechanic applies reverse torque on the fastener removing it and it breaks off.  Both scenarios still result in the same outcome that the stud needs to be replaced.  Replacing studs is not a difficult task at all but does take some additional time compared to merely a tire/wheel R&R.

As far as the torque sticks go, I have my own personal opinion about them even though I see them used a LOT, almost exclusively in the automotive industry.  I have played with them and performed my own "bench tests", which is not scientific at all.   My opinion is that they do fall within a "range", however, I feel that range is broader than acceptable to me, again this is my personal opinion and I guarantee not recognized nor agreed upon by the industry as I am sure anyone using them feels the range is perfectly acceptable.  Most of the torque sticks that me and my co-workers tested fell in the 10% +/- range or even broader depending on quality of the tool.  Just for a comparison, the ANSI (American National Standards Institute) requirement for torque specifies that torque wrenches must fall within a 4% +/- range when used within the 20-80% range of a torque wrench, however, this seems to be overlooked or not scrutinized when talking about wheel studs. :-\  All of my torque wrenches fall within the 1-2% +/- range.  As you can see torque sticks are well beyond that range yet perfectly acceptable on wheel studs by the industry.

Is this range of 10% +/- bad?  In my opinion it is better than not using anything and just rattling the lug nut onto the wheel not having any idea of where the torque falls, but it is not as accurate as I would like on my personal vehicles.  Again, I am NOT speaking for the industry, just my personal opinion and the way I do things in my shop on my vehicles or any I personally work on.

Mike

If stretched or broken studs are an industry problem,  I know when I was building engines I had to measure the rod bolt stretch as the indicator of proper torque,  and rod bolts/nuts were also never to be reused. 

Having owned my own 200 ft/lb torque wrenches since I was in high school for automotive use. I purchased my 600 ft/lb torque wrench the day after I watched the tire shop install my first set of tires on my first motorhome. EEK! these guys had no idea what they were doing!! Now 14+ years later and many tire changes over 3 motorhomes I can say only one shop knew the proper way to install a large wheel. I always recheck their work when I get home and I have discovered nuts that were way too tight to nuts that were finger tight.

TonyDtorch said:

If stretched or broken studs are an industry problem,  I know when I was building engines I had to measure the rod bolt stretch as the indicator of proper torque,  and rod bolts/nuts were also never to be reused.

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Tony, you are correct, that is the MOST accurate way to measure preload, torque or whatever you want to call it of a fastener.  Unfortunately rod bolts are about the only fastener where the ability to properly measure bolt stretch can be performed.  The downside is with a blind hole or nut on a weldment measuring bolt stretch is not an option due to accessibility.  This is where using a torque specification is the next best thing.  Even then we could get into a deep discussion on the toque values of fasteners being dry or lubricated but that is well beyond the scope of the topic at hand of wheel studs.  By taking the manufacturer's recommendation on bolt size and grade and torqueing the fastener properly you are in essence getting about as close to that "ideal" bolt stretch that you can in that situation.  The manufacturers have carefully measured the proper bolt stretch and what exact torque it took to get that stretch and assigned it a value which in turn is the torque spec.

All fasteners have a yield which is the maximum it can be torqued and still spring back to original dimensions and therefore strength.  If that bolt is over-torqued beyond that yield it will lose its designed strength.  Obviously on an engine with thousands (or tens of thousands in racing engines) of dollars are at risk if a connecting rod/piston assembly spinning around comes loose is the reason why they recommend both measuring the bolt stretch using the "ideal" method as well as not reusing fasteners.

Mike

garyb1st said:

Mike, thanks for the Torque 101 lesson.  I feel more comfortable after your comment about torque vs re-torque.  I may still have the wheels looked at but only because I don't have a lot of confidence in the guys that did the work.

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You're welcome Gary.  Sorry to hijack your thread and go well beyond the scope of your question but I enjoy the discussion(s).

Mike

dkreuzen said:

Having owned my own 200 ft/lb torque wrenches since I was in high school for automotive use. I purchased my 600 ft/lb torque wrench the day after I watched the tire shop install my first set of tires on my first motorhome. EEK! these guys had no idea what they were doing!! Now 14+ years later and many tire changes over 3 motorhomes I can say only one shop knew the proper way to install a large wheel. I always recheck their work when I get home and I have discovered nuts that were way too tight to nuts that were finger tight.

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Same thing happened to me Dennis.   I started out as an apprentice industrial maintenance mechanic back in the late 80's right out of high school as I had a thirst for everything mechanical (and I figured I could make somewhat better money in the industrial maintenance field vs. working flat rate in automotive ).  I would eat, sleep and drink engines, cars, bikes, etc (and still do) so I was constantly reading, learning and doing and questioning a lot of things until they made sense or I came to my own conclusions.

That being said, my wife and I purchased our first motorhome in 1995 after having TT and camper.  I had new tires installed on my motorhome and was NOT impressed by the way they just haphazardly installed my tires and wheels so I too purchased a 600 ft/lb torque wrench as well as 10-ton floor jack and 22-ton jackstands and said "never again".  Ever since then when I need tires replaced, I pull my own and bring them to my tire guy and stand right there while mounting/balancing then I return home and install them myself properly.

Mike

I was in the over the road trucking business for over fifty years. Started going to hub piloted wheels in about 1996. ( my 1992 motorhome already had them). Quickly learned that the hub piloted wheels need more attention when tightening than the old budd stud piloted wheels and started torquing wheels. Just once, no follow ups. I believe the difference is that the stud piloted wheels are left and right handed thread and hub piloted wheels are all right handed threads. That was the big selling point for hub piloted wheels. Inventory only right hand outer nut vs inner and outer and left and right handed nuts plus installation ease. I have seen three hub piloted wheels come off (not on my trucks) and they were all on left side.

Hey Mike, just an opinion if I may ask. Since the Les Schawb guy destroyed half the wheel studs on my Jeep with his impact gun, what kind of torque would be necessary to do that?  They alleged that their impact wrench was only  set to about 80# and then they torque the rest of the way by hand.  I don't buy it.

SargeW said:

Hey Mike, just an opinion if I may ask. Since the Les Schawb guy destroyed half the wheel studs on my Jeep with his impact gun, what kind of torque would be necessary to do that?  They alleged that their impact wrench was only  set to about 80# and then they torque the rest of the way by hand.  I don't buy it.

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I wouldn't buy it either Marty. Half inch impact guns can run the gammut as far as torque and the higher output the better but this is usually for fastener removal. Myself included, I've upgraded my impact tools over the years as tool manufacturers have pushed the rated torque up and up.

Did you actually see them use a torque wrench after the impact gun?  As long as the nut advanced with the torque wrench then they were fine, but it doesn't sound like it.   

Now I've seen guys start lugnuts and the bump them on with the impact to basically just seat the nut into the conical seat in the wheel and then come back and run around them with the torque wrench and as long as the nut advances and they are crossing the wheel evenly I find this acceptable. I use this procedure on a lot of items such as ring gears, bell housings, even oil pans to speed up the process but the key is to not actually torque the fastener down. You are basically running the bolt in by air and then creeping up on the final torque with a torque wrench but that is not what we've been discussing with wheel installation.

On autos especially Jeeos and vehicles with nice wheels I prefer not to get air tools anywhere near the wheels due to the increased chance of marring. I run the nuts disn with a speeder by hand then creep up on the final torque with a torque wrench.

Mike

You should see what an impact gun can do to a stud on a car with reverse thread lug nuts (on one side).  One young tire jockey broke three of them before he figured it out.

I never observed the guy using the torque wrench Mike. It was just a claim from the manager. I also installed the lugs on my Jeep the same way as you with my own impact gun. However, mine was just old and didn't have enough torque to over tighten, so the torque wrench just completed the job.  I think the guy at Schawb was just rushing through and never bothered to turn the gun down, or use the torque wrench. 

garyb1st said:

Just put new tires on the Pace Arrow. 
Recall that after so many miles, (maybes 100 or so) they're supposed to be re-torqued. 
No way I can do that with the equipment I have. 
How important is it to re-torque the tires and what do you use?

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garyb1st
I do...because re-torquing the lug nuts, (or having them re-torqued), after the 1st 100 miles is not "wrong"

As you have seen a lot of others think it's a waste of time.
To them I say: if you ever have a loose wheel you will change your opinion.