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Author Topic: What is a fair ccc for 4 people  (Read 800 times)

KandT

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What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« on: October 12, 2017, 02:56:07 AM »
I am looking at a used dp and feel pretty confident I am going to buy it.  I couldn't stay off the internet and noticed the following year the manufacturer really bumped up the gvwr for the same model.  This rig has about a 100 gallon freshwater tank.  The owner seemed not to understand my ccc questions which could have scared me off except lots of RV owners (not on a forum) buy them and know nothing about them.

I am super sensitive to this topic because my last class c was overloaded when I put a t shirt in the nightstand.   ;) 

What is a fair ccc with someone pulling my toad?

 I figure 2500 pounds should do it???
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

Larry N.

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 07:49:09 AM »
Quote
I figure 2500 pounds should do it???

I wouldn't go with any less, and a bit more would be nice. Of course it depends a lot on what you decide to take, but 800 lbs of water and (at 150 lbs/each avg) 600 lbs of people eats into that a lot. It's easy to overload even 3,000 lbs if you aren't careful. But pay attention, also, to the loading headroom on each axle -- you might be OK on total but have an overloaded axle.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
2016 Newmar Ventana 3709 -ISB6.7 XT 360HP
2015 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited toad
Formerly: Trailmanor 2720SL
  de N8GGG

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 04:26:07 PM »
Sorry to nitpick, but are we talking CCC or OCCC, cause the differences is substantial.  A 2500 lb CCC is generous, but a 2500 lb OCCC is maybe not so much Look up CCC in the RVForum Glossary and both terms are explained. Or this prior discussion:
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=26115.0

Basically OCCC has to cover everything you put in the coach, whereas CCC is gear-only. CCC excludes people and water and counts those separately, and that's a lot of potential weight.  The rest of the answer deals with what you like to bring with you. I know guys who think they can't move without 500 lbs of tools.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

maddog348

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 05:47:06 PM »
Notice on BR closet door reads 853# CCC. That was before the awnings were added 2007 Sunova 27' Class A.  Wish there was a standard. Always over weight.
Pam (a.k.a.-Maddog  (driver))
Kate (a.k.a.-One Eyed Old Lady {nagivator))
 
2 furry copilots ('Charlie' 15# Terrier/X &  'Bella' 10# Min.Schnauzer/X'

2007 Itasca 'Sunova' 26P ~ 2003 Rav4 'toad'(remco tranny pump)

Isaac-1

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2017, 06:03:32 PM »
It is my understanding that OCCC is a federal standard which was implemented around 2008 -2009, vs CCC which was the prior industry standard, and measure different ways.  With CCC assuming full tanks (water, fuel, propane), plus a passenger for each sleeping position at 150 pounds vs OCCC which assumes empty water tank, and passenger weight being counted as part of the cargo weight.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

RedandSilver

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 03:43:08 PM »
I am looking at a used dp and feel pretty confident I am going to buy it.  I couldn't stay off the internet and noticed the following year the manufacturer really bumped up the gvwr for the same model.  This rig has about a 100 gallon freshwater tank.  The owner seemed not to understand my ccc questions which could have scared me off except lots of RV owners (not on a forum) buy them and know nothing about them.

I am super sensitive to this topic because my last class c was overloaded when I put a t shirt in the nightstand.   ;) 

What is a fair ccc with someone pulling my toad?

 I figure 2500 pounds should do it???

Can you tell WHAT DP your looking at?
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp

KandT

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 04:08:52 PM »
Can you tell WHAT DP your looking at?

Sure it a 2005 Winnebago Vectra.  In 2006 they upped the gvwc significantly.
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 04:20:08 PM »
OK, if you are reading the actual CCC value posted on the RVIA weight sheet on a 2005 coach, 2500 is dandy. That's 2500 in addition to full water tanks and some number of people onboard (SCWR is x people @ 154 lbs/person). That's about 3800-4000 lbs total with water and people, i.e. the OCCC rating would be around 4000 lbs.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

KandT

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 05:38:36 PM »
OK, if you are reading the actual CCC value posted on the RVIA weight sheet on a 2005 coach, 2500 is dandy. That's 2500 in addition to full water tanks and some number of people onboard (SCWR is x people @ 154 lbs/person). That's about 3800-4000 lbs total with water and people, i.e. the OCCC rating would be around 4000 lbs.

Sorry Gary - I did not express myself well and by the way I have since bought it with the thought that Winnie wouldn't mess up thier flagship (in 2005).

Here are the numbers

GVWR - 29,410
UVW - 26,602
SCWR - 770
CCC - 1026 ( kinda light huh?)
GCWR - 39,410
Factory Installed Options - 587

So what is my REAL ccc?  It can carry 109 gallons of h2o including water heater.

Thanks so much!!!!
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

richardhufford

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 06:17:55 PM »
I have virtually no RV experience, so someone should either back me up or disagree here, but it seems to me that if you have the coach, you should weigh it and then work back from the GVWR to see how much weight you can carry.  You know who you're carrying and what you're packing a lot better than any RV builder knows.  Be sure to get individual weights for the axles and, if possible each wheel, so you know where you can put the weight.  Your toad isn't really part of the GVWR calculation (well, there's the tongue weight if you're using a dolly or trailer), so you need to look at the capabilities of your hitch and drive train for that.
San Jose, AZ
1991 Thor Establishment M275
1959 Willys Station Wagon

Isaac-1

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 09:33:04 PM »
Yeah, seems a bit low on CCC, my 28 ft Safari Trek has a GVWR of 17,000 pounds, carries 86 gallons of water and still has a CCC of 2,051 pounds, of course in my case the SCWR is for only 2 people at 308 pounds, so you get a bit of that back if there are fewer people traveling.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 08:56:18 AM »
Well, the "real CCC" is exactly as stated, i.e. it is exact per the definition of CCC. But that's probably not what you are asking. As Isaac-1 says, you can carry the difference between the actual weight and the GVWR.

Since Winnie was kind enough to weigh the factory installed options, the coach actually weighed UVW + options as it came from the factory. That's 26,602 + 587 = 27,189 lbs. That leaves 2221 for everything else (29,410-27,189= 2,221). That's has to cover water, propane, people and all the gear you put onboard. Yeah, rather skimpy. Given that there is always some propane and some water in the lines, heater, etc., you have about  2000 lbs available for you and your gear. Not awful, but not exactly generous either.  If you fill the water tank @ 8 lbs/gallon, the remainder for people and gear goes down substantially, tho about 1400 lbs. That ain't much.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

KandT

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 11:02:46 AM »
Yeah - I am a little disappointed but I think we can make it work.  It sure is a different animal than my last coach and Gary I totally see what you mean when you say the class Aís over 26,000 pounds are a different animal all together in terms of Chassis etc.  We wonít ever haul 109 gallons of water so that could leave closer to 1600 pounds but we will tow which will take a few hundred off.  Surely my family can take less than a thousand pounds of stuff.  No use in taking more than small tools because of it breaks I donít have the skills to fix it on this guy anyway.  I will max out at a 3/4 inch wrench etc. 

Does it seem doable??
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

Sun2Retire

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2017, 11:30:32 AM »
We wonít ever haul 109 gallons of water


I have the luxury of having the capacity to do it, but I always carry full water. Rarely need it (unless dry camping of course) but on a trip earlier this year a water line broke in the campground - sure was nice to just turn on the water pump.
Scott
2005 Newmar Dutch Star 3810, Spartan, Cat C7 350
Eezrv TPMS, VMSpc, 800W Solar
2002 Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab
Stowmaster towbar & Brakemaster

garyb1st

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 11:36:35 AM »
... but it seems to me that if you have the coach, you should weigh it and then work back from the GVWR to see how much weight you can carry.

Totally agree.  If you haven't weighed your coach that's your starting point.  Weigh it empty.  Bear in mind, it will have some water, fuel and propane.  Or, fill the fuel tanks, diesel and propane, and weigh it.  Take that into consideration and then calculate what you can carry.  I wouldn't get hung up on definitions.  If you know what it weighs empty, just subtract that from the GVWR and you know what you can carry.  Unless you plan on dry camping a lot, you will not need 100 gallon of water.  Determine the minimum you need and add that in.  If you dry camp, fill the water tank when you get to your destination.  Don't forget your toad.  Your GCWR gives you an additional 10,000#.  Carry some of the heavier items in the trunk of your toad.  Don't overload the toad.  Some of the heavier stuff can go in the trunk without overloading it.  Unless you plan on buying another coach before replacing your toad, consider buying a crew cab truck with decent CCC if you replace your toad. 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

KandT

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 11:49:17 AM »
Thanks for the advice - this Vectra is a 2005 and has a whopping 15,000 miles on it.  I am going to change the fuel filters, oil, already put tires on it, the gauge says the air filter is good.  Anything else???  All five batts were just replaced.  I got Michelin XRV tires and had them inflate to the placard - really smooth ride - delighted with everything but the price. 

They talked me out of balancing the rears.  Any comments on that??  It has Aluminum outer rims on the duals so they didnít want to balance it with the stick on weights.  Suggested to just balance the fronts which I did and no drift or pulling.  I wondered about the bearings on an unbalanced wheel but I figured it is constantly taking a beating from potholes anyways.
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

RedandSilver

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2017, 12:49:24 PM »
We wonít ever haul 109 gallons of water

When I went to the FMCA International Convention they told us to arrive with empty tanks and FULL water.
Most everyone could hook up to electric (for a fee) but almost no one had water available to them.  There were dump stations to use upon exit.
So there are some cases where you may take 100 gallons of water with you.  Yes it might be rare but it even if you don't
take a full 100 it might be common for you to have 50 gallons on board most of the time.

What engine does your new to you coach have in it?

Do you have any maintenance records?  IF the transmission has never had the fluid changed it might be worth doing it if it's original fluid & filters.  Have you checked the water level in the batteries?
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp

KandT

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2017, 01:30:30 PM »
When I went to the FMCA International Convention they told us to arrive with empty tanks and FULL water.
Most everyone could hook up to electric (for a fee) but almost no one had water available to them.  There were dump stations to use upon exit.
So there are some cases where you may take 100 gallons of water with you.  Yes it might be rare but it even if you don't
take a full 100 it might be common for you to have 50 gallons on board most of the time.

What engine does your new to you coach have in it?

Do you have any maintenance records?  IF the transmission has never had the fluid changed it might be worth doing it if it's original fluid & filters.  Have you checked the water level in the batteries?


It has the 350hp caterpillar.  No maintenance records.  Batts are new so I am trying to check off worst to best - the oil needs changed and it seemed to lose some power after I added diesel driving it the 5 hours Home.  I am assuming it is the fuel filter(s). Also the water needs drained from the water seperator. That has some sediment in it. 
2005 Winnebago Vectra
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

Sun2Retire

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2017, 02:35:52 PM »
It has the 350hp caterpillar.  No maintenance records.  Batts are new so I am trying to check off worst to best - the oil needs changed and it seemed to lose some power after I added diesel driving it the 5 hours Home.  I am assuming it is the fuel filter(s). Also the water needs drained from the water seperator. That has some sediment in it. 

I also have the 350 Cat, but this applies to anything. I would suggest lab samples on the coolant, trans, engine oil and rear end so you have a baseline. I would then suggest another test of the oil and trans about 3000 miles after changing fluids. That will give you a pretty good feel for the the internal condition of the big ticket items. Definitely change the fuel filters and at least pull and inspect the air filter (at that point probably worth the money to replace unless it appears new). Pretty much every shop has told me the air filter vacuum indicators can't be relied on to indicate air filter condition.
Scott
2005 Newmar Dutch Star 3810, Spartan, Cat C7 350
Eezrv TPMS, VMSpc, 800W Solar
2002 Dodge RAM 1500 Quad Cab
Stowmaster towbar & Brakemaster

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2017, 03:39:50 PM »
We rarely traveled with less than 1/4 tank of water, and 1/2 was more common. Nice to know you have enough water for a couple days if "the worst" happens enroute. And a few times it has come in handy! Arrived at one RV park to find they had a broken water line and no water from their taps until the next day (or so)!

Balancing the rears is not a big deal, since the two wheels bolted together tend to even things out. I would have used Equal or similar just to be on the safe side, but no need to lose sleep over it.

Towing a dinghy has almost zero effect on car go capacity. There is no tongue weight to speak of with 4-down towing, and very little using a dolly. That's one factor you can ignore!

Replace any and all filters to establish a base timeline for future changes. Don't forget the tranny and genset. Age is a factor as well as miles, and a 13 year old coach with only 15k miles  has probably not had much done to it. Fluid analysis is also a good idea, again to establish a base line for the future.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 03:41:51 PM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Isaac-1

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2017, 10:55:46 PM »
It is amazing how quickly you can load a coach down with 1,500 pounds worth of stuff, the 10 pounds for a portable BBQ grill, 25 pounds for a pop up canopy, 20 pounds for a camping table, 4 bag chairs at 5 pounds each, .....all adds up. 
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: What is a fair ccc for 4 people
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2017, 09:50:43 AM »
Not to mention pots & pans, a case of beverages, some tools, etc. etc. etc.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

 

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