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Author Topic: Trading tt for fifth wheel  (Read 1274 times)

The2DLTs

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Trading tt for fifth wheel
« on: December 12, 2017, 02:42:55 PM »
We sre thinkin about trading our 20 ft tt for a 5th wheel for retirement in the next year or so. We want to keep our truck we use now ,but not sure about pull weight ,its all very confusing.its just the two of us,and we want to keep it 34ft or less .
Our truck is a 2006 dodge ram 3500,4x4,short box,5.9  i6,quad cab.srw..diesel
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 03:14:38 PM by The2DLTs »

donn

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 03:06:11 PM »
Your 3500SRW should be good for any fiver with a GVWR up to around 12,000 pounds.   As you will soon learn with a fifth wheel it is not really about towing capacity, rather it is all about weight capacity.  Any fiver worth its salt is going to drop approx 20% of its loaded ready to travel weight directly over the rear axle.  So first things first. Load up the truck like your going camping and drive across the scales.  Be sure to get front and rear axle weights.  Now look up your trucks RAWR.  Subtract one from the other and subtract another 150 pounds for the hitch.  Now you have how much you can carry before exceeding the RAWR.  You will find towing a fiver is much more enjoyable that a TT.   It is also different, so be prepared for a learning curve.

Gizmo

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 03:12:46 PM »
With the truck you have and the size 5th wheel you are considering, you have a lot of options for 5th wheels.  Having said that to be safe, find the tow capacity and payload of your truck, which will be located either on the drivers side door pillar or some have a label in the glove box.  Once armed with that info you can find a 5th wheel your truck can safely tow.  When looking at various models concern your self only with the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the 5th wheel and not the dry rating which is meaningless since you wont be traveling empty.  TH GVWR is the weight of the trailer plus whatever the allowable additional weight for accessories, equipment and your personal gear.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
2017 Eagle Cap 1165 Truck Camper With Tork Lift Fast Gun Tie Downs & T.L. Wobble Stoppers
2015 Ram Big Horn 3500 CC Cummins TD Dually 3:73 Gears & AISIN Tranny
Gone But not forgotten:
2014 Northwoods Snow River 246RKS &
2013 Aliner Expedition

The2DLTs

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2017, 03:18:50 PM »
Thank you.that was a big  help,and i think i even understand  most of it. 😄now the fun of looking

Gizmo

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 03:51:39 PM »
Thank you.that was a big  help,and i think i even understand  most of it. 😄now the fun of looking

Best of luck in your search.  When the big day arrives, please share some photos.
Regards, Bruce, Lin An, Kenji & Suki
2017 Eagle Cap 1165 Truck Camper With Tork Lift Fast Gun Tie Downs & T.L. Wobble Stoppers
2015 Ram Big Horn 3500 CC Cummins TD Dually 3:73 Gears & AISIN Tranny
Gone But not forgotten:
2014 Northwoods Snow River 246RKS &
2013 Aliner Expedition

grashley

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 05:49:20 PM »
For more specifics, look at the driver door latch post for the yellow top placard.  IT MAY NOT HAVE ONE!  Starting in 2009, they were required.  In 2006, they were optional.

Regardless, Donn gave good advise that gets around several other questions about weights.  There should be a white tire placard that includes axle weight ratings and vehicle GVWR.  It is usually on or near the driver door.
With the two axle weights, add them together for the actual truck weight. 
REMAINING PAYLOAD =  GVWR  - Actual truck wt.  This already includes everything in the truck when it was weighed.  The weight go the FW pin and hitch, and anything ELSE added to the truck can not exceed this weight.
As Donn said, also subtract the scaled rear axle weight from the rear axle WR.  The FW pin and hitch can not exceed this weight.

I believe you will be fine, but please get it weighed.

One other point of concern to me is the short bed.  Not 6.5 ft regular bed, but the 5.9 short bed. (to remind others, not you)  A slider hitch will likely be needed to keep the cab unwrinkled.
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Coopster8

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 07:35:05 PM »
The best thing i found to help me with towing capacity.. helped me find the right truck for my new 5th wheel..
https://rv.campingworld.com/towguide

Lou Schneider

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 07:55:21 PM »

There should be a white tire placard that includes axle weight ratings and vehicle GVWR.  It is usually on or near the driver door.
With the two axle weights, add them together for the actual truck weight. 
REMAINING PAYLOAD =  GVWR  - Actual truck wt.


That's not correct.  The information on the white placard doesn't tell you what the truck weighs, only what it CAN weigh.  If it gives a Payload figure, that's distributed among both axles.  What you need for a 5th wheel trailer is the remaining weight capacity on the rear axle, as that's where the 5th wheel pin weight is carried.

The only way to tell how much pin weight you can carry is to load the truck with your usual camping gear and passengers and take it over a scale to get the actual rear axle weight, then compare that to the rear axle GAWR.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 09:16:57 PM by Lou Schneider »

QZ

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2017, 08:35:02 PM »
Your truck will be fine for many rigs as mentioned above but you may run into height issues and get involved with needing to level up.

spencerpj

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 07:51:00 AM »
You are smart.  Get educated on this.  Do NOT trust any salesperson to educate you.  You know you are dealing with a good salesperson when you've done your homework and they confirm your learned knowledge.  You know you need to move on, when you meet a salesperson saying whatever they feel needed to close a sale.

CWSWine

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2017, 07:53:29 AM »
That's not correct.  The information on the white placard doesn't tell you what the truck weighs, only what it CAN weigh.  If it gives a Payload figure, that's distributed among both axles.  What you need for a 5th wheel trailer is the remaining weight capacity on the rear axle, as that's where the 5th wheel pin weight is carried.

The only way to tell how much pin weight you can carry is to load the truck with your usual camping gear and passengers and take it over a scale to get the actual rear axle weight, then compare that to the rear axle GAWR.

So you saying use the axle weights not the GVWR to figure payload.  I know that they way the do it in the large trucks but they can also up the payload by JUST changing out the axles.  The GVWR is the axle ratings where his 350 the GVWR is less than the axle ratings. I spent some time and Fleetwood repair shop and saw them replacing a set of rear axles and legally raising the payload rating by 20,000 pounds and updating the payload info on the truck.  Try that with the F350 LOL....

Payload equals Front Axle Plus Rear Axles subtracted from GVWR of the truck.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:58:27 AM by CWSWine »
-Dennis
2017 Fleetwood Discovery LXE 40D Diesel Pusher 380HP 1150 Foot Pounds Torque 41.3 feet bath and half.
Toads - 2017 Jeep Sahara & 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee
sold 2017 GMC Denali 3500 Diesel CC 3744
sold 2017 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R
Sold 2016 - Montana 3711 Front Living Room

xrated

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 09:36:04 AM »
Truck payload is extremely simple.  Truck GVWR minus the actual weight of the truck the way it was equipped when it left the factory and with a full tank of fuel, and is displayed on a white/yellow sticker on the driver side door post.  Anything and everything that has been added to the truck since then, reduces the available payload that is stated on that sticker
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

Lou Schneider

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 12:17:22 PM »
So you saying use the axle weights not the GVWR to figure payload.  I know that they way the do it in the large trucks but they can also up the payload by JUST changing out the axles.  The GVWR is the axle ratings where his 350 the GVWR is less than the axle ratings. I spent some time and Fleetwood repair shop and saw them replacing a set of rear axles and legally raising the payload rating by 20,000 pounds and updating the payload info on the truck.  Try that with the F350 LOL....

Payload equals Front Axle Plus Rear Axles subtracted from GVWR of the truck.

The problem is the door sill placard doesn't tell how much weight the truck itself places on each axle, just the GAWRs.  GAWR = Gross Axle Weight Rating, i.e. the most weight the axle can carry.

The only way to find out how much payload is available on each axle is to run the truck across a scale and get the unloaded axle weights.  The truck should be configured as it will be on the road, with a 5th wheel platform and any passengers and cargo it will carry.

Once you have this information, you can subtract the truck weight from each axle's GAWR to find out how much additional weight each axle can carry.

The GVWR is most the entire truck can weigh when loaded, the problem is a 5th wheel hitch is directly above the truck's rear axle so all of the trailer's pin weight is carried there, not distributed between the front and rear axles.  Carrying cargo or towing a conventional trailer using a weight distributing hitch distributes the weight to both of the truck axles.  The rear axle's GAWR and the maximum pin weight it can carry will most likely be the limiting factor on how large of a 5th wheel you can tow, not the truck's overall GVWR.


« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 01:15:03 PM by Lou Schneider »

grashley

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
I stand by what I said!  I assumed the truck would be scaled, as Donn had said.

Get the GVWR and axle WR from the white placard.  STOP.
Take the weights obtained when the truck was scaled. STOP.

Remaining Payload = GVWR (from placard) minus Truck wt (from scale)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 06:01:46 PM by grashley »
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

CWSWine

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 11:10:59 AM »
The problem is the door sill placard doesn't tell how much weight the truck itself places on each axle, just the GAWRs.  GAWR = Gross Axle Weight Rating, i.e. the most weight the axle can carry.

The only way to find out how much payload is available on each axle is to run the truck across a scale and get the unloaded axle weights.  The truck should be configured as it will be on the road, with a 5th wheel platform and any passengers and cargo it will carry.

Once you have this information, you can subtract the truck weight from each axle's GAWR to find out how much additional weight each axle can carry.

The GVWR is most the entire truck can weigh when loaded, the problem is a 5th wheel hitch is directly above the truck's rear axle so all of the trailer's pin weight is carried there, not distributed between the front and rear axles.  Carrying cargo or towing a conventional trailer using a weight distributing hitch distributes the weight to both of the truck axles.  The rear axle's GAWR and the maximum pin weight it can carry will most likely be the limiting factor on how large of a 5th wheel you can tow, not the truck's overall GVWR.

I have had a several 5ers and have weight each one and I was well under my axle weights when I exceeded my GVWR.  Here is my last weight of 35 foot 5er and you see my rear axle rating is 7,000 pounds and my CAT scale weight is 6320 and I'm within 180 pounds of my GVWR....  I would like to see a CAT scale ticket that exceeds the 7,000 lbs axle rates and not be way over the GVWR of the truck.  On every CAT scale ticket I have seen the GVWR was exceed long before the axle ratings.



Truck Specs

Ford F350 Diesel SuperCab 143” Wheel Base 6.5 foot bed.

B&W Campion Hitch non slider

Web Spec 4080 Payload

Yellow Door Sticker 3744

GVWR 11,500

Rear Axle Ratings 7,000

Front Axle Ratings 5,200

GCWR 22,500

Tow Rating 15,900

Truck ONLY Weight Cat Scales

Front Axle Weight - 4740

Rear Axle Weight - 3480

Total Weight 8220

Cat Scale With 5er Hooked up

Steering Axle - 5000lbs

Drive Axle 6320

Trailer Axle 10,520

Gross Combine Weight 21,840

Bottom Line

Truck Weight (Truck Only) 8220

Truck Weight (Hitched) 11,320

Camper Weight 13,620

Pin Weight 3,100

Pin Weight Percentage 22.8%

2392 Factory Pin Weight 3100 scale weight increase of 708 pounds

12,226 Factory UVW 13,600 Cat Scale Weight increase of 1374 lbs

Over 50% of the 1374 pounds loaded went to pin weight

Just goes to show how much weight is loaded forward of the axle

Factory Scale weighs of 2392 pin and 12,226 UVW = 19.6 percent pin weight

Cat Scale Weights 13600 GVW and 3100 pin = 22.8 percent pin percentage or increase of 3.2 Percent over Dry percentage

I’m within 180 pounds of my GVWR of my trucks 11,500 GVWR. We were loaded for a week long trip and we are not full timers.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:17:57 AM by CWSWine »
-Dennis
2017 Fleetwood Discovery LXE 40D Diesel Pusher 380HP 1150 Foot Pounds Torque 41.3 feet bath and half.
Toads - 2017 Jeep Sahara & 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee
sold 2017 GMC Denali 3500 Diesel CC 3744
sold 2017 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R
Sold 2016 - Montana 3711 Front Living Room

The2DLTs

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 02:20:46 PM »
Got these off the door jams.does this help






2006 dodge ram,3500.srw,sb

xrated

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 04:06:03 PM »
Those numbers change things considerably.  That is approx. the number of a modern 3/4 Ton truck from any of the big three.  9900 lb GVWR and 2858 payload.  Your axle weight rating are similar to a lot of the modern 3/4T trucks also.  Depending on the size of your 5ver, you may be stretching things a bit.  Remember, a pin weight of a 5ver needs to be calculated using 20% of the GVWR of the trailer.  An example of say 12K GVWR for the trailer is going to put approx. 2400 lbs of pin weight on your truck.....and the hitch another approx. 175 lbs.  Those numbers total equal almost 2600 lbs...so that leaves you with only 250 lbs for any additional payload......NOT very much.  And remember, this isn't a new truck, so anything and everything that was or has been added to the truck since it rolled off of the assembly line also has to be counted against that remaining 250 lb......truck bed tool box, aux. fuel tank, any kind of bed cover....you get the idea.  So, in my opinion, that truck is not going to be able to handle even a 12K GVWR trailer and have any leftover room for you and your family and whatever else you decide to take along.
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
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The2DLTs

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 07:08:21 PM »
Thats why we are confused on numbers,its a 1 ton truck. Maybe they put the wrong tags inside 🤔

xrated

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2017, 09:03:04 PM »
I'm sure there are others on this site that know a whole lot more about that possibility than I do, but to me, that would seem to be pretty unlikely.  From what little I know, it seems that a lot of the older trucks had payloads that seem rather meager when compared to a late model truck of the same tonnage rating.  I have a 2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually and the GVWR on that truck is 14K.  I'm guessing that the same truck, only a 2006, 2007, somewhere back in that era would have a somewhat lower GVWR.....but again, I'm not a truck expert, especially as this one is my first heavy duty truck, other than a 2011 F250 that I had previously.
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun

The2DLTs

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2017, 10:57:56 PM »
I think your probably right.given the age of the truck,we shouldnt be surprised at it being lower.

Alfa38User

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2017, 08:55:46 AM »
The GVWR of the TRUCK is not the important number but the load capacity (often called CCC) as shown on the yellow sticker is... The GVWR of the TRAILER is important to establish how much load that particular trailer can put on the truck when the 20-25% ratio (used by a fifth wheel trailer) is applied along with the other added loads in the truck like the hitch, the dog, the wife's purse etc. if trailer is loaded to its maximum. Using the VGWR of the trailer will provide a small cushion in most cases without having to know the exact weight of the trailers load.

Yes, these numbers are highly theoretical until there is an accident where a good investigator suggests that vehicle overloading may be the ultimate cause.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 09:09:00 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2017, 09:12:36 AM »
Quote
Thats why we are confused on numbers,its a 1 ton truck. Maybe they put the wrong tags inside

No mystery there. It's a one-ton class truck but the SRW (single rear wheels) limits the carrying capacity to only a modest bit more than a typical 3/4 ton class.  With just two tires on the rear axle, the rear GAWR is limited by the tire capability.  It's a classic case of a chain being no stronger than the weakest link, and in this case that is almost surely the tire/wheel load carrying capacity. RAM probably used a lesser capacity rear axle as well, since they know the whole package is going to be lower rated than a similar dually would be
Gary
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butch50

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2017, 12:19:54 PM »
I hate to tell you but there is no mistake with the sticker. I had a 2006 Ram 3500 4X4 SWB and the GVWR was 9900#. Newer 1 ton SWR trucks now have up to a 11500# GVWR. In 2006 DRW trucks had around a 11000 to 12000# GVWR or somewhere in that range. Now my 2017 Ram 3500 DRW has a GVWR of 14000#.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 12:21:48 PM by butch50 »
Butch

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CWSWine

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2017, 09:01:05 AM »
The GVWR of the TRUCK is not the important number but the load capacity (often called CCC) as shown on the yellow sticker is...

How can you say that?  The CCC on the yellow stickers is figured by taking the weight of the truck when it was leaving the factory and subtracting it from the GVWR of the truck.

-Dennis
2017 Fleetwood Discovery LXE 40D Diesel Pusher 380HP 1150 Foot Pounds Torque 41.3 feet bath and half.
Toads - 2017 Jeep Sahara & 2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee
sold 2017 GMC Denali 3500 Diesel CC 3744
sold 2017 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R
Sold 2016 - Montana 3711 Front Living Room

Alfa38User

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »
Yes, agreed! BUT, unless you want to make that calculation again or do it manually when you already have the CCC, the VGWR of the truck itself it becomes less important. Someone has already done the arithmetic for you.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 09:20:53 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

xrated

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Re: Trading tt for fifth wheel
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2017, 02:28:50 PM »
I can't believe this thread is still going.....talking about payload (CCC).  It's been explained, it's as clear as day, and the O.P. has been satisfied that he knows what he's got and how to check if needed! 
2016 F350 Crew Cab Dually King Ranch Diesel
2017 Keystone Fuzion Impact 303
Track Bike  2008 GSX-R750
"If it ain't Fast......It ain't Fun