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Author Topic: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?  (Read 500 times)

1fxstbi

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Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« on: September 03, 2017, 07:26:50 AM »
Ok guys, I need some help....AGAIN! Once more I can't get a straight answer out of anyone at the trailer places. I bought a Chevy 2500 Duramax short bed crew cab. My label inside my door reads 2,151 pounds, my manual shows 13,000 towing capacity and 1,500 pounds tongue weight. We just put money down on a Jayco Octane T30F TT toy hauler and WD hitch. Up to this point all we had was '17 literature and it shows a tongue weight of 1,165 (gross is about 12k so I figured that is a non-issue). When we placed our order we were given a 2018 brochure and we discovered that the 18 model tongue weight increased 200 pounds because they have put a fiberglass nose piece on it. I knew I would be close but we don't plan on using the TT unless we have our two HD baggers in the back and they would offset some of the tongue weight. I calculated that we would get about a 150 pound decrease in weight on the front so I thought we should be ok. Looking at the brochure there is some very small print that indicates that the tongue weight can change with options added to the trailer. We will be ordering it with 5.5 generator and second air handler so I think my new tongue weight could be out of limits. Am I missing something here, is there a tag somewhere that shows what the tongue weight is on the particular unit? The dealer keeps telling me it's fine but I just don't want overload the truck and have a problem. You guys have any thought and/or suggestions? I'm considering having the dealer contact the factory and verify or dispel my concerns but I'm getting very strong indications that they are the experts and I should stop asking questions.  Thanks in advance.

donn

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 07:40:14 AM »
Your "caalculations" so far are all guesses.  How much does the truck weigh loaded for a trip minus the trailer?  What is the trucks GVWR?  Subtract B from A.  That is how much weight capacity you have.  Does that number fit under or over 15% of your intended trailers GVWR?  That is your answer in simple terms.  Yea, I know , lots of people will argue tongue weight will be closer to 10 or 12%. Or that toy haulers get lighter tongue weights when loaded, but if you want to be on the safe side error on the side of caution instead of the other way.  Your choice, but since you asked, thats my two cents worth.

QZ

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 07:56:58 AM »
I seem to notice the opposite from people and they often say the the dealers lie all the time. I would believe a scale. I would believe you. I wont believe any dealer. I and others I talk to have had them say silly stuff like "You can tow anything on the our lot".  I have a one ton and I know full well that I cant do that. Some would need a dually and to me some would need a medium duty!  But then they are not the ones going down a mountain curve pucked up. Fill the tank and load everything in the truck that you would take then weigh and see the axle weights. See if there is a rig somewhere that you could actually pull to give you a idea.

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 08:18:25 AM »
Having the 1500 lbs tongue weight limit on the hitch rating might not be enough....it will be close more than likely.  As you already know, adding toys in the rear will definitely reduce your tongue weight, especially if you are carrying TWO bikes of the size/weight that you have.  Your payload capacity is almost identical to the F250 that I had (2148 lbs) and with a trailer tongue weight starting out at approx. 1400 lbs, (the new 2018 model you mentioned) before loading the bikes in the back, the tongue weight will be less than that amount.  Herein lies the problem with Toy Haulers.......more weight in the back reduces tongue weight.  Reduced tongue weight vs. Gross Trailer weight = not enough tongue weight and trailer sway.  Trust me, I've been there, done that, and experienced the lighter tongue weight and trailer sway.  When that happens, the only option is to add more tongue weight to get it up to at least 11.5-12% of the trailer GVWR.  12% on a 12K GVWR trailer is going to be 1440 lbs of tongue weight.  Depending on how much weight the bikes remove from the tongue weight, you might be trying to add at least a couple hundred pounds to the tongue.  In my case, which is almost identical to yours weight-wise, here is my progression on adding weight.

1st attempt:  removed single battery and box and added two 6volt batteries and box plus a 35lb barbell weight up front under the baggage slide.  That added approx. 125 lbs to the tongue weight.  Still not enough tongue weight and still had sway issues.  Everything was weighed at a CAT scale for the numbers....no guessing....slightly over 10% tongue weight.

2nd attempt:  Added water to the fresh water tank to completely fill it....106 gallons.  Because of the water tank location, that added approx. another 120 lbs of weight on the tongue.  Still had some sway issues, although not as bad.....but still noticeable.  NOW, based on the CAT scale weights, my F250 with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs is almost at it's max.  Part of the reason for this, and a big part, is that I have a 42 gallon aux. fuel tank in the bed of the truck which adds about 310 lbs, plus the tank and pump....another 125 lbs for a total of just under 450 lbs.  Of course this extra weight increases the total weight of the truck, and significantly reduced my payload capacity to the point that I didn't have any more "room" to keep adding weight to the tongue of the trailer without going over the truck GVWR......and that's with the trailer loaded exactly like it is when we travel with it.....bike, pit bike, tool chest, pop up canopy, fuel in the 30 gallon onboard tank.....everything.  So you can see that loading the rear of the trailer with lots of "stuff" will definitely affect the tongue weight of the trailer.....to the point that you may not have enough tongue weight and will have to add more to get to the 11.5-12% of the trailer GVWR.

In summary, it's going to be close for you on your weights....very close.  Your situation is almost identical to mine and I made the decision to buy a 1Ton truck to be able to handle the trailer comfortably.  A SWR would have more than worked for me, but I chose to buy a Dually (F350 Diesel) to have more than plenty of room for future upgrades if I desire to do that at some point.

Oh, I forgot to add the third attempt:  Once I traded trucks and got one that could more than handle adding weight to the front or tongue of the trailer, I added two 60 lb sand tubes to the front baggage area, which because of the close proximity to the front of the trailer, most of that weight was added to the tongue weight total.  I now have 11.5% of the trailer weight (12,500 lbs) as tongue weight and the trailer doesn't sway anymore.  Dually stability, enough tongue weight, and no more white knuckle driving! 
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:40:57 AM by xrated »
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Gods Country

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 09:00:58 AM »
The problem is the tongue weight you have been given is likely based on 10% of the dry weight.  The rosiest scenario for bating customers. For estimating you need to use the trailers max allowable weight and figure on 15%
to be reasonably safe.  I have never loaded a toy hauler, but to me it seems reasonable to assume that whatever the tongue is reduced by should be replaced to avoid problems.

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 09:14:17 AM »
The problem is the tongue weight you have been given is likely based on 10% of the dry weight.  The rosiest scenario for bating customers. For estimating you need to use the trailers max allowable weight and figure on 15%
to be reasonably safe.  I have never loaded a toy hauler, but to me it seems reasonable to assume that whatever the tongue is reduced by should be replaced to avoid problems.

You sir, are absolutely 100% correct!  When I bought my T.H. and towed it home, the advertised tongue weight was 1340 lbs.....and it towed home perfectly, zero issues!  When loaded however, that is when the trouble started, as outlined in my above post.  And let's face it, it's not like you can move your payloads in the trailer around to a different location.  I have to admit, I've never tried putting the motorcycles and tools in the front bedroom instead of the garage, but I'm thinking that would be a tough task to accomplish!   ;D
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Gods Country

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 09:17:30 AM »
You sir, are absolutely 100% correct!  When I bought my T.H. and towed it home, the advertised tongue weight was 1340 lbs.....and it towed home perfectly, zero issues!  When loaded however, that is when the trouble started, as outlined in my above post.  And let's face it, it's not like you can move your payloads in the trailer around to a different location.  I have to admit, I've never tried putting the motorcycles and tools in the front bedroom instead of the garage, but I'm thinking that would be a tough task to accomplish!   ;D

Then just move your bedroom to the garage......problem solved. ;D

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 09:41:59 AM »
Then just move your bedroom to the garage......problem solved. ;D

I love simple solutions and don't know why I didn't think of that!  Thanks man, headed out to move it now!   8)
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

RVRAC

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 08:31:43 PM »
You need a different truck.
2017 Leprechaun 311 FS
Toad: 2016 Jeep Patriot
American Dolly
Home: WI
Snowbird 6 months/yr.

grashley

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 08:36:28 PM »
OK, here is my take:

Your max payload is 2150#, a very good, accurate starting point.  I was unable to connect to the Jayco site, but your dry wt, before options is about 8200#, so a GVWR of 12,000# sounds reasonable.  We will start from here.

Note the 13K max tow is NOT for your truck.  It is for one like yours with Max tow package, base trim level and no options, no cargo and only 300# of passengers.  Likewise, the literature tongue wt is useless.

The REAL tongue wt will be 10% - 12% of the LOADED TH weight.  Assuming 12K, that is 1200# - 1440#.  You need at least 10% hitch wt for good towing manners.  You will be close to the 1500# max hitch wt, but with a bit of care, you should be fine.  Note this 12K weight includes all of those options and their weight, as well as all of the toys and camping stuff.  This 12K is the estimated weight or GVWR, or max weight of the loaded camper.

The second measure is staying under max payload.  The TH will place 1200# - 1400# on the truck.  That leaves 750# or more for WD hitch, passengers, tools, firewood and other cargo in the truck.  Again, you should be fine with a bit of care.

By definition, truck GVWR - actual wt = payload.  As such, if the weight in and on the truck is 2150# or less, you meet GVWR limits.

As others have said, TH weights and hitch weights are a bit different than other TT.  If the tongue is light, move the canned goods, pots and pans and other heavy kitchen items to the bedroom.  If tongue is heavy, move those things to the garage.

You have clearly shown due diligence in your research.  You are near capacity, but not over!  The diligence you have shown will be used to load the TH and truck carefully to assure you remain within your limits.

Go enjoy the Great Outdoors!
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

1fxstbi

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 08:53:31 PM »
Thanks everyone, you guys never cease to amaze me! The wealth of detailed information you share and the depth of experience is a benefit to us all. This particular trailer does have a 16' garage so I would have the ability to load the bikes in tandem allowing some latitude in weight shifting. When we get it I think it will be worth while going to a scale and setting up some different load scenarios, moving bikes around and recording tongue weights. Thank you all very much for taking the time to share your stories and valuable information!

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 09:23:52 PM »
You're welcome!  I would like nothing more than to see it work for you.  As I stated, I've been there, done that, didn't get the shirt!  It was dis-heartening to me at first to have to buy a new/different truck, and certainly NOT something I had originally planned on doing.....especially with having just bought the trailer last fall.  So I sincerely say, I hope you can get it to work for you....and it sounds like it very well could happen, with load management/distribution done correctly.
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Ernie n Tara

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 07:35:23 AM »
Check the water tank location. It could be used to "move the load" if its in the right place (about eight lbs per gallon).

Ernie
Ernie 'n Tara

2011 Winn Journey 34y
2012 Jeep Rubicon - Dozer (orange - kinda)
2006 Jeep Wrangler

xrated

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 08:36:18 AM »
Check the water tank location. It could be used to "move the load" if its in the right place (about eight lbs per gallon).

Ernie

Seems like I mentioned that in post #3!   ;D
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

steveblonde

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 08:38:38 AM »
Its very doable with a little creativity - i would suggest your first attempt at scaling be with a full water load as the tank on toy haulers are usually hidden by belly underclading, and with BOTH bikes in the trailer moved as far forward as possible which is going to put most of the weight over the axles. The genny has a weight of about 300lbs i believe but im not sure where they put it on your trailer front or rear.
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually loaded (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5200lbs cargo/weight capacity named Kong


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh?

grashley

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Re: Will this truck and trailer work, part duex?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2017, 05:48:23 PM »
Here is an interesting way to measure tongue wt at home, as well as other options.

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-determine-trailer-tongue-weight.aspx
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

 

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