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Author Topic: School at a price  (Read 1951 times)

Tom

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School at a price
« on: December 24, 2017, 07:52:48 PM »
In the olde country education system, we sat a national exam at the age of 11 (known as the 11-plus), and they drew a line on the results at 10%. Anyone who was over the line went to grammar school and was eligible to apply to university, while the remaining 90% were destined for "secondary school", with no opportunity to attend university.

First time around, I was below the line, but made it on the allowed second sitting (phew!).

Meanwhile, courtesy of Amazon Prime, I've been watching a documentary on Harrow, a "public" aka private school with huge $$$ fees. Students attend from all over the world.

Too bad that kids can't receive an education unless they're born into a $$$ wealthy family.

FWIW coming from a largely coal mining family, I was given a lump of coal as a "good luck" charm for my exam desk while sitting the second 11+ exam. I guess it worked.
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Rene T

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2017, 09:21:01 PM »
Did you keep it?
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Utclmjmpr

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2017, 10:28:39 PM »
We give a lump of coal for a different reason here.>>>D
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QZ

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2017, 10:36:58 PM »
I dont understand, I thought we are paying $$$$

Tom

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2017, 03:16:50 AM »
Quote from: QZ
I dont understand, I thought we are paying $$$$


I'm talking about $200K out of pocket for 4-5 years of elementary education in a country where the folks are already taxed much higher than here in the US. I never understood why they were called "public schools" when only a fraction of 1% of kids that age could attend.
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Tom

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2017, 03:18:14 AM »
Quote from: Rene T
Did you keep it?

The lump of coal went back in the coal shed, and ultimately on the fire, to help keep the house warm.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 08:37:27 AM by Tom »
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QZ

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2017, 06:23:13 AM »
Oh ok, got it.

Bill N

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2017, 06:55:36 AM »
Oh ok, got it.

 Tom - Ireland or Scotland or ?

From what I have heard I like Australia's system.  You attend through grade 10 and then either 'matriculate' - continue on to high school or take up an apprenticeship of some sort.  Our friend's son took the apprenticeship in 'body banging' (auto body repair) and eventually wound up working in that trade for a while and then moved on to become an electrician.  I have always wondered how we in the US came to believe that everyone needs a college degree (at great expense)?  I have a MBA degree in Industrial Management from Ohio State but was once told when I applied for a job late in my working life that my degree was too old to be of value; however, they said my practical experience in hands on jobs more than qualified me.  Strange huh?

Merry Christmas to all.

Bill
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2017, 07:10:38 AM »
Quote
I have always wondered how we in the US came to believe that everyone needs a college degree (at great expense)?

Me too. Somehow there came to be a stigma attached if one did not go to college or chose to learn a trade instead of obtaining a degree in Underwater Basket Weaving or Videography.  America has de-valued the concept of manual labor.
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John From Detroit

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2017, 08:06:17 AM »
This is something. I rercall when I went to college, I had to borrow for one semester.. less than $300. Today college costs thousands of dollars (many thousands) per semester. (though in truth a year ofr Catholic School (high) cost more for my  daughter than her first semester of College, but then she got half off via scholarship for tooting her flute, which she does VERY well).

And what is worse is the new "Tax Law" Trump just signed.   Student loan forgivness, Gone, Tax deduction for interest on the loan, Gone, and cost of education, Increased.   But in truth, parts of the new "law" are written in illegable script so nobody knows what all it says.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 01:53:11 AM by Lou Schneider »
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Tom

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2017, 08:32:41 AM »
Bill, Harrow is in a suburb of London, so that would be England. Several of these very expensive privately operated schools (known as 'public' schools) exist in other parts of the UK.

The state run grammar & secondary schools (equivalent of high schools, and funded from taxes) existed across the UK. I happened to attend one of only two grammar schools in our part of Wales. All the state-funded schools came under an 'education authority' of which there was only one for the whole of Wales. In our case, the line drawn at 10% applied only to schools in Wales, while EAs in other parts of the UK presumably applied their own filter.

A few years after I attended grammar school, they abolished the 2-tier high school education system, and all pre-college kids attended "comprehensive school". Made more sense than attempting to academically screen all kids at 10 or 11 years of age.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:24:10 AM by Tom »
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Re: School at a price
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2017, 09:07:15 AM »
Today I learned from a cousin in the UK that these very expensive private schools were actually started as charitable institutions for poor children, but that was a long time ago.
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Bill N

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2017, 07:02:41 PM »

And what is worse is the new "Tax Law" the T.Rump just signed.   Student loan forgivness, Gone, Tax deduction for interest on the loan, Gone, and cost of education, Increased.   But in truth, parts of the new "law" are written in illegable script so nobody knows what all it says.

To be honest John, I have done the formula on the new law and I will pay about $1000 less in taxes so I am not one to complain.  I also recognize the value of reducing the corporate tax figure which was one of the worlds highest to a reasonable level encouraging companies to return their overseas profits back home and invest in expansion of US properties and jobs.  Student loan forgiveness is not on my radar.  I say, if they really felt the need to borrow it, they  need to repay it.  What is the difference between a student loan and any other?  As I said earlier, college has become some sort of right of passage in this country and probably one reason the skilled manual jobs have gone overseas.  In summary, I like the tax law - it has been 30 years and is well needed.  JMHO
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 07:05:19 PM by Bill N »
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John From Detroit

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2017, 07:26:11 PM »
Bill if the CEOs owners and stock holders shared the tax cut with the workers, or hired more workers I would agree with you. but that is NOT going to happen. (Source. Experience)
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Alaskansnowbirds

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2017, 08:19:48 PM »
Bill if the CEOs owners and stock holders shared the tax cut with the workers, or hired more workers I would agree with you. but that is NOT going to happen. (Source. Experience)

John, this is what they are doing after the tax cut.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2017/12/22/heres-a-list-or-companies-giving-worker-bonuses-aftee-tax-reform-n2426226
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Bill N

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2017, 09:10:05 PM »
Bill if the CEOs owners and stock holders shared the tax cut with the workers, or hired more workers I would agree with you. but that is NOT going to happen. (Source. Experience)

John, it is not a matter of 'sharing' the result of the lower tax.  It can do several things - lower  the price, result in more expansion and the addition of jobs.  If you have experience it has to be at least 30 years old and my experience was somewhat different as I recall.  I really have to laugh when some people say it benefits the rich.  Twenty percent of the  taxpayers already pay 90 percent of the  taxes so maybe they are due a bit of a break.  The things that irk me the most (and they are in this tax bill) are the credits that actually give cash to people who pay NO taxes in the form of earned income credits or child care credits.  No need for me to go too deep into child care because I am one of those dinosaurs who believe that one parent should be at home providing the milk and cookies when the kids come home.  Lack of parenting is a whole nother subject best not broached in this thread.

Bill
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PJ Stough

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2017, 09:28:30 PM »
John, it is not a matter of 'sharing' the result of the lower tax.  It can do several things - lower  the price, result in more expansion and the addition of jobs.  If you have experience it has to be at least 30 years old and my experience was somewhat different as I recall.  I really have to laugh when some people say it benefits the rich.  Twenty percent of the  taxpayers already pay 90 percent of the  taxes so maybe they are due a bit of a break.  The things that irk me the most (and they are in this tax bill) are the credits that actually give cash to people who pay NO taxes in the form of earned income credits or child care credits.  No need for me to go too deep into child care because I am one of those dinosaurs who believe that one parent should be at home providing the milk and cookies when the kids come home.  Lack of parenting is a whole nother subject best not broached in this thread.

Bill

Why would a business lower its' prices just because it has more money?  I am guess stock holders would not like that.

Why would a business expand its' business and hire more people just because they have more cash?  If that were the case why isnt Apple, who has about 250 billion in cash on hand using this money to reduce prices, expand, or hire more people?

The same 20% who pay 90% of the taxes, I would guess make 90% of the income.

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TonyDtorch

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2017, 11:59:27 PM »
Why would a business lower its' prices just because it has more money?  I am guess stock holders would not like that.

Henry Ford did it several times and it made him one of the wealthiest men in America.

PJ Stough

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2017, 12:35:23 AM »
Henry Ford did it several times and it made him one of the wealthiest men in America.

There are lots of businesses besides Apple who have millions or billions in cash on hand.  If they were going to do any of the previously mentioned things, there is no reason they could have not done it already.  So why would anyone believe if they have millions or billions more, they will do things differently?
PJ Stough   Iowa
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TonyDtorch

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2017, 12:59:14 AM »
Millions or billions of dollars doesn't mean as much as it used to....

How much is Mr. Amazon worth now ?

the national debt is Trillions    That's a lot of money !

When the city of L.A. dropped a lot of the "Fees"  (or taxes) to film movies in the city.... the tax revenue increased.

Money stimulates taxes ....taxes never stimulate money.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 01:12:29 AM by TonyDtorch »

Lou Schneider

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2017, 01:58:51 AM »
Millions or billions of dollars doesn't mean as much as it used to....

True.  $300 when JFD started college (1960?) is the same as $2,500 today.  It's called inflation.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:20:02 AM by Lou Schneider »

Bill N

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2017, 05:05:36 AM »
Why would a business lower its' prices just because it has more money?  I am guess stock holders would not like that.

Why would a business expand its' business and hire more people just because they have more cash?  If that were the case why isnt Apple, who has about 250 billion in cash on hand using this money to reduce prices, expand, or hire more people?

The same 20% who pay 90% of the taxes, I would guess make 90% of the income.

Looks like we are on the opposite side of the spectrum here Paul.  In my business, if I wanted to be competitive I had to definitely keep my price in line with others.  Taxes are a major part of the price structure and maybe if I was the only company in my field I could definitely stash the extra money from reduced taxes.  But, since I have competitors, they would soon bury me with lower prices for basically the same product. 
Why would a business expand its' business and hire more people just because they have more cash? Because it takes money to make more money and you seem to suggest that they just let it sit.  Idle cash in a business if it becomes excessive is basically useless.  Companies tend to use big profits to expand and expansion involves more jobs.  Economics 101.

It is a proven statistic that 47% pay NO taxes and the definition of the middle class seems to change with every political speech. 
In short, I am very much in favor of the new tax bill and really have to laugh at polls that say it is not popular.  How many people had any clue even what was in it before it was passed so how could a poll accurately predict anything - even a presidential election.......lol
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 05:10:39 AM by Bill N »
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lynnmor

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2017, 08:33:46 AM »
We can invest in ourselves any way we choose.  Some invest in collage in hopes of getting a return on that investment.  Others invest in their small business in an effort to produce more wealth.  The average student indebtedness upon graduation is 20 some thousand dollars, about the price of a used pickup truck.  Tell me why that debt or interest should be forgiven.  Shouldn't a business owner get a free pickup?  ???

PJ Stough

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2017, 10:50:42 AM »
Looks like we are on the opposite side of the spectrum here Paul.  In my business, if I wanted to be competitive I had to definitely keep my price in line with others.  Taxes are a major part of the price structure and maybe if I was the only company in my field I could definitely stash the extra money from reduced taxes.  But, since I have competitors, they would soon bury me with lower prices for basically the same product. 
Why would a business expand its' business and hire more people just because they have more cash? Because it takes money to make more money and you seem to suggest that they just let it sit.  Idle cash in a business if it becomes excessive is basically useless. Companies tend to use big profits to expand and expansion involves more jobs.  Economics 101.

It is a proven statistic that 47% pay NO taxes and the definition of the middle class seems to change with every political speech. 
In short, I am very much in favor of the new tax bill and really have to laugh at polls that say it is not popular.  How many people had any clue even what was in it before it was passed so how could a poll accurately predict anything - even a presidential election.......lol

So why hasnt Apple reduced the price of its' products?  Are you saying it has no competition?

Also, are you saying that companies expand their businesses when they have large profits, even if there is no increase in demand for their product?

Again, if this were true, Apple would have spent at least part of its'  250 billion dollars reducing prices, and increasing production, including hiring more workers.  Since they havent, your argument is demonstrably false.

We do agree that any poll on the effect of the this tax bill is unreliable, because, as you said, no one knows what all is in it.

We also agree that 47% of the Federal Income Tax filers pay no taxes.  That is not because they are cheating the system, but they simply dont make enough money to OWE any taxes, which is the real heart of the problem.
PJ Stough   Iowa
2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J

Bill N

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2017, 11:10:04 AM »
Paul it sounds as if you are basing your whole argument on one company - Apple.  All of my higher education was in business related areas and specialties.  But when you say my argument is demonstrably false that is your viewpoint but there are sure a lot of economics and business administration folks who will agree with it.  I guess we can just leave it at agreeing to disagree.

Bill
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PJ Stough

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2017, 01:13:46 PM »
Paul it sounds as if you are basing your whole argument on one company - Apple.  All of my higher education was in business related areas and specialties.  But when you say my argument is demonstrably false that is your viewpoint but there are sure a lot of economics and business administration folks who will agree with it.  I guess we can just leave it at agreeing to disagree.

Bill

I was using Apple just as an example.  There are lots of companies sitting on huge amounts of cash and not hiring more people or lowering prices.  My conclusions are based on observation, and not on economists or some business administration folks charts, graphs or statistics.

So yes, we will just have to agree to disagree.
PJ Stough   Iowa
2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J

TonyDtorch

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2017, 01:55:40 PM »
Apple,  really doesn't have competition.   

There are other devices ..but nothing exactly like Apple.

Until there is a better, cheaper, 'Apple' like product,  Apple will keep raising their prices until they start loosing market control.

  Henry Ford  did it another way,   he reduced his profit marg. lowered the price of his product which increased demand and thus increased Fords market control.

(Henry Ford did not go to college)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:07:13 PM by TonyDtorch »

Willandgiselarv

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2017, 02:02:41 PM »
We can invest in ourselves any way we choose.  Some invest in collage in hopes of getting a return on that investment.  Others invest in their small business in an effort to produce more wealth.  The average student indebtedness upon graduation is 20 some thousand dollars, about the price of a used pickup truck.  Tell me why that debt or interest should be forgiven.  Shouldn't a business owner get a free pickup?  ???


Excellent point...student loans should be paid back..
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TonyDtorch

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2017, 02:07:46 PM »

Excellent point...student loans should be paid back..

Part of the problem is... the Student Loan industry is just as ethical as the Home Loan industry was.

College educations and Student Loans are a huge industry.    University's have become a 4 year long Toga party with competing football teams. 
 Pay the money you will receive a certificate of higher income.... and you can run a cool "Alumni" license plate frame on your car.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 02:30:17 PM by TonyDtorch »

PJ Stough

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Re: School at a price
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2017, 02:24:25 PM »
The student loan problem is just another part of the problem when you have 47% of Federal Income Tax filers not making enough money to OWE any Federal Income taxes.
PJ Stough   Iowa
2005 Winnebago Voyage 38J