RV Park Wiring

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
NY_Dutch said:
I highly suggest consulting a licensed commercial electrical contractor for advice on the wiring upgrade requirements, permits and inspections needed, etc. The church may even have one among the members that would agree to help out. National, state, and local electrical codes have very specific RV park regulations that need to be met for insurance purposes, even if safety is not considered.

thanks! Already been done! He hasn't come back with anything that helps to answer my question as to why.
 
Brother Bear said:
Just for the record, electrical inspections are not required at our church camp. The only thing requiring a permit where we are is a new building . . . and even that does not have an electrical inspection. I have also argued an electrical inspector out of "his opinion" on a thing or two in the past.
Sounds like a liability issue for whoever does the work, unless they are licenced  and insured.
 
Happy Prospector said:
Put the wire down, tell the do-gooders thanks and hire a qualified electrical contractor.

No thank you! Some of those "qualified contractors" aren't as qualified as us "do gooders!" How does your comment answer my question anyway?
 
NY_Dutch said:
John, I don't think the government has taken over the NFPA yet...

The Inspectors are Government employees and though the NFPA has it's SUGGESTIONS, it is the local governments that choose what parts of those suggestions to enact as regulations and/or what to add to them.

This is why the line "Your millage may vary" applies to all codes, laws and regulations.
 
The si
Brother Bear said:
No thank you! Some of those "qualified contractors" aren't as qualified as us "do gooders!" How does your comment answer my question anyway?

The simple answer is because the National Fire Protection Association's standard #70, the National Electrical Code, says so. But here's a more detailed answer:

Grounding Essentials

Electrical system grounding has three distinct purposes: to cause the operation of overcurrent protection devices in the event of a fault condition; to provide zero reference for the building electrical system ; and to equalize potential differences in the system.

The National Electrical Code (NFPA 70) stipulates that grounding must occur at the building (premises wiring system) service entrance and at each separately derived source?in most cases, a transformer. At the service entrance, the ground and neutral are bonded together; then, the grounding conductor is taken from the neutral bus to ground rod(s), switchgear enclosure, building steel, an underground cold water pipe or other available electrodes (NEC 250.30, 250.52) .

Creating a neutral-to-ground bond at the service entrance creates a line-to-ground voltage reference for the electrical system. This zero reference establishes a convenient frame of reference for line-to-ground voltage measurements. The neutral-to-ground bond also creates an effective grounding system and minimizing the voltage to ground and can limit overvoltage stresses on conductors to electrical equipment. This allows for intended equipment performance by isolating potential fault.

Grounding at each separately derived system is also of benefit under a fault condition, because electrons emanating from a source?transformer, generator or inverters?will attempt to return to the source. Under a phase-to-ground fault condition, the current will travel back along the ground wire or ground path?such as conduits and equipment enclosures?to the source. The source will provide current on the phase conductor(s) to meet the requirements of the short, thus causing the overcurrent device to trip. The purpose of the ground wire in this case is to provide a low impedance path back to the source.

Note that the ground wire is not returning the current to ground. In this sense, "ground wire" is a bit of a misnomer. Many times, this is called an "equipment" or "safety" ground, the latter being the most appropriate term, because it is meant to provide personnel safety by isolating the fault in the system.

Grounding Points: Single or Multi?
 
John From Detroit said:
The Inspectors are Government employees and though the NFPA has it's SUGGESTIONS, it is the local governments that choose what parts of those suggestions to enact as regulations and/or what to add to them.

This is why the line "Your millage may vary" applies to all codes, laws and regulations.

By far, most localities adopt the NEC as written, and typically any changes simply tighten parts of the standards rather than making them less restrictive. Certainly most building/code enforcement inspectors are government employees, although many areas do require independent UL certified electrical inspections. I've wired many a structure where the job was held up waiting for the UL inspector well after the local building/code enforcement inspection was completed.
 
All correct comments above, especially the one about local interpretations of the NEC.  However, the NEC has a lot of provisions and sections that apply to certain types of installations.  Some those grant exceptions to the general rules, plus there are different requirements for "farm wiring" and other situations where power is distributed to multiple buildings/locations. That leaves a lot of room for local interpretation in something like a campground.

All that said, a single ground point and neutral-ground bond at the primary service entrance is always preferred, per the quote that Dutch cited. From what I remember of previous readings of the NEC, separate grounds are allowed only for specific situations where a common ground is not practical for some reason. As I recall, overhead wiring to a separate building was one of the exceptions, but it had to be coupled with some other conditions to be applicable. The rules and exceptions for distributed power are quite complex! I think I recall that there are even situations where both a local ground rod plus a ground return wire to the panel are required.

Maybe the better question here is for Brother Bear, and that is "why do you think grounding via a local ground rod is better than grounding at the service entrance?".  What do you expect to gain by using individual ground rods?  To my way of thinking, each ground rod is a potential failure point and also extra work, which could be significant if the ground is rocky or shale.  The wire connection to a ground rod is subject to corrosion and exposed to physical damage if adjacent to the site pedestal.  In my opinion, a buried wire with integral ground is a cleaner and more reliable solution to providing a safety ground.  I cannot think of a single reason why separate ground rods would be better than a common ground at the service entrance.
 
There may also be issues of ground loops being created if power is simultaneously provided to one site two two different power posts through an extension cord, etc.
 
Gary RV_Wizard said:
Maybe the better question here is for Brother Bear, and that is "why do you think grounding via a local ground rod is better than grounding at the service entrance?".  What do you expect to gain by using individual ground rods? 

It would seem to me that more opportunities exit for errant current to exit peacefully if there are individual paths rather than one singular one.

Without specifically looking, my guess is that our current hookups have individual ground rods in place. Therefore, there would not be a need to install these.
 
I can see your mind is made but I will try and explain it a little better. Electricity AWAYS wants to go back to the to the point of generation by the path of least resistance and a ground rod IS NOT that point. The reason a wired ground path is needed for fault current only is so that when a fault to happens it will not flow on the neutral wire causing a overload condition that can overheat it or a terminal causing the neutral to open causing even more problems. RV parks are notorious for unbalanced loads because the mixture of 50, 30 and 20 amp rec, all unbalanced load will flow on the neutral, if you have 10 30 amp rv rec pulling 30 amp on  one leg you will have 300 amps flowing on the neutral and 300 amps on that leg that's also why a full size neutral is required in a rv park. When you wire all the pedestals reverse the line leads on every other pedestal to help with unbalanced load.

Denny
 
You will want to hire an electrician to do the upgrade. They will get permits and have an electrical inspection by your local jurisdiction to prove all work was done to code in case tragedy strikes your campers.

Unless one of your parishioners can fulfill the above your church is setting itself up for a HUGE liability.
 
Brother Bear said:
It would seem to me that more opportunities exist for errant current to exit peacefully if there are individual paths rather than one singular one.

In a nutshell, that explains exactly why isolated grounds are so dangerous. The voltage potential between those "exit points" can be lethal.

I think we're done here.
 
NCSU Dad said:
You will want to hire an electrician to do the upgrade. They will get permits and have an electrical inspection by your local jurisdiction to prove all work was done to code in case tragedy strikes your campers.

Unless one of your parishioners can fulfill the above your church is setting itself up for a HUGE liability.

This topic has came up above, however Brother Bear has stated this is at a location where there is no requirement of inspection, these types of places still exist.  Where I live we only have electrical inspectors inside the city limits, outside the city limits it is still anything goes, no permit required, and no inspector exists.  This is the situation as even though the state legislature mandated all places in the state have an electrical inspector about 10-12 years ago, they have yet to fund the mandate so it is still rather hit or miss, and tends to only exist in the more populated areas.
 
Brother Bear said:
Just for the record, electrical inspections are not required at our church camp. The only thing requiring a permit where we are is a new building . . . and even that does not have an electrical inspection. I have also argued an electrical inspector out of "his opinion" on a thing or two in the past.
Just out of curiosity, what qualifies your church camp exempt from an electrical permit and inspection?
Up north, there is no way this would be exempt (unless property and facilities were owned by Federal Government). As you're saying it is owned by the church, it would be considered just another construction job to be inspected.
 
NY_Dutch said:
By far, most localities adopt the NEC as written, and typically any changes simply tighten parts of the standards rather than making them less restrictive. Certainly most building/code enforcement inspectors are government employees, although many areas do require independent UL certified electrical inspections. I've wired many a structure where the job was held up waiting for the UL inspector well after the local building/code enforcement inspection was completed.

It's illegal for a municipality to require you to use Underwriters Laboratory.

I spent years as an electrical contractor. I pulled many permits in my life.

U/L is a private entity,  and therefor requiring U/L violates the antitrust business laws....it would be the same as requiring you to install only G/E light bulbs. They can require you to use a certified electrical testing lab, but not U/L only.

And the NEC is just like the Bible ...it has different meanings to different inspectors.

The Good thing about working on a church is...you don't need permits. 
 
TonyDtorch said:
It's illegal for a municipality to require you to use Underwriters Laboratory.

I spent years as an electrical contractor. I pulled many permits in my life.

U/L is a private entity,  and therefor requiring U/L violates the antitrust business laws....it would be the same as requiring you to install only G/E light bulbs. They can require you to use a certified electrical testing lab, but not U/L only.

And the NEC is just like the Bible ...it has different meanings to different inspectors.

The Good thing about working on a church is...you don't need permits. 

The municipalities may not specify UL inspections, but some power companies do before they'll connect to their lines. Municipalities may not be requiring U/L specifically, but many absolutely do specify inspections by certified labs as you know, especially for commercial installations serving the public. With U/L often being the only readily available resource for those inspections.

I'm not so sure that not requiring permits is necessarily a good thing. In the OP's case,  I really hope the church has their liability insurance up to date...
 
NY_Dutch said:
  I really hope the church has their liability insurance up to date...

Their insurance policy is likely underwritten by a 'Higher Authority'.  :)
 
Just dont get the electrician who keeps hooking up 240 v to those 30 amp plugs.
 
    I'm sure it is true in some area that churches may not require permits but I have done a boatload of inspections on churches and rejected inspections on some. I have seen first hand the work done by some of the parishioners much of it not so good and some of it excellent. I think if you look back thru the answers already given you will find the reason for using 4 wires.
   
 
Back
Top Bottom