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Author Topic: Will this truck and trailer work?  (Read 516 times)

1fxstbi

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Will this truck and trailer work?
« on: August 22, 2017, 10:20:18 PM »
Hi All,
Long time lurker and first time poster. We are shopping for an RV and truck and are confused about all the conflicting information we seem to be getting from dealers and what I'm reading on the 'net. In a nutshell; we are wanting to get a new GMC 2500HD 4x4 with the Duramax and it comes with 3:73 gears in the rear. We're interested in a Carbon 347 fifth wheel and it shows a hitch weight of 3050 and a dry weight of 12,350. carrying capacity of 4650. All my numbers are out of the brochure and from what I've read they may not be accurate. Does anyone have this or a similar combination that can tell us if it will work? I don't want to get a one ton truck or dually if I can avoid it. Any assistance will be appreciated. Thanks

VallAndMo

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  • Vall and Mo, a married couple getting ready for FT
Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 12:33:49 AM »
Hi 1fxstbi,

It's difficult to be sure because neither GMC nor Chevy seem to publish detailed, per-axle dry-weight and gvwr numbers for their trucks... But I'm pretty sure that this trailer is solidly into full 1-ton truck territory, and probably will also require DRW to be towed safely.

Cheers,
--
   Vall.

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 02:08:41 AM »
That 5ver, with a GVWR of 17,000 lbs is going to have a loaded hitch weight (figuring 20% of the trailer weight) of at around 3400 lbs.  Add in another 200 lbs for the hitch and you're at 3600 lbs.........and all of that before you add passengers, cargo, tools, firewoods, whatever else you choose to take along.  I'm not thinking that a 2500 is going to be up to task  on a seriously big trailer like that one.  With everything combined, I could easily see over 4000 lbs of payload when you are done loading everything up and ready to travel.  Most likely you're into Dually territory.
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Gods Country

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 06:50:48 AM »
There are a few things many newbies overlook, and salesmen routinely take advantage.
Regardless of what the truck may be able to haul or pull by design it is limited by the GVWR.  Having a diesel, and good gears, and an Allison transmission, etc, etc is all great, but if the payload of the truck is weak none of it means anything because you have either exceeded or maxed out your TV's weight limit.  This is why the trailer and car lot salesmen play games with their published capacities.

When you find a trailer you want ALWAYS use the max weight for your calculation.  I can all but guarantee you will be closer to that weight then the dry weight.  Why is this important? Because the extra weight translates into additional payload use.  So that's about 12% for a bumper pull trailer, and about 20% for a 5W of the trailers max weight.  See why the brochures flaunt the dry weight?

Whichever TV you are interested in the first thing you do before you gawk at the color or the chrome, of the spiffy inside trim package, and all the other things the salesmen use to distract you, open the drivers side door and read the yellow sticker.  Fortunately these days the payload is listed.  If the weight is less then roughly 80-85% of what you intend to haul (The above mentioned trailer weight %, passengers, tools, you name it) close the door and keep looking.  See why the brochures show a truck hauling a semi up a mountain?

IMO when that number is satisfactory then you can start looking at engine, gears, gross combined weight, towing capacity, etc, etc.  The vehicles payload is often the most overlooked and overloaded of a TV's ratings.  It's easy to check with the correct trailer weight, and will filter out the TV's that won't work real quick.  It will also help you decide whether you are obviously looking at too little truck or too much trailer.  This needs to be done with every truck.  The payloads vary quite a bit depending on various options. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 06:56:01 AM by Gods Country »

1fxstbi

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 08:08:46 PM »
Thanks guys for contributing, I'm getting a clearer understanding of the calculations necessary to chose wisely. I was concerned that I would be pushing the limits of the truck. We have alternative trailer choices that will get the hitch weight down around 2k and the dry weight in the 11k range. In my simple mind it looks like this might work. If you don't think I'm on the right track don't hesitate to let me know!   Thanks again!

grashley

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 08:16:29 PM »
Typed while you were responding.

Welcome to the Forum!

Here is why you should NEVER believe a salesman.       http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,90933.0.html

First, NEVER use published data for any capacity numbers.  For the FW, use the GVWR (one of the few correct - or close numbers) for the weight when traveling, and 20% of GVWR as estimated Pin Weight.  Nobody goes camping with an empty trailer, and if you are less than GVWR, you have a bit of a safety margin.

For the Tow Vehicle (TV), there are 5 critical numbers. 
GVWR, or the most the fully loaded truck can weigh, including the weight from the camper.
GAWR, or Gross Axle Weight Ratings, separate numbers for front and rear axles.  These will add up to more than GVWR so you do not have to perfectly balance a load.
GCWR, or Gross Combined Weight Rating, which is the weight of the TV, FW, and anything else being towed.
Max tow Rating is a number generated by advertising, and is rarely even remotely accurate, but touted by dealers.
Generally, if you are within GVWR, all other numbers will be fine.

WHAT CAN I TOW?

By definition, Payload or Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC) is GVWR - actual weight of empty truck with full fuel tank.  The Yellow Label referenced by Gods Country, is this number, based on the weight of the truck as it left the factory.  This number MUST  be bigger than the total load you intend to carry, including FW pin wt, weight of a FW hitch, all passengers, pets, cargo, tools and firewood carried in the cab or bed of the truck.

As an example, the FW you quoted has a GVWR of 17,000# =>Pin wt of 3400# (20%).  I will assume only 2 passengers at 150# each = 300#, a FW hitch, 200#, and 200# misc cargo.  In this case, you intend to carry 3400 + 300 + 200 + 200 = 4100#  Your truck payload PER THE YELLOW LABEL must be at least 4100#

Bad News:  This is well beyond the capacity of a ton truck.     Good News:   A 1 ton will work, and is almost the same price.

The 1 ton SRW is physically the same as the ton cousin, but has a beefier suspension and a higher GVWR.  It is less than $1,000 more new, and the same price used.  The extra capacity is well worth the cost.

To get a SRW to meet the payload, it may be a reg cab lightly or moderately equipped truck.  Check the Yellow Label.

A dually will have no problems as it is usually an extra 2000# of payload.

Continue your research, and this will begin to make sense.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

RVRAC

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2017, 09:10:05 PM »
I don't know what your truck's payload is according to the numbers in your door jam.  However, my son has that same combination but on a Silverado.  His has all the options possible but has a low payload of only about 2,400#.  I am sharing with you what I said to him.  That truck does not have enough payload.  He couldn't believe it as he assumed that because it was a diesel it was ok. The FW you want needs at least a SRW 1 ton truck.
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steveblonde

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2017, 09:54:30 PM »
Hi All,
Long time lurker and first time poster. We are shopping for an RV and truck and are confused about all the conflicting information we seem to be getting from dealers and what I'm reading on the 'net. In a nutshell; we are wanting to get a new GMC 2500HD 4x4 with the Duramax and it comes with 3:73 gears in the rear. We're interested in a Carbon 347 fifth wheel and it shows a hitch weight of 3050 and a dry weight of 12,350. carrying capacity of 4650. All my numbers are out of the brochure and from what I've read they may not be accurate. Does anyone have this or a similar combination that can tell us if it will work? I don't want to get a one ton truck or dually if I can avoid it. Any assistance will be appreciated. Thanks
I had a 2013 chev 1 ton 3500 and a 2015 voltage very similar to your carbon - however, my voltage weights more and my 3500 has a higher payload and was within 200 lbs
So in short that truck is no where near enough truck you need a 3500 srw min or a dually
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5200lbs cargo/weight capacity named Kong


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh?

1fxstbi

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 05:37:40 AM »
Truck shopping with the door tag being my primary focus. I'll post my findings later today.

grashley

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 07:24:03 PM »
Excellent decision!

A couple comments on Payload:  As I said before, Payload = GVWR - truck wt.

Within a specific drive train, the GVWR should be the same.  The weight of the truck becomes the big factor.  Bigger cab, lower payload.  Long bed, lower payload.  More options means lower payload.

For example, All 3500 SLE CC Reg bed diesel 4X4 will have similar Payloads because they are similarly equipped.  To have a significant impact on Payload, look at a lower trim level or lighter cab / bed combination.

After you recover from sticker shock, you may wish to consider late model used trucks, too.

Happy Shopping!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

RedandSilver

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 07:54:24 PM »
IF you can afford a new 2500 then I would also be looking at 3500's as they are not too much more $$$.

There is no such thing as too much truck and limiting yourself by getting a smaller/lighter 5er is something you might very well regret someday.
And upgrading either a truck or a 5er or both gets expensive.  Buy a littler bigger then you think you need and it will save you from
upgrading so soon if you ever need to at all.  JMO.
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp

QZ

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 08:47:12 PM »
I agree with at least a 1 ton and that's with the lighter weight model  that you mentioned.  I have a Ram 3500 CTD SB CC SRW pulling a 12,500 FW and a 2700 pound utility trailer and it's sized about right. My understanding is when you go over 15,000 or around there you consider a dually.  My son has a 2012 Ram 2500 CTD LB CC pulling 10,000 gross FW 35 ft bunk ad he said it seems perfect yet he's probably over on his payload by 200 or 300.  My truck with 3:42 gears will also do just about 23 to 24 mpg empty. Back in the day a one ton was a big deal but not any more and it's not much more money.   My sons payload is about 2140 and my one ton is 3960. 1800 pounds is a heck of a jump up.

DO NOT listen to the majority of dealers. They are there to sell and many have never even owned an RV.

1fxstbi

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2017, 05:25:18 AM »
All I can say is "wow, what an eye opener"! You guys were spot on with all the tips and advice, the door tags said it all. We're pretty much stuck on a 3/4 ton non-dually because of how we use the truck the major percentage of the time it's not pulling a big trailer. We looked at stripped down models to the fully loaded and the cargo capacity varied several hundred pounds between the two. Everything was too light to do us any good! The stripper was close but the towing for a 3/4 is rated at 14k, so that is too light. Obviously we are in 1 ton dually territory as stated by everyone!

When we started this quest we were looking a TT toy hauler and got caught up in 5th wheel mania (freakin' salesmen!) so we are going to go back to our original plan and re-look at those. I can't tank you guys enough for posting, you saved us from making a big mistake and putting my family in danger. I'm very disappointed in EVERY trailer salesman telling us the truck we wanted is PLENTY of truck. When we questioned them about the possibility of being overloaded, after I started getting your feedback, they told us that they send people down the road every day with big 5vers on 3/4 ton trucks. "As long as they have a diesel it's ok". Shame on the trailer and truck industry for publishing erroneous information that misleads you into this kind of situation.

Thanks again gentleman, our quest will continue!

Gods Country

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 06:28:47 AM »
Congrats on being an informed buyer.  There are very few fifth wheel/3/4 ton combo's I would be comfortable towing any great distance.

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2017, 07:29:17 AM »
Be proud of yourself 1fxstbi, you are one of the folks that actually listen.....some don't.  Many of us had to learn that lesson the hard way, and it can be painful AND expensive sometimes.  Keep us updated on what you decide and certainly don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need to.
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Dorian

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2017, 11:54:48 AM »
What I did (at a fairly large dealership) was ask for their towing expert before I bought my F-150.  He was an older gentleman that had been there for many years and was able to tell me all kinds of capacities off the top of his head from every engine and truck configuration, and even asked me several questions I didn't even know (GVWR, GCWR, axle weight, tongue weight etc).  He asked what I planned to tow, dry weight, length, hitch weight etc etc.  Sometime you just need to find the right person to talk to (usually the oldest guy there ;) )  One thing I learned that isn't very clear (at least with F-150's) is that if your hitch weight is over 500 lbs, or your trailer is over 5000 lbs, you WILL require a WD hitch, regardless of what the truck is able to tow.

keymastr

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2017, 04:47:21 PM »
Diesel engines weigh more and therefore some diesel trucks have even lower payloads. The door stickers tell the tale that brochures do not always tell.

grashley

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work?
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 07:41:32 PM »
Be proud of yourself 1fxstbi, you are one of the folks that actually listen.....some don't.  Many of us had to learn that lesson the hard way, and it can be painful AND expensive sometimes.  Keep us updated on what you decide and certainly don't hesitate to ask more questions if you need to.

VERY glad we could help!  Once you figure out how much money we saved you, just send out some checks!  ::)  8)  :D
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

 

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