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Author Topic: I shouldn't have looked...  (Read 2617 times)

Arch Hoagland

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2017, 01:07:28 AM »
My overwhelming thought is that when you find "the" RV you both like and want, then go for it.  You've got two years to USE it off and on before retirement.  Why do people always say they'll do something after they retire??  We started RVing when we were in our 30s and we're still RVing 45 years later and well into retirement.  Life is too short to wait to do and see things.  If you want to go RVing then start now even if it's only a week here and week there.

ArdraF

Amen!
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muskoka guy

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  • 2000 Coachmen Santara 370 isb cummins diesel
Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2017, 08:05:48 AM »
It can take months or even years to find a good used unit. I looked at a lot of dogs trying to find a good one. Private sellers sometimes lie to sell the coach. I have driven hours only to find stuff broken and not working that I asked about on the phone. Dealerships will never give you a good deal. They sell mhs for a living, so you will pay full price. It appears the coach you are looking at is on the high end of the pricing. Maybe they will budge a bit on the price. If where you live requires a  safety inspection, make sure it is included. Even if it is not required, make the sale hinge on a complete rv inspection, even if you have to pay for it. You dont want to pay top dollar, then have to start replacing brakes, tires ect and find out certain things need repaired. This would make it way over priced.  If it is in as good a shape as you say, they wont mind having an outside inspection done. Im sure the sellers would not lie to you, but they may not be as knowledgeable as they think, and are not aware of certain problems. The roof and sealants would require a good inspection on a unit that old. Once you buy it, its your headache. Better to spend a few hundred on an inspection, then be out thousands in repairs. See the thread sour lemonade on this forum. His story is about a trailer, but its basically the same thing. Good luck and happy camping. No time like the present to get started.

malexander

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2017, 08:46:25 PM »
We bought our first RV in 1997, 23' +/- 5th wheel, I was 38 wife was 35. Don't wait till you retire. Enjoy life NOW. My signature line tell you what we have now.

You said you have the money......GO FOR IT!!!
Marshall Alexander
2007 Fleetwood Bounder 38N DP, 2008 GL 1800 Goldwing, 2007 VTX 1300, Cessna 150 & 172, Rans S19 Venterra

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2017, 08:55:36 PM »
Well, The Bear got to see it today. Of course she liked it, but without a point of reference she really didn't know how much or little. The seller told us that someone had looked at it earlier today and said they would take it, but he had no money in hand, so we know that means basically nothing. I took a picture of the original sticker with all the options and used them on the NADA estimator. I didn't really understand all of the option choices, but I came up with a value just under 25K. The tire date codes are 3600, so it appears that these are the tires it was born with. Furthermore, the fronts are Goodyear G159 which I understand are rolling bombs, on top of being 17 years old.

So, armed with this info this MH seems to be worth 20-22K. Since we are in no hurry we will probably leave it be for now. If he still has it when winter rolls around I may offer him 20K. Most likely someone else will grab it and start enjoying it right away. If that happens I'll be happy for them.

This forum is a great resource. Just the tire advice saved me thousands, not even considering the safety factor. Thanks 
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

WILDEBILL308

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2017, 09:03:16 PM »
With those date codes I wouldn't want to take it for a test drive. :-\
Hearer is a good place to do research as they have a section that tells you what things sold fore. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/
PPL is a consignment dealer.
Bill
2003 Bounder 38N
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Home base Fort Worth, Texas
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SeilerBird

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2017, 09:08:25 PM »
You are not using NADA properly. You do not add in the options. You missed this line found on every page listing options:

"Option note: Only select options below that are in addition to standard equipment and equipment noted in the manufacturer or year notes show above. If you are uncertain of what came standard, please contact your manufacturer with your VIN."

In other words just skip the options totally. They are all basically worthless anyway since most of them don't age very well.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2017, 09:12:13 PM »
I just went by the window sticker. There was a section for standard equipment and a section for options. I added in things that were listed as options.

It sold for just over 92K new.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 09:14:35 PM by GeorgeandTheBear »
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

Charlie 5320

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2017, 09:51:53 PM »
I just went by the window sticker. There was a section for standard equipment and a section for options. I added in things that were listed as options.

It sold for just over 92K new.
I don't know how you came up with price. Everything on the coach won't be an option. I come up with $16000.00, which is low retail for that coach. The reason I say low retail is because it needs tires, and those are NOT cheap. If he hasn't replaced the tires, one must wonder what else wasn't maintained. I did figure as options electric step, awning, and hydraulic levelers. Here's a link  to what I think it's worth.
 http://www.nadaguides.com/RVs/2001/Georgie-Boy/M-3515DS-Ford/3006728/Values.

What else do you think it has as an option?
2003 National Dolphin 5320
496  8.1  Workhorse

98 Damon Daybreak 3130
GM Vortech 454  4L80E
SOLD

WILDEBILL308

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2017, 10:11:14 PM »
I just went by the window sticker. There was a section for standard equipment and a section for options. I added in things that were listed as options.

It sold for just over 92K new.
I would go look at PPl so you can get a better idea for what used coaches are going for. There are some nice coaches for $25,000 or less. You might look at the diesel coaches to,you never know.
In gas coaches I would get as new as you can afford. The newer have better engines and transmissions. Plus better amenities. You can get financing on a 10 year or newer coach much easier than a coach over 10 years old.
Bill
2003 Bounder 38N
300 HP 5.9 Cummins
Allison 3000MH Trans.
Towing 2014 Honda CRV
Home base Fort Worth, Texas
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
-Mark Twain-

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2017, 10:28:04 PM »
I know everything on the coach won't be an option. That's why I only went by what was listed on the OPTION section of the sticker, nothing from the standard equipment column.

The owner is 76 years old and I think this is the only one he has ever owned. Many, many vehicles are on the roads with tires over 7 years old. I doubt that he ever knew that tire age could be an issue. It has only seemed to rear it's head in this era where everyone seems to want to sue over every single thing. I know these people, they are meticulous about everything, just probably don't get, or even know about tire dates.

I have no desire for a diesel coach. The local Ford dealer's best tech also moonlights and I use him when I can. If at all possible I will buy one with the Ford gas powertrain. As I said in an earlier post, I don't need financing.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 12:05:11 PM by GeorgeandTheBear »
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

SeilerBird

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2017, 11:41:16 PM »
Many, many vehicles are on the roads with tires over 7 years old.
Tires on an RV that are over 7 years old are extremely dangerous. Tires don't wear out from the outside but from the inside making them weak and subject to a catastrophic blowout. A blowout on an RV is not the same as a blowout on a normal car or a semi truck. A blowout can do a lot of damage to the wheel well and the plumbing, electrical and propane systems located nearby.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Life list of birds:
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Isaac-1

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2017, 11:43:30 PM »
As was mentioned the problem is a blowout on a motorhome can easily do $5,000 to $10,000 worth of damage or more.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Charlie 5320

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2017, 08:37:55 AM »
I know everything on the coach won't be an option. That's why I only went by what was listed on the OPTION section of the sticker, nothing from the standard equipment column.

1 Many, many vehicles are on the roads with tires over 7 years old. I doubt that he ever knew that tire age could be an issue.
2 I know these people, they are meticulous about everything, just probably don't get, or even know about tire dates.
3 The VIN is xxxx [VIN removed at GeorgeandtheBear request] if someone can come up with a more accurate value.
1   There very well be vehicles on the road with tires over 7 years. This coach has tires that are over 17 years old, big difference.
2   with tires 17 years old proves they are NOT meticulous about everything.
3   Go to the link I gave you, that gives the value, you just don't want to accept it.

George if you want to pay 10 grand over what this coach is worth, go ahead. It's YOUR money. There is NO WAY I would pay more than high retail on any coach. Dealers aren't even asking what they are for comparable coachs. You buy the coach and want to trade it next year, you won't even get 12 grand for it trade in. Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear. List what options what YOU think are options on this coach. Sure like to see the list.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 05:55:24 PM by Gary RV_Wizard »
2003 National Dolphin 5320
496  8.1  Workhorse

98 Damon Daybreak 3130
GM Vortech 454  4L80E
SOLD

JoelP

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2017, 08:51:09 AM »
Well, The Bear got to see it today. Of course she liked it, but without a point of reference she really didn't know how much or little. The seller told us that someone had looked at it earlier today and said they would take it, but he had no money in hand, so we know that means basically nothing. I took a picture of the original sticker with all the options and used them on the NADA estimator. I didn't really understand all of the option choices, but I came up with a value just under 25K. The tire date codes are 3600, so it appears that these are the tires it was born with. Furthermore, the fronts are Goodyear G159 which I understand are rolling bombs, on top of being 17 years old.

So, armed with this info this MH seems to be worth 20-22K. Since we are in no hurry we will probably leave it be for now. If he still has it when winter rolls around I may offer him 20K. Most likely someone else will grab it and start enjoying it right away. If that happens I'll be happy for them.

This forum is a great resource. Just the tire advice saved me thousands, not even considering the safety factor. Thanks

But, now you know that both you and your DW like a Class A.  Seems to me you should expand your search to Class As until you find the ideal floor plan and manufacturer and then do a systematic search using something like RVTrader.com.  Now that you have seen a Class A and liked it, you will be comparing everything else to that and and will regret buying any Class A or Class C that excites you less, especially since you now realize that you can afford one of those.
Joel from San Jose

2010 Itasca Suncruiser 37F
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GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2017, 09:01:22 AM »
Charlie,

1 - I agree, and would plan on replacing them if I bought it.
2 - I still stand by my statement. This is just a lack of knowledge. I doubt there is anything in the documentation for this coach about tire dates. I know that 20 years ago I never heard anything about the age of a tire. I think this is a product of the Ford Explorer/Firestone issue.
3 - I'm confused here. I go to the link and it states an average retail of $24,990.

As I stated last night, we're probably going to pass on it unless the price comes down significantly. As far as trade-in value, I've never traded in a vehicle in my life. I've never been offered anything close to what I get by selling privately. That being said, I always get the vehicle price nailed down before I mention that I may trade. This gets the actual trade-in price and not just the price on paper.

I have the photo I took of the option list, but don't know how to post it here. I could e-mail it to you if you wanted to post and decipher it. I didn't photo the whole sticker, just that section.
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2017, 09:08:38 AM »
Quote
I took a picture of the original sticker with all the options and used them on the NADA estimator. I didn't really understand all of the option choices, but I came up with a value just under 25K.

I know this seems strange, but the factory option list for a motorhome is not a realistic way to assess its marketable options. The NADA RV price is "as typically equipped" rather than "how the factory came up with a price".  As typically equipped means the way dealers order them for their sales lot and the way buyers expect them to be.  For example, NADA pricing for a motorhome assumes an awning and generator, whether the factory called them options or standard. On a Class A I think  electric steps and leveling jacks are also assumed.  If it did not have those features, most buyers would DEDUCT for them! So would a dealer on trade-in or re-sale.

I cannot imagine what sort of options a 2001 GB Cruise Master could have that would raise the retail price several thousand dollars.

In any case, the tires are a disaster waiting to happen. Argue all you like whether 7 years is a high risk age, but Michelin says their tires are a useful life span of 10 years max, and then only with regular inspections. Not 17! And I would challenge anybody to find many vehicles on the road with 17 year old tires. Or even 10 year old.

RVs are about the only class of vehicle where the tire is likely to get very old before it is physically worn out (tread wear) or damaged. There are probably some cars driven by the proverbial "little old lady" as well, but those aren't common.  We bought one of those once, a like-new Oldsmobile station wagon that was 9 years old and had 21k miles on it.  3 tires failed within a year!
Gary
--------------
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Alfa38User

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2017, 09:15:51 AM »
Quote
I doubt there is anything in the documentation for this coach about tire dates.

Documentation?? No there isn't but the tire manufacture date is stamped into each tire starting with the DOT designation. Information on how to decode this  can be found here: http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?action=Glossary under " tire manufacturing"....

Although the problem with old tires applies to all tires, automobiles have much less of a problem because they are used much more often. It becomes much more prominent in tires that do a lot of sitting around between uses as in motor homes. 7 years old is the usual accepted maximum lifetime of a motor home tire.

The options originally installed in the motor home is almost meaningless as it is too difficult to determine what was 'standard equipment" and what was a paid for option unless it was something expensive like a 2nd air conditioner etc.The estimated values listed under the online NADA are based on annual depreciation from the MSRP alone when added equipment is not considered and the MSRP (Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price) is supposed to contain all the standard options prices. The printed NADA book that is used by dealers, banks, etc is much more detailed.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 09:22:53 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
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"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2017, 09:30:54 AM »
I don't get where you guys think I'm trying to justify that 17 year old tires are not a disaster waiting to happen. You're putting words into my mouth. I agree that I would be afraid of them and would replace them immediately. I'm just quantifying the lack of knowledge of a couple nearing 80 that probably doesn't spend a ton of time on the web like we do. That being said, when a tire reaches 7 years old I'm not going to be terrified and think they are all going to pop at 7 years, 1 day.

Once again, I have known these people for over 50 years. Their brother was our next door neighbor, my dad's best-man, and sadly a pallbearer. Their nephew was my best friend growing up. I've been hunting and fishing with three generations of this family. When they remodeled my bathroom we left for four days and let them have the run of the house. These are not some strangers I met through Craigslist.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 09:45:07 AM by GeorgeandTheBear »
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2017, 09:35:13 AM »
After reading some new posts, I would say this coach is "Typically equipped".
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

SeilerBird

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2017, 09:50:39 AM »
I love it when people come here to ask our opinion and then argue with the experts that they are wrong. We are trying to help you. Tires are not going to magically pop at 7 years and one day, however at that age they start to become dangerous. Considering the risk it is an expensive gamble. If I were to buy that RV I would have it towed to a tire shop. I have been hearing this as long as I have owned RVs which is a long time. The RV you are looking at is worth $15k at the most. No matter what NADA says and no matter how long you have know these people. It doesn't natter if it is typically equipped or not. All used RVs are judged by the same standard. It is used so the options do not matter. If you want to overpay that is your prerogative. But since you really don't know anything about RVs I would suggest you slow down and start learning about them before spending the money. As I said before you need to rent one or two and you and you need to drive a few and walk through a whole bunch. Typically I spend three to six months shopping for an RV. If you stumbled into the RV of your dreams on the first one I am happy for you but if you buy it right now I doubt if you would keep it longer than a year. That is the typical lifespan of a newbys first coach. You gotta use one for a while to figure out what it is you really want in an RV.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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Grand Canyon photos:
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GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2017, 10:05:01 AM »
I know you guys are trying to help me and you have. I've already said we are probably going to pass on it, agreed that the tires are dangerous and the price is too high. I obviously don't understand the NADA thing, I was just stating what I actually saw in the link provided. I don't have rose colored glasses on regarding this MH. Regarding the people that own it, I don't need them.
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

SeilerBird

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2017, 10:21:14 AM »
The reason the options are worthless is because they are usually what goes bad on old RVs. The microwave, refer and all the other appliances are like 17 years old. And the have been living in a bad environment. Motorhomes are driven down bumpy roads at 65 mph and that is very hard on appliances. These appliances are not generally designed specifically for motorhomes, they are usually off the shelf units designed for commercial use. Except the refer and hot water heater which are designed for a motorhome. But the vibration destroys the seals on the refer meaning that it will not keep things as cold as it should. It would be almost impossible to find an RV over 5 years old that the refer seals were still viable. Also there is the problem that these options are not really what the buyer wants, but you can't configure a used RV to your specifications. This is the exact same advice every newbie gets here. Ignore the options.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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Grand Canyon photos:
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GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2017, 10:26:24 AM »
This is the exact same advice every newbie gets here. Ignore the options.

10-4, Thanks. I wasn't being argumentative. I really just didn't understand and that's why I'm here.
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

WILDEBILL308

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2017, 01:19:38 PM »
"The owner is 76 years old and I think this is the only one he has ever owned. Many, many vehicles are on the roads with tires over 7 years old. I doubt that he ever knew that tire age could be an issue. It has only seemed to rear it's head in this era where everyone seems to want to sue over every single thing. I know these people, they are meticulous about everything, just probably don't get, or even know about tire dates."
He may not have known about age of tires being a problem but you should. It has nothing to do with everyone seems to want to sue over every single thing. It has to do with safety. Michelin does say 10 years is the max, they also state that after 7 the tiers should be dismounted and inspected by a dealer every year. So that is $50.00  each tire to demount and remount and balance it becomes cheaper to just get new.  You can check around no tire store will work on a 10 year old tire. Some tires don't make 7 years. I lost tread on a inside duell Friday. I was replacing the front tires as they were 7 years old and had a problem with a 5 year old tire.
Bill
2003 Bounder 38N
300 HP 5.9 Cummins
Allison 3000MH Trans.
Towing 2014 Honda CRV
Home base Fort Worth, Texas
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
-Mark Twain-

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2017, 01:35:18 PM »
Once again, I agree the tires are dangerous and need to be replaced! I never said they didn't.

What I said about the world being "sue happy" and the "Ford/Firestone" debacle is my opinion, nothing more...geez
Voted most likely to end up working at a car wash.

WILDEBILL308

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2017, 03:13:25 PM »
Once again, I agree the tires are dangerous and need to be replaced! I never said they didn't.

What I said about the world being "sue happy" and the "Ford/Firestone" debacle is my opinion, nothing more...geez
Just trying to educate you so the Bear doesn't have to. ;D
Bill
2003 Bounder 38N
300 HP 5.9 Cummins
Allison 3000MH Trans.
Towing 2014 Honda CRV
Home base Fort Worth, Texas
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
-Mark Twain-

Charlie 5320

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »
The NADA RV price is "as typically equipped" rather than "how the factory came up with a price".  As typically equipped means the way dealers order them for their sales lot and the way buyers expect them to be.  For example, NADA pricing for a motorhome assumes an awning and generator, whether the factory called them options or standard. On a Class A I think  electric steps and leveling jacks are also assumed.  If it did not have those features, most buyers would DEDUCT for them! So would a dealer on trade-in or re-sale.
Gary, I've looked at a LOT of mid to late 90s and early 2000 coachs. Only about 50% of them had hydraulic levelers and less than that had electric steps. A lot of entry level coachs DON'T come with all the goodies. Many don't even come with an awning or a generator. People forget this stuff when they are accustomed to the higher end coachs.

Just because a dealer orders a coach a certain way don't mean it wasn't an option for that particular coach. How many late 90s Winnebago Warriors or Braves have you seen with levelers?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 03:55:31 PM by Charlie 5320 »
2003 National Dolphin 5320
496  8.1  Workhorse

98 Damon Daybreak 3130
GM Vortech 454  4L80E
SOLD

GeorgeandTheBear

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2017, 07:24:15 PM »
Well, I'm pretty bummed today. Not because we didn't get the motorhome which I think they sold last week, but the seller passed away today. I knew he had health issues, just didn't know how far advanced. Just reinforces how trivial material things actually are. RIP Fabian.
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SargeW

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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2017, 08:17:02 PM »
Yep, but that also shows you why you can't wait until "the right time" to make that next step. You may not be around long enough to take that step.
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Re: I shouldn't have looked...
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2017, 09:39:58 PM »
Didn't Ford update the V10 to 4 valve at some point? Not that the 2 valve was bad but you may want to find out what year it was for future shopping.

 

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