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Author Topic: Towing limits exceeded?  (Read 804 times)

Barak

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Towing limits exceeded?
« on: October 25, 2017, 05:24:29 AM »
Hi. Hope someone can put things in perspective. Running into this dilemma of towing capacity vs tongue weights and trailer towed. My truck is 2012 Toyota Tundra 5.7L V8 4x4 with towing capacity of 9,700 lbs. tongue weight is 1,030 and class 4 hitch/receiver. Rear axle 4,150 front 4,000 and truck itself is 7,100 with 16,000 gross combined. Trailer is palomino solaire ultra super light 318tsbhk and is 35 ft long. Dry weight is 7,125 plus cargo and all. I estimate about 1,000 in extra cargo and stuff. I also use weight distribution with 14,000 max towing and 1,400 max tongue. My dilemma is if I have enough of truck for this trailer. Camping dealers think yes. I want to know if I am exceeding tongue weight and if so what does that really mean or does to the truck. Any other information needed or photos of anything, let me know. Thanks!

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 06:59:34 AM »
First- Camper dealers will tell folks their truck can pull anything on the lot just to make the sale. Some just flat out lie, and some really don't know the first thing about towing a trailer.


Truck-The infamous "yellow sticker" on the B pillar when you open the driver's door should have the payload for your particular truck on it. We need that number. Or load your truck with the passengers and stuff that you will be hauling when you are pulling the camper, and get a scale weight.

The GVWR for that trailer is 8890#. We generally go by that number in determining if a particular truck can safely pull it. The tongue weight should be 10 to 15% of the loaded weight of the trailer. Assuming fully loaded, that's 890 to 1335# of tongue weight. I know you said you figure on about a 1000# of gear, but are you positive about that? Before all is said and done, you will probably end up loading the trailer to the max.

Another issue is the length of the trailer. That's a lot of sail behind a half ton truck. I pulled a Salem Hemisphere 272RLIS behind a 2013 Ram 1500, using a well tweeked in Reese Dual Cam WDH, and had no issues, but your experience may be different. I had to limit my total trailer weight to about 8200#.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

muskoka guy

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 07:20:32 AM »
I have the same truck with a tow package. I think my tow capacity is 10400. I tow my boat which is a 24 ft cabin cruiser. It weighs around 7500 lbs. It pulls it fine, but sure sucks back the fuel when towing it. I dont think I would want to pull much more unless only for short trips. My brother in laws friend brought up a brand new  34 ft camper behind a dodge ram a few weeks back. It had the truck squatted pretty good. Looked like too much camper for a half ton. I also have another friend who pulls a new 32 ft behind a ford f150. They only go for short trips, but it also looks like they could use a bigger truck. If you only plan on short trips of a few hours, and can wait not to travel if it is too windy, you might be alright. If you plan on going cross country, I would suggest a smaller trailer or bigger truck.The number crunchers will be along shortly to give you the specifics. Happy camping.

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 07:56:17 AM »
Thanks all. This is very good information and discussion. The payload is 1,640 but there is also yellow sticker shows 7,078 and says that is the weight of truck since it had to be modified like they added running boards. I have been getting different answers by camping dealers and all and I agree 100-% that camper dealer will tell us anything just to purchase a trailer. However, I would say that no way I out more than 1000 lbs in cargo and all added to dry weight of trailer. I did weight trailer hitch weight as empty now and comes to about 210 lbs. My question is when measuring tongue do I go 10% or 15%? You probably have crew cab and they are able to tow little more vs double cab SR5 TRD Off Rd. I also contacted Toyota and they said not to exceed 10% of truckís tow weight on tongue weight. So for me it would be 970 lbs max to place on tongue weight. However I am confused with the rear axle and its weight of 4,150.

Joezeppy

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 08:08:46 AM »
I did weight trailer hitch weight as empty now and comes to about 210 lbs.
This seems very light - almost impossible, actually. With a dry weight of 7,125, I would expect a tongue weight of about 700 lbs. Most trailers have about a 10% tongue weight when empty.


I also contacted Toyota and they said not to exceed 10% of truckís tow weight on tongue weight.
I have never heard this before. Typically you want to shoot for AT LEAST 10% tongue weight to avoid trailer sway. Your truck's manual will have section on towing which should list the max tongue weight for both Weight Carrying and Weight Distributing hitches.
Joe & Kim
Upstate NY - Kuyahoora Valley
2010 GMC Sierra 2500HD - 6.0L
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kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 08:10:44 AM »
Where did the 1640# payload number come from?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 08:14:33 AM »
Trailer is now empty and I am measuring 210 for its hitch weight. See photo for payload.

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 08:25:01 AM »
That's brochure numbers on payload. The yellow sticker should give you the exact amount for your particular truck. Brochure numbers get folks into trouble.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 08:30:13 AM »
I see ok. The only yellow sticker I see on side of door as you open shows 7078 ad says something due to modification so I was thinking itís due to adding of running boards. Is that a number youíre referring to?

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 08:43:13 AM »
The sticker should look like this:

I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 08:55:09 AM »
Ohh that one. I am not near the truck now to obtain that but will as soon as ai am able to. So what will that number do for me and why it needs to be considered?

marcortez

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 09:02:09 AM »
Something is drastically wrong with such a light unloaded tongue weight.
How do you get to the universally accepted 10% minimum tongue weight?

Not to offend you in the least......but it concerns me greatly that some people tow a long trailer that loads up a half ton pickup to near max.
Unless I am seriously out of the loop on modern pickups, a half ton has smaller brakes, smaller suspension components, including a smaller spring pack and a smaller weight capacity axle......6 lug wheels vs 8 lugs......smaller radiator, less robust transmissions and even possibly (I am not sure) frame structure.

Sure enough, one can get a heavy trailer moving down the road, keep it moving down the road and do just fine.
Now you have to come to a stop....often a hard brake situation......bumps and ruts putting huge stress forces on the tow vehicle components and now the winds come up and you're faced with a long pull up a grade.

I have been (famous last words) through this before....with a half ton Ford F-150 pulling a trailer that is 6 feet shorter and 1500# lighter than yours.
Yes I made it to my destination ok.....several times actually.
It's just not a relaxing, easy drive.

After six months of jaunting around the mountain west, I traded the half ton for a 3/4 ton with a Cummins diesel.
Now it feels as if the truck is in control, rather than the trailer controlling the truck.

IMO, and it's not worth very much...I think you have too much trailer for a half ton truck.
 
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 CC 4x4 CTD
2017 Jayco Flight SLX Baja 245RLW

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 09:08:54 AM »
Where it says "combined weight of occupants and cargo should not exceed", that gives you your available payload as delivered from the factory. From that number, you must subtract the weight of the passengers, any cargo, the weight of the spray-in bedliner you installed, the junk, stuff you normally carry in the truck, wife's purse, etc. What is left over is the amount of available payload. Your tongue weight and the weight of the WDH cannot exceed this number.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 09:13:14 AM »
No worries, youíre not offending in any way. This is good information for me to consider while I am speculating if I need to upgrade to a 3/4 ton truck. My tundra has class 4 hitch which allows for at least 3,500 lbs tong weight if not even up to 5,000 lbs. Rear gear ratio is 4.30 with tow package tested just like any other brands. Owners manual says for conventional trailer the gross trailer weight should be distributed so that the tongue weight is 9-11%. And it says if using Wad system, which I am, that front axle is returned to same weight as before trailer connected. I am getting that, however the rear saggs about 2 inches down from original hight.

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 09:13:51 AM »
Sure definitely not to forget wifeís purse LoL this is awesome. Thanks all!

marcortez

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 09:18:18 AM »
No worries, youíre not offending in any way. This is good information for me to consider while I am speculating if I need to upgrade to a 3/4 ton truck. My tundra has class 4 hitch which allows for at least 3,500 lbs tong weight if not even up to 5,000 lbs. Rear gear ratio is 4.30 with tow package tested just like any other brands. Owners manual says for conventional trailer the gross trailer weight should be distributed so that the tongue weight is 9-11%. And it says if using Wad system, which I am, that front axle is returned to same weight as before trailer connected. I am getting that, however the rear saggs about 2 inches down from original hight.

Thank you......now could you talk to us about 210# unloaded tongue weight on the trailer?
How do you get to the accepted minimum of 10%?....which would be in the 700# range?
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 CC 4x4 CTD
2017 Jayco Flight SLX Baja 245RLW

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2017, 09:23:51 AM »
Toyota is saying not to exceed 10% on tongue. I used bathroom scale and tips from etrailer.com and was getting approximately 210 when empty. You have a point for sure and because it doesnít make sense to me thatís why I am soliciting help here and anyone with past experience LoL. Thanks!

marcortez

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2017, 09:37:28 AM »
Toyota is saying not to exceed 10% on tongue. I used bathroom scale and tips from etrailer.com and was getting approximately 210 when empty. You have a point for sure and because it doesnít make sense to me thatís why I am soliciting help here and anyone with past experience LoL. Thanks!

Now we're making progress.......a bathroom scale.

I think you should be confident that the manufacturer of your trailer is not going to make such a huge error, as to have the empty tongue weight bouncing around 200>#
So that leaves the means of weighing that tongue weight highly suspect.

There is a method of weighing the tongue weight at a CAT scale but I am unfamiliar on how to do this.
Or as an option, but it will cost you some clams to get one......a scale made specifically for tongue weights.

You seem concerned enough to be questioning the weight......so now go a step up and gain some peace of mind that the tongue weight is where it should be.
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 CC 4x4 CTD
2017 Jayco Flight SLX Baja 245RLW

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2017, 09:43:28 AM »
Lol. I am concerned because I want to figure this out to determine if I need to upgrade to 3-4 ton truck. As for bathroom scale, I used a digital one which could have thrown numbers off but got analog one and will measurw with that. I did see a tongue scale at etraer.com but I thought I would give it a try with bathroom first. I also thought solicitating thru here would hep me calculate the numbers before investing in etrailerís scale.

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 09:47:47 AM »
This is good information for me to consider while I am speculating if I need to upgrade to a 3/4 ton truck.

In the end, that is probably what I would end up recommending. And if spending the money, you may as well go a one-ton. Only costs a bit more than a 3/4. And be careful of a lot of the 3/4 ton trucks. Check that yellow sticker I have been talking about, and you will find some 3/4 tons severely lacking in the payload department. Those 3/4 and one ton trucks with diesels also have less available payload from the factory, as diesels weigh more than gas engines.
Remember, a tow vehicle not only has to be able pull a trailer, it has to carry the tongue weight or in the case of a fifth wheel, the pin weight.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 09:54:34 AM »
Thanks for that perspective. The dilemma is not only about towing and camping but normal use of truck like commuting to work in terms of gas. I do take 6-8 camping trips in a season and generally range from 1-1-1/2 hours away from home. I should also say that my TT tongue of 210 should be multipleed by 5 which gets mw to 1,050 and Toyota recommended 10% of 9,700 so I am over just on dry if I have to look at it this way.

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 10:09:51 AM »
The gas mileage is a dilemma. There is probably no real world difference between a 3/4 ton and a one ton. Unfortunately, there is a big difference between a half ton and the heavier trucks. With the 2015 F-250 6.2 gasser, I got about 14 mpg normal day to day use, and about 9-10 mpg towing about 9500# trailer.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2017, 10:12:54 AM »
Definitely. I was comparing Tundra with GMC sierra 2500HD for gas and I didnít think GMC was going to be any much over what I am getting with Tundra. Tundra is 13/17 and GMC would be about 12/16 so not much difference but towing and all that there is big difference. I like Sierras. Any feedback on those?

kdbgoat

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 10:38:00 AM »
No feedback from me. I haven't driven a newer GM trucks for quite a few years. There's nothing wrong with them, I just have no experience to pass along. As stated before, watch payload on the 3/4 ton trucks, especially on Rams. I have no problems with Ford, GM, or Ram. Check them all out, and get the one that meets your requirements and one your wife likes! ;D
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2017, 10:42:37 AM »
Lol here we go again, the wife aspect. Isnít it so true that we have to make sure wife likes it even though she is afraid to drive the truck. Yes, I will check payload yellow sticker on any others I consider, but as it stands, and if I did the scale correctly, I am over Toyotaís recommended tongue weight for trailer being as dry, would you agree or I still have to obtain yellow sticker numbers to confirm? Thanks again.

muskoka guy

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2017, 11:03:17 AM »
If planning on buying a bigger truck, consider a diesel. It would get as good or better mileage than your tundra. Towing it would be an even bigger difference. Gas trucks are fuel hogs when loaded and towing.

Alfa38User

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2017, 11:07:24 AM »
Run through the exercise anyway, if for no other reason than to just understand what you need, and what information to have in hand while shopping. This way you will not be influenced by the BS spouted by many of the sales people you will encounter.
Stu
Montrťal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

UTTransplant

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2017, 01:02:44 PM »
I knew someone with a Tundra that towed a toy hauler. Dealer said "No problem!" After they replaced the transmission for the second time, they sold the Tundra and bought a diesel 3/4 ton. It was their first trailer, and they didn't know any better.
Pam and Kevin plus Minou and Lily (the cats) plus Lexi (the grand-dog)
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RedandSilver

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2017, 01:36:23 PM »
If planning on buying a bigger truck, consider a diesel. It would get as good or better mileage than your tundra. Towing it would be an even bigger difference. Gas trucks are fuel hogs when loaded and towing.

Agreed x 100.

There is basically no such thing as too much truck.
Get at least a 2500 Diesel and it should be good even for when you upgrade the trailer you have now.
IF there is even a possibility of you someday getting a 5th Wheel trailer then look at the 3500 units as they are not too much more $$$.

If you get another gas unit you might have to also upgrade that truck again too - that gets expensive.

One more thing - I HAVE a tongue scale and the weight can change a whole lot from how you pack your trailer.
I can see a hundred or more pounds of difference just by moving things around in my trailer.
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp

grashley

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2017, 08:15:02 PM »
Welcome to the Forum!  Thanks for asking BEFORE purchase!!

Lots of very good advise above!

Tongue wt MUST BE AT LEAST 10% of actual hitch wt, regardless of what Toyota may say.  I had a utility trailer with too little hitch wt jump off the ball.  Chains kept it in control, but I had to change underwear.  Less than 10% and you get much more trailer sway and bouncing, and a white knuckle drive.

Payload capacity.  That chart is nice, but for a specific configuration, it includes NO OPTIONS.  Options add weight and reduce Payload.  They will advertise the highest number possible.  Basically they claim they can make a truck in that configuration with that payload.  They DO NOT say your truck will handle that payload.  CHECK THE YELLOW PLACARD which is specific to your truck.

Is your truck capable?  Get the CCC / Payload from the yellow placard.  Now add up the weight of all passengers, all cargo, firewood, tools in the truck, your wife's purse, the weight of your hitch (80#) and the hitch weight of the camper (1000#).  The load must be less than the carrying capacity.  It may compute okay, but you may not like the way it handles the camper.

New(er) truck.  All three, Chevy / GMC, Ford and Ram make quality trucks.  "drive all 3 and get the one your wife likes"  The biggest difference between a 250 / 2500 and a 350 / 3500 SRW is the payload capacity.  On a new truck with identical configuration, the difference is less than $1,000, but the payload will be nearly 1500# higher for the 1 ton.  The size of the two are virtually identical.  Available options are virtually identical.  Fuel mileage will be the same.  The 1 ton has a heavier spring pack.

Keep asking questions!!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Barak

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2017, 08:29:26 PM »
This is great feedback. Well I did just all that you just stated. Basically my now remeasured TT tongue weight of my completely empty TT is 825 (includes batteries and propane tanks). So after adding in all my camping chairs tables grill generators and everything else I need while camping plus food and clothes, I am estimating tongue to be about 1,100 or so. After adding in passengers and some firewood, I am sure that I am over the yellow sticker which says 1380. So what does it really mean when you exceed this number? What does WD system do, does it take weight off of tongue so I could land below this number?

RVRAC

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2017, 09:22:37 PM »
You need at least a 3/4 ton for a 35' trailer.  The WD helps with sway and moves some of the weight to the front axle.  I used to have a 2500HD Silverado.  It would work for you.
2017 Leprechaun 311 FS
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grashley

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  • Western KY for now.
Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2017, 05:59:03 PM »
The yellow sticker says your truck is not designed to carry more than 1380 pounds.  Period.  Past that, you risk overloading the suspension, possibly overloading frame components, exceeding braking capabilities, possibly overloading the tires, or axles.  In short, it is NOT suggested.  Will the truck self destruct if you are 10 pounds over?  Heavens NO!  100 pounds over - same answer. 100 pounds over is only 7% over.  500 pounds is a whopping 36% overweight.

The weight distribution hitch DOES NOT remove weight from the truck - or not very much.  As a rough estimate, if you have a 1000 lb hitch wt without a WD hitch, all of which is carried on the back bumper, it may add 1200 lb to the rear axle and take 200 lbs off the front axle (leverage).  A WD hitch will redistribute that weight, maybe add 600 lbs to the rear axle, 300 lbs to the front axle and 100 lbs back on the TT axle.  The truck still carries almost all the weight.

As RVRAC said, you need more truck.

Since this is your daily driver, a different Ĺ ton MAY meet your needs. 
Ford offers a Heavy Duty Payload package on the F150 which includes 3.73 rear end, heavier rear axle, heavier springs, aux transmission cooler and bigger tires.  With any truck (or car) more options add weight, which reduces Payload.  Likewise for bigger cabs.  Go with the smallest cab and fewest options you will feel comfortable with.  Add HD Payload pkg and see where you land.  Note, this may be very hard to find on a lot somewhere, and that makes it hard to see the yellow placard.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

John97031

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Re: Towing limits exceeded?
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 12:12:45 AM »
No worries, youíre not offending in any way. This is good information for me to consider while I am speculating if I need to upgrade to a 3/4 ton truck. My tundra has class 4 hitch which allows for at least 3,500 lbs tong weight if not even up to 5,000 lbs. Rear gear ratio is 4.30 with tow package tested just like any other brands. Owners manual says for conventional trailer the gross trailer weight should be distributed so that the tongue weight is 9-11%. And it says if using Wad system, which I am, that front axle is returned to same weight as before trailer connected. I am getting that, however the rear saggs about 2 inches down from original hight.

The rating for a class 4 hitch is what the HITCH can handle. That does not mean the vehicle can handle it. The yellow sticker that others have mentioned will give the maximum weight your vehicle can carry.  This includes stuff in the truck, passengers AND tongue weight. Tongue weight is 10 to 15 percent of the trailers weight. Less is a recipe for dissaster.

An example is my RAM 2500 diesel. It has 2000 lb load capacity ( passengers, cargo, and tongue weight). Gas versions of the same truck have a higher load rating because the gas versions are lighter allowing more load. But carrying it with a gas engine.
2017 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins 6.7L
2017 Jayco Jayflight 28BHBE

 

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