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Author Topic: Here we are again...more towing questions  (Read 448 times)

rvannie23

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Here we are again...more towing questions
« on: October 31, 2017, 04:52:16 PM »
Just looked at the stickers on the door jamb of my truck. GVWR is 10,000. it has a line that says "combined weight of cargo and passengers should never exceed 2270lbs" It also gives GAWR for the front and back at 5200 and 6200. Where is the towing capacity? Is 2270 the payload? I upgraded my tires which are rated for 3195 lbs each. I'm not sure where that fits here. 

I have never really looked at it before because the GVWR of my current camper is 7800, so when I went with the diesel I knew I would be fine. I am looking into 5th wheels now, lightweight ones, but I'm starting to think that isn't even an option at all. I'm a little stunned. Am I missing something obvious?
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

donn

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2017, 05:12:39 PM »
Towing capacity would be GVWR of your truck minus scaled ready to travel weight.
You say GVWR is 10,000.  Fifth wheel towing is all about load carrying capacity and has very little to do with towing capacity.  For instance a typical TT that scaled 10,000 pounds would only load your truck between 1000 and 1200 pounds distributed between the front and rear axles.  Whereas a 10,000 pound fiver will drop approx 2,000 pounds directly over the rear axle.  Sadly, there are not many fivers that will not overload a typical 2500 truck.  Especially when loaded with family and stuff.

rvannie23

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2017, 05:19:33 PM »
Towing capacity would be GVWR of your truck minus scaled ready to travel weight.
You say GVWR is 10,000.  Fifth wheel towing is all about load carrying capacity and has very little to do with towing capacity.  For instance a typical TT that scaled 10,000 pounds would only load your truck between 1000 and 1200 pounds distributed between the front and rear axles.  Whereas a 10,000 pound fiver will drop approx 2,000 pounds directly over the rear axle.  Sadly, there are not many fivers that will not overload a typical 2500 truck.  Especially when loaded with family and stuff.

I think this is what I am not understanding; the difference between pulling the TT and pulling the 5er with the difference in how it is oriented over the truck.

I found a cougar "half ton" that I like...although this entire process was so I could find a 5er with a washer/dryer hookup but just for reference:


Shipping Weight    8730
Carrying Capacity   1740
Hitch                           1670

I realize shipping weight is useless but thats what I could find on the website. So the hitch is what is sitting in my bed correct? meaning I would only have 600 available pounds left to use up between me, diesel, and stuff?  Or would the hitch weight come off the rear GAWR?
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

grashley

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 05:26:30 PM »
GVWR is the most the loaded truck can weigh.
2270 is from the yellow placard and is your Payload or CCC.

Your tire capacity of 6390 / pair exceeds axle capacity, so you are fine there, with a safety margin.

With a 7800# TT, your hitch wt will be around 800 - 900#.  Add 80# WD hitch, and you still have over 1200# remaining payload for passengers and other cargo.

You are great shape with your current TT.

For a FW, assuming 500# passengers and cargo, then 2270# - 500# - 200# FW hitch = 1570# max pin wt.  20% of 7850# is 1570#.
              assuming 400# passengers and cargo, then 2270# - 400# - 40# Andersen hitch = 1830#, or 20% of 9150#.

A SMALL  FW is certainly possible.

I think you have it figured out!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
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grashley

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 05:31:56 PM »
The camper GVWR is 8730 + 1740 = 10470.

The published pin wt is for an empty camper.

The real ready to camp pin wt will be around 2100#

You would add this to rawr, but that should not be a problem.  Exceeding Payload is the issue.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

rvannie23

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 05:33:44 PM »
GVWR is the most the loaded truck can weigh.
2270 is from the yellow placard and is your Payload or CCC.

Your tire capacity of 6390 / pair exceeds axle capacity, so you are fine there, with a safety margin.

With a 7800# TT, your hitch wt will be around 800 - 900#.  Add 80# WD hitch, and you still have over 1200# remaining payload for passengers and other cargo.

You are great shape with your current TT.

For a FW, assuming 500# passengers and cargo, then 2270# - 500# - 200# FW hitch = 1570# max pin wt.  20% of 7850# is 1570#.
              assuming 400# passengers and cargo, then 2270# - 400# - 40# Andersen hitch = 1830#, or 20% of 9150#.

A SMALL  FW is certainly possible.

I think you have it figured out!


Thank you. Saving for reference. Can we all just take a minute to marvel at the fact that they are advertising the Cougar 5ers as "half ton towable" and yet my 2500 barely makes the cut? That is insane.

Stay tuned for my next post seeking extreme lightweight 5ers with W/D hookups   :-\
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

massspike

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 06:04:54 PM »
Where is the towing capacity?

You need to find the GCWR of the truck. This is something that ideally should be on the label with the truck's GVWR (10,00) and Payload (2270) but no the DOT and manufacturers can't make life easy so it isn't and you have to figure out yours from the manufacturers web site. Then subtract 10,000 from that GCWR to get a conservative/safe GVWR for the trailer -- your towing capacity (this assumes you will be maxxing everything out so you have some room for a heavier trailer). Or you can try https://rv.campingworld.com/towguide (they seem to do this calculation for you)

But it sounds like you have an SD/HD truck so you should have lots of towing capacity -- >10,000lbs -- so then look at the Payload which unfortunately you are going to have issues getting a 5W pin weight under (you are in good shape for a big TT though).

xrated

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 07:15:00 PM »
RVannie23 wrote:
Quote
Stay tuned for my next post seeking extreme lightweight 5ers with W/D hookups       

Uh, as far as I know, there is no such animal.  W.D. is associated with a tow behind trailer and 5ver is associated with a 5th Wheel Hitch type trailer.  And as a bit of consolation, I pretty much went through the very same thing.  I had a F250 and came to realize that it only had 2148 lb of payload capacity.  My 34 1/2' Toy Hauler was simply too much for it and I ended up with an F350 and I chose a Dually instead of a SRW....for possible future use and stability.
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rvannie23

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 07:31:21 PM »
RVannie23 wrote:
Uh, as far as I know, there is no such animal.  W.D. is associated with a tow behind trailer and 5ver is associated with a 5th Wheel Hitch type trailer.  And as a bit of consolation, I pretty much went through the very same thing.  I had a F250 and came to realize that it only had 2148 lb of payload capacity.  My 34 1/2' Toy Hauler was simply too much for it and I ended up with an F350 and I chose a Dually instead of a SRW....for possible future use and stability.

Here W/D was for a washer dryer. Thatís really what has me wanting to upgrade and concerned about pin weights. There are definitely lightweight 5ers my truck can handle, but not with the coveted laundry ability.
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

grashley

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2017, 04:59:49 PM »
Annie,

According to the manufacturer, it is Ĺ ton towable for many Ĺ ton trucks - at least home from the dealership with no passengers!  The 8730# ship wt and 1670 pin wt. fall within tow limits for many lightly optioned pick up trucks.  It will look GREAT parked beside your house!  Now, if you load it up to the GVWR with gear and have 2 or 3 passengers in the truck and are 1500# overweight, that is YOUR fault, not theirs!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Lou Schneider

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2017, 05:38:58 PM »
Like Masspike said, the figure you're missing is the GCWR, Gross Combined Weight Rating for your truck. This is the most the truck and trailer together can weigh alltogether.

Next in line is the GVWR, Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, the most the truck can weigh, including cargo, passengers trailer hitch weight, etc.

After that are the individual GAWRs ... Gross Axle Weights for each axle.

I think this is what I am not understanding; the difference between pulling the TT and pulling the 5er with the difference in how it is oriented over the truck.

The 5th wheel hitch is directly over the truck's rear axle, so that's what will carry all of the trailer's pin weight.

On a bumper pull trailer, instead of the truck being nose up and tail down, the weight distributing bars on a equalizing hitch forces the truck back to a level posture.  Doing this compresses the front springs on the truck and transfers some of the weight forward to the front axle instead of the rear axle carrying all of the trailer's hitch weight.  The leverage also transfers some of the hitch weight back to the trailer axles.

The amount of weight that's transferred away from the truck's rear axle depends on how tightly you crank up the weight distributing bars, but for estimating purposes figure the rear axle of the truck will carry about 1/2 of the trailer's hitch weight and there will be about 1/3 - 1/2 of the hitch weight on the truck's front axle and about the same on the trailer axles.

Here's a link to the 2015 Chevrolet Silverado Towing Guide, in case you don't have it -

http://www.biggerschevy.com/towing-and-hauling-capacity/

The truck manufacturers don't make it easy to find the GCWR ... they'd rather publicize the inflated Tow Ratings that give them the most bragging rights.  But we can infer the GCWR from the information in the Towing Guide.

And no, it's not 29,000 lbs (truck Maximum GVWR + the Maximum Towing Capacity).

The 2500HD with the Duramax diesel has a stated towing capacity of 17,900 lbs.  The truck itself has a stated maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. and a payload of 3,501 lbs.

Subtracting the Payload from the truck's GVWR says the empty truck (including driver and fuel) weighs 6,499 lbs.  Since the Tow Rating is calculated using the Empty Truck Weight, adding this to the stated Tow Rating of 19,000 lbs infers the GCWR is 25,499 lbs.

Now comes the tricky part ... since you can't exceed the GCWR, the most trailer you can tow is 19,000 lbs with an empty truck, or 15,499 lbs with a truck weighing in at the maximum 10,000 lbs GVWR.

Your Maximum Trailer Weight will fall somewhere between those numbers, depending on how much cargo you carry in the truck.  Assuming, of course, you can distribute the load so the individual axle weights (GAWR) are not exceeded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'll be perfectly fine towing a 7800 lb. 5th wheel as long as you stay within the truck's rear axle GAWR.   :)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 06:40:02 PM by Lou Schneider »

rvannie23

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 08:29:00 PM »
Like Masspike said, the figure you're missing is the GCWR, Gross Combined Weight Rating for your truck. This is the most the truck and trailer together can weigh alltogether.

Next in line is the GVWR, Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, the most the truck can weigh, including cargo, passengers trailer hitch weight, etc.

After that are the individual GAWRs ... Gross Axle Weights for each axle.

The 5th wheel hitch is directly over the truck's rear axle, so that's what will carry all of the trailer's pin weight.

On a bumper pull trailer, instead of the truck being nose up and tail down, the weight distributing bars on a equalizing hitch forces the truck back to a level posture.  Doing this compresses the front springs on the truck and transfers some of the weight forward to the front axle instead of the rear axle carrying all of the trailer's hitch weight.  The leverage also transfers some of the hitch weight back to the trailer axles.

The amount of weight that's transferred away from the truck's rear axle depends on how tightly you crank up the weight distributing bars, but for estimating purposes figure the rear axle of the truck will carry about 1/2 of the trailer's hitch weight and there will be about 1/3 - 1/2 of the hitch weight on the truck's front axle and about the same on the trailer axles.

Here's a link to the 2015 Chevrolet Silverado Towing Guide, in case you don't have it -

http://www.biggerschevy.com/towing-and-hauling-capacity/

The truck manufacturers don't make it easy to find the GCWR ... they'd rather publicize the inflated Tow Ratings that give them the most bragging rights.  But we can infer the GCWR from the information in the Towing Guide.

And no, it's not 29,000 lbs (truck Maximum GVWR + the Maximum Towing Capacity).

The 2500HD with the Duramax diesel has a stated towing capacity of 17,900 lbs.  The truck itself has a stated maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. and a payload of 3,501 lbs.

Subtracting the Payload from the truck's GVWR says the empty truck (including driver and fuel) weighs 6,499 lbs.  Since the Tow Rating is calculated using the Empty Truck Weight, adding this to the stated Tow Rating of 19,000 lbs infers the GCWR is 25,499 lbs.

Now comes the tricky part ... since you can't exceed the GCWR, the most trailer you can tow is 19,000 lbs with an empty truck, or 15,499 lbs with a truck weighing in at the maximum 10,000 lbs GVWR.

Your Maximum Trailer Weight will fall somewhere between those numbers, depending on how much cargo you carry in the truck.  Assuming, of course, you can distribute the load so the individual axle weights (GAWR) are not exceeded.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'll be perfectly fine towing a 7800 lb. 5th wheel as long as you stay within the truck's rear axle GAWR.   :)

Thank you so much for going into this much detail! This really helps. What this is really saying is that this is not looking good for me based on what I am looking for. Such a shame because I feel like pulling a 5th wheel is safer than a 34 foot camper (which has the layout and washer/dryer I am looking for)

Should have gone with the 3500  :-\
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

massspike

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2017, 11:36:59 AM »
Why your truck's payload matters...


rvannie23

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2017, 07:44:43 PM »
WOW I mean thatís like a 40 ft RV and an F150. What is wrong with people ?
2014 Laredo 274rb TT
2015 Duramax
FL - MS - TX

RedandSilver

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2017, 09:20:10 PM »
Why your truck's payload matters...
The deal said "No Problem" your truck can handle it.
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp

RVRAC

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Re: Here we are again...more towing questions
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 11:17:35 PM »
2500HD is not good for a FW.  I know, I used to have one.  You need a 3500.  Sorry!
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