IFTA - International Fuel Tax Agreement

Does anyone have any detail on IFTA?

A friend, last weekend, was stopped at the Ag Inspection station at Yermo, CA on I-15 and fined $100 plus forced to pay for a 4 day permit.  This was all because his RV was registered to an LLC and, acording to the supervisor there, that made it a commercial vehicle and not an RV.  RVs are specifically exempt from the permits.

This is scaring the heck out of a lot of folks around here.  I hope it's just an abberation and not the norm.

Any ideas?

Al

I was talking to a guy in the campground the other day that told me they didn't warn him about some states might consider a vehicle registered to an LLC as a commercial vehicle.  According to him his insurance requires he be insured as a commercial vehicle.  I didn't ask but I would guess this may also be a requirement of either the state or something the insurance companies have come up with.

If an LLC owned RV is going to be treated as a commercial vehicle, then they may also be required to stop at the weigh stations.  Won't that be a mess.

Ned said:

If an LLC owned RV is going to be treated as a commercial vehicle, then they may also be required to stop at the weigh stations.  Won't that be a mess.

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Probably make a lot of working truckers angery waiting in a line of RV/s.

AlGriefer said:

Does anyone have any detail on IFTA?

A friend, last weekend, was stopped at the Ag Inspection station at Yermo, CA on I-15 and fined $100 plus forced to pay for a 4 day permit.  This was all because his RV was registered to an LLC and, acording to the supervisor there, that made it a commercial vehicle and not an RV.  RVs are specifically exempt from the permits.

This is scaring the heck out of a lot of folks around here.  I hope it's just an abberation and not the norm.

Any ideas?

Al

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Yeah, file the required permits under protest and ask about administrative appeals from the determination.   Was the LLC set up as a non-profit corporation?  If so, one should play that card and submit a claim to CA.

Moreover, pass the information on to motorhome organizations that might be willing to approach the matter in the interests of their memberships.   Escapees and FMCA spring to mind

AlGriefer said:

Does anyone have any detail on IFTA?

A friend, last weekend, was stopped at the Ag Inspection station at Yermo, CA on I-15 and fined $100 plus forced to pay for a 4 day permit.  This was all because his RV was registered to an LLC and, acording to the supervisor there, that made it a commercial vehicle and not an RV.  RVs are specifically exempt from the permits.

This is scaring the heck out of a lot of folks around here.  I hope it's just an abberation and not the norm.

Any ideas?

Al

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Not sure why the jump from subject IFTA to AG Inspection but here is IFTA info

International fuel tax agreement (IFTA)
IFTA is an agreement among all states (except Alaska and Hawaii) and Canadian provinces (except Northwestern Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon) to simplify the reporting of fuel used by motor carriers operating in more than one jurisdiction. Persons who operate qualified motor vehicles are subject to IFTA licensing.

Qualified motor vehicle - a motor vehicle used, designed, or maintained for transportation of persons or property and:

Having two axles and a gross vehicle weight or registered gross vehicle weight exceeding 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms; or
Having three or more axles regardless of weight; or
Is used in combination, when the weight of such combination exceeds 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms gross vehicle or registered gross vehicle weight. Qualified motor vehicle does not include recreational vehicles.
Recreational vehicle - vehicles such as motor homes, pickup trucks with attached campers, and buses when used exclusively for personal pleasure by an individual. In order to qualify as a recreational vehicle, the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor.

Upon application, the carrier’s base (home) jurisdiction will issue credentials that allow the IFTA licensee to travel in all IFTA member jurisdictions.

I found more info at the Board of Equalization web site here.

Al

The more I look at this, the more I think your friend got put upon by a badge heavy ag inspector.   I would appeal to the Board of Equalization.   Their web site says that full time operation of the vehicle for personal recreation is exempt.   It says nothing about form of ownership.

I just sent this thread to New Horizons RV Holdings in Montana for review and clarification when I receive something on it I will relate to the forum or post their answer.  I suspect it may be Tuesday before I hear anything, because they are moving their offices today to larger facility.  They may be requesting a Class A license  if it belongs to a Holding co, even non profit.  Who Knows what strange thing they come up with?  I also sent them the page Al asked about for clarification.  Hope we get an answer.

Carl L said:

The more I look at this, the more I think your friend got put upon by a badge heavy ag inspector.   I would appeal to the Board of Equalization.   Their web site says that full time operation of the vehicle for personal recreation is exempt.   It says nothing about form of ownership.

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Unfortunately, I had a long discussion with Nancy Fore, a supervisor in the Ca Board of Equalization, responsible for the IFTA process.  She confirmed that ANY out of state diesel RV over 26000 lbs gross owned by an LLC will be considered "for business purposes" and subject to the permitting process!  I asked her to confirm that with her superior and she called me back and confirmed it.

I then called FMCA and spoke with Jerry Yates who is in charge of legislative affairs.  I explained the problem to him and asked that the FMCA look into it and consider moving all their rallies out of CA.  He said that the FMCA Board was meeting next week and he would bring it up to the Board.

Everyone who is affected by this should contact all their RV organizations, CA chambers of Commerce, Tourism  Boards, etc.

Hopefully we can turn this around.

Al

Well I will be damned.  You are right raise a lot of hell over this one.   The last thing Califonia needs is to turn away tourists that want to spend money in our state. 

I suspect the Board of Equalization does not have a leg to stand on.  The California Vehicle Code is pretty clear:

260.  (a) A "commercial vehicle" is a motor vehicle of a type
required to be registered under this code used or maintained for the
transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit or
designed, used, or maintained primarily for the transportation of
property.
  (b) Passenger vehicles and house cars that are not used for the
transportation of persons for hire, compensation, or profit are not
commercial vehicles.   This subdivision shall not apply to Chapter 4
(commencing with Section 6700) of Division 3.    [my emphasis]

The last sentence in Sec. 260(b) refers to the need to register vehicles upon becoming employed in the state:

6700.  (a) Except as provided in Section 6700.2, the owner of any
vehicle of a type otherwise subject to registration under this code,
other than a commercial vehicle registered in a foreign jurisdiction,
may operate the vehicle in this state until gainful employment is
accepted in this state or until residency is established in this
state, whichever occurs first, if the vehicle displays valid license
plates and has a valid registration issued to the owner, and the
owner was a resident of that state at the time of issuance.
Application to register the vehicle shall be made within 20 days
after gainful employment is accepted in this state or residency is
established in this state.

The source of this is the online California Codes -- Vehicle Code.  The FCMA folks may want to use the citations in their discussions with the Board.

Unfortunately, the ploy they're using is not "commercial vehicle" as such, but rather "for business uses."  We've sorta used those interchangably, but they don't.  They say all LLC are businesses so that the RV is used for "business purposes."

Al

Can someone explain how all this relates to IFTA i.e. was the state fining and requiring a permit because it feels its not getting its proportionate share of fuel tax from the RV driving within CA as it would for a truck ? What was the permit permitting ????
??? ???

AlGriefer said:

Unfortunately, the ploy they're using is not "commercial vehicle" as such, but rather "for business uses."  We've sorta used those interchangably, but they don't.  They say all LLC are businesses so that the RV is used for "business purposes."

Al

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Got to disagree with that interpretation, Section 260 (b) pretty clearly specifies that motorhomes which are NOT used for hire, compensation, or profit are NOT commercial vehicles.  That certainly conflicts with the staff interpretations of the Board.  Last time I heard, legislation trumps regulation.

Anyway, pass the info on to your FMCA contact.   The Code reference can be found at http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html  under the Vehicle Code section.

Carl,

I think what Al is saying is that the BOE isn't saying it is a commercial vehicle. They are saying the "LLC" is a business and the "business" owns the RV therefore the "business" has to comply with the IFTA.

I think we need about three more Philadelphia lawyers on here to figure this one out.  ;D  ???  ;D

What is needed is a lobbying organization to put some pressure on the CA state government over this bit of CS on the part of Equalization.  Section 260 is a part of that pressure.

I'm not a lawyer but I can understand what to do.  Stay out of California!

Well, I've stirred up FMCA and posted on the Escapees forum.  I haven't found a good number to call them, yet.  If anyone wants to check for themselves, the person I talked to is Nancy Fore at the BOE, Fuel Taxes Division in Sacramento at 916-324-2663.

I also sent a note to the Governator!

Al

Diesel-Powered Vehicles Used in Interstate Commerce
You need a permit or license to operate a diesel-powered vehicle in California if the vehicle operates
both in California and in another state or country and
? Has two axles and a gross vehicle weight or registered gross vehicle weight exceeding
26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms, or
? Has three or more axles regardless of weight, or
? When used in combination (for example, a tractor-trailer combination), has a combined
weight exceeding 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms gross vehicle weight
You do not need a fuel permit or license to operate a diesel-powered vehicle driven solely in California.
Likewise, you do not need a fuel permit or license for a diesel-powered recreational vehicle,
such as a motor home or a pickup truck with a camper, if the vehicle is not used in connection with
a business operation.

The above was taken from the IFTA website. I think the key wording here is highlighted. Seems to me that loading an RV up with a product to sell and then selling out of it would constitute "a business operation", but merely driving and living (i.e., taking a vacation) in it does not.

Further contact info from one of their forms:

Taxpayers? Rights Advocate
If you have been unable to resolve a conflict with the Board or would like to know more about your rights
under the Revenue and Taxation Code, you should contact the Taxpayers? Rights Advocate Office. Call
888-324-2798 (fax: 916-323-3319), or write to: Taxpayers? Rights Advocate, MIC:70; State Board of Equalization;
P.O. Box 942879; Sacramento, CA 94279-0070.