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Author Topic: receptacles  (Read 1335 times)

mellis

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receptacles
« on: December 29, 2017, 11:25:49 AM »
hello everyone ,,, i have another weird thing i found ,,,,  i am an electrician ,,,  i was going to change 2 of the receps   to  receps with ports for charging phones ,,,  when i pulled the recep out i found there is no  boxes in the wall ,,,  the receps just had wings to hold it in the wall,,, is this normal in an rv ,,,   very short  12 wire coming right into recep  and insalation ,,,   i do not think this is  safe ,,,   

thanks again
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 11:31:03 AM by Sun2Retire »

kdbgoat

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 11:55:34 AM »
Yep, normal in an RV. And they back stab the receptacles on top of that. Get decent receptacles, side wire them under the screws, and tape 'em up with 33.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

mellis

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 03:15:44 PM »
i would do that but i have nothing to attach the receps to,, i would have to install a box to hold them in  ,  these seem to be  special receps that have the fins on them just like an old work box  ,,,  sucks   lol 

OLDRACER

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 04:34:36 PM »
Cheap build, thin walls, little space. Maybe a shallow box, plastic, glue in place? Not much in those walls to move around and interfere with wires.

Then again, as a customer service told me years ago, speaking abut a name brand RV range, "We did not intend for you to LIVE in those things!!!"

John From Detroit

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 04:48:31 PM »
Yes it is normal. and if you open the box and see how the wires connect. and think of 10+ amps going through that tiny wire contact area.. You will fully understand WHY I do not like those, or recommend plugging space heaters into them.

I like 12ga wire bent around a properly tightened screw for space heaters.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

ziplock

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 05:19:10 PM »
I have a 2018 Chateau.

Do they come with cheap wire these days too, or have they finally upgraded to 12 gauge wire?

I'd like to  run  a space heater, but  after reading this thread.............. and being NEW  to all this stuff in general,  Now I'm scared.

And  how  are  those people that DO live  in their RVs,  doing this week with the COLD?  My goodness, the temps  in Maryland  are bad:  We got up to 12 degrees in my neighborhood.  YUCK!
2018 Chateau 22r New  to  This! May 2017
Wish we were retired!

Oldgator73

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 06:45:12 PM »
We ran space heaters when we fulltimed in our 5th wheel and do so now in our Winnie Drop.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier

malexander

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 06:53:06 PM »
Clayton manufactured homes, as wells as a few others, use the SAME set-up. I'm a licensed plumbing, electric, & HVAC contractor. All I do is mobile/modular home service and utility hook ups.
I've seen these things work forever, then some don't even work on brand new one. I don't like them either.
Marshall Alexander
2007 Fleetwood Bounder 38N DP, 2008 GL 1800 Goldwing, 2007 VTX 1300, Cessna 150 & 172, Rans S19 Venterra

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 07:02:24 PM »
I'll disagree with the others - I think those receptacles work fine, though there are perhaps some differences in quality of the receps and the installation. The better ones press the bared wire into a long ridged slot and clamp it in place, rather than a simple spring loaded back-stab as is found on household receps. Properly installed, those wires aren't going anywhere!
Looks like this one: https://www.rvautoparts.com/RV-Designer-Outlet-Dual-wCover-Plate-White-S811_p_7460.html

They were also common in mobile home construction at one time and mobile home supply stores are a good source for parts. Wirecon (Hubbell) is a major manufacurer of this type. Haven't seen that type with a USB port, though.
https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/parts/230215.html

Here is a video showing a handy special tool for installation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuo2EFKfJ58

You can use an old work box and a standard style recep if you have enough depth in the wall or cabinet.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 07:17:35 PM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
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Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2017, 08:34:09 PM »
I've replaced nearly all of the outlets in our coach with 1-1/2' deep old-work boxes and side wired outlets. I haven't found any place they didn't fit yet. As said, I much prefer the superior contact area of side wired connections to the flimsy back-stab connections. I've pulled out too many burnt Wirecon outlets in older mobile homes and RV's to trust them for anything that draws more than a few amps. And that Wirecon installation tool is a little pricey for occasional amateur use.

Gary, where did you see a Wirecon outlet with USB ports? That's a new one to me...
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 08:36:01 PM by NY_Dutch »
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
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RLSharp

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2017, 08:46:04 PM »
Gary, where did you see a Wirecon outlet with USB ports? That's a new one to me...

Dutch,
Here is a quote from Gary's post.
R

Wirecon (Hubbell) is a major manufacurer of this type. Haven't seen that type with a USB port, though.
Richard & Linda
Rochester, NY (summer)
Tucson, AZ (winter)

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2017, 08:58:13 PM »
Dutch,
Here is a quote from Gary's post.
R


Yep, my error. I thought he had seen one pictured and was looking for a source.
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

lynnmor

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2017, 09:09:55 PM »
I was able to replace all but one of the outlets with ones that have screw connections.  For an electric space heater I added a breaker and a dedicated outlet.  If you do install real devices in shallow boxes, you will be severely limited to the number of wires allowed by code.  The smallest boxes containing a device will allow only one cable (2 wires & ground), so you canít continue on with a second cable.

John From Detroit

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 08:17:39 AM »
Ok, the history behind my post.
When I first used a space heater ONE outlet gave me "hot wire" smell. Just one (I used two heters)

WHen I broke it down there was some discoloration of insulation but not really a problem

Another RVER the wire melted and arced, this could have cuased a fire, had he not caught it in time.

As I said, I went with 15/20 amp side wired outlets and 12ga for my space hetars. 14ga is heavy enough b ut I believe in safety margains.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

catblaster

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2017, 08:46:03 AM »
   On ours I found one receptacle that had a burnt wire, one that showed arcing and another that would work with the block hearer but not with my CPAP...it was wired wrong.The only 12 ga wire in mine is the multiple outlets added by me. Even though I dont care for the connections used I have seen many screw connections com loose from expansion and contraction and that is on copper wire, just recently I went back thru my home breaker panel and found several that had loosened up but of course it is a GE panel.....soon to change.
Will and Jane
95 Winnebago Luxor

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2017, 09:18:59 AM »
Sorry to nitpick, but "back stab" isn't correct terminology for these "Self-Contained Devices" (SCD), as they are called in the code.   Back-stab refers to spring loaded push-in connectors that are limited to 14 gauge wire.  Back-stab got a bad reputation back in the 70's and 80's because the retaining springs were inadequate and wires popped loose, especially if installed without adequate slack in the wiring.  Since then, the stab springs have been greatly improved (at least on the better quality outlets) and UL, CSA and the NEC limit the stab to 14 gauge wire to reduce the tension on it.

An SCD uses twin V-shaped slots for each wire and the wire is pressed in using a special tool, with the insulation still in place. The slots edges cut the insulation si it need not be removed. After the wires are in place, a back cover acts as a retainer as well as an electrical shield, so no outlet box is required. For more details, see https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf

DIY people often get frustrated with these unfamiliar devices, I think mostly because they are difficult to unwire/rewire without special tools and replacements are often not available in local store.  It's popular to denigrate the SCD's, but [in my opinion] they are not any more likely to fail than a screw terminal type. Maybe even less, since screws can vibrate loose. If you've ever tried to remove a wire from an SCD slot, you know that problem ain't too likely!

I'll admit that RV manufacturers have a genius for finding cheap components that may have marginal quality/performance, so there are maybe some mediocre SCD outlets in some RVs. And the RV assembly process isn't always top shelf either.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 09:25:51 AM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
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HRDWRK

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2017, 09:22:20 AM »
I am new in RV world. We have been doing this for a year but I have to say that I am very concern about the quality of material and the work I see on these RVs. We have a 2016 Thor Chateau. When this last summer at Yellowstone temperature hit below freezing and snowed unexpectedly, our furnace failed and we had to use space heater instead. I was very worried about the electrical circuit. I am not an electrician but based on the quality that I have seen I was very concern to run space hear 24 hours a day. Anyways, after the trip I decided to route a direct dedicated 12 gauge wire to a shallow box with 15 amp residential receptacle. There was more than enough room under the bed. I just supported the flimsy wall with some extra support to screw the box. The wire connect to 15-20 amp shore electrical panel, basically it bypasses the RV electrical system. Just an idea.
2016 Thor Chateau 28Z
2005 Chevy Duramax

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 09:34:58 AM »
I was able to replace all but one of the outlets with ones that have screw connections.  For an electric space heater I added a breaker and a dedicated outlet.  If you do install real devices in shallow boxes, you will be severely limited to the number of wires allowed by code.  The smallest boxes containing a device will allow only one cable (2 wires & ground), so you canít continue on with a second cable.

If you need more room in a shallow box, there are versions made with that in mind. I used the Carlon box below from Home Depot.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-17-cu-in-Shallow-Old-Work-Box-B117RSWR/202077341
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2017, 09:43:43 AM »
Sorry to nitpick, but "back stab" isn't correct terminology for these "Self-Contained Devices" (SCD), as they are called in the code.   Back-stab refers to spring loaded push-in connectors that are limited to 14 gauge wire.  Back-stab got a bad reputation back in the 70's and 80's because the retaining springs were inadequate and wires popped loose, especially if installed without adequate slack in the wiring.  Since then, the stab springs have been greatly improved (at least on the better quality outlets) and UL, CSA and the NEC limit the stab to 14 gauge wire to reduce the tension on it.

An SCD uses twin V-shaped slots for each wire and the wire is pressed in using a special tool, with the insulation still in place. The slots edges cut the insulation si it need not be removed. After the wires are in place, a back cover acts as a retainer as well as an electrical shield, so no outlet box is required. For more details, see https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf

DIY people often get frustrated with these unfamiliar devices, I think mostly because they are difficult to unwire/rewire without special tools and replacements are often not available in local store.  It's popular to denigrate the SCD's, but [in my opinion] they are not any more likely to fail than a screw terminal type. Maybe even less, since screws can vibrate loose. If you've ever tried to remove a wire from an SCD slot, you know that problem ain't too likely!

I'll admit that RV manufacturers have a genius for finding cheap components that may have marginal quality/performance, so there are maybe some mediocre SCD outlets in some RVs. And the RV assembly process isn't always top shelf either.

I agree that "back stab" is not correct in reference to SCD's although the SCD contact area is only marginally larger than conventional "back stab" outlets. It's that small contact area that causes problems under high current loads. The contacts heat up and lose spring tension. Thankfully, the wire looses contact before any serious damage occurs most of the time, but sometimes it gets pretty hot in there first, and that can get serious. "Back stab" conventional outlets are even worse. Below is a photo showing the wire contact in a typical back stab outlet connection. Scary...
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 10:06:28 AM »
Agree, the contact area is both types is rather small. Supposedly adequate for the rated amp loads, but then the quality concern comes into play. Some of these boxes may be marginal.

If you worry about those, you might also want to avoid the common multi-outlet strips, which often use the same connector mechanism inside. Both plug-in strips and wall-mounted types often use the slotted wire method inside.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2017, 10:22:07 AM »

I only use commercial outlet strips for light duty loads like multiple USB chargers, etc. For heavier loads, I make my own multi-outlet boxes sized for the job.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 10:24:12 AM by NY_Dutch »
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

kdbgoat

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2017, 01:15:39 PM »
Back stab, SCD, whatever you want to call it, still isn't as good as a properly installed with around a screw in my opinion. I'm an industrial electrician by trade, and screws vibrating loose from vibration doesn't wash with me. There's millions of screws with conductors wrapped around them on machinery around the world, and failures from screws loosening up are far and few in between. I trust a conductor installed under a screw to carry a load, than incidental contact from being punched down in a receptacle.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

mellis

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2017, 05:59:44 PM »
well i believe this post started with me asking about no box in the wall,,,  lol ,,,  i am a licensed electricain  for  30 years and i guess i am just not used to the  fact that all devices  must be in a box,, now if the back of the rv receps are UL listed for this use that is cool i understand ,,,  i do have  12 wire running to them , and to use the receps that have the usb ports on them i will have to  use a box ,,  That video i saw on them was very interesting and i have to admit i have never seen them before ,,, but the again i have never worked on an  RV  before,, learn something new  all the time ,,,

NY_Dutch

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2017, 06:13:53 PM »
The Carlon box I linked to earlier would be fine for installing outlets with USB ports. Another option would be to just plug multi-taps with USB ports into the existing outlets.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M4LSSP8
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2017, 07:05:13 PM »
Quote
i am a licensed electricain  for  30 years and i guess i am just not used to the  fact that all devices  must be in a box

LOL! It's my perspective that more than a few licensed electricians have led rather sheltered lives, perhaps doing new residential construction almost exclusively.  They know residential wiring well, and what is needed to get through a local inspection, but probably have forgotten - or never seen - other methods and types of wiring.  Residential reflects only a modest part of the whole NEC, but one could have an entire career without ever dabbling in those other chapters. Even mobile home construction often gets into areas that folks accustomed to site-built rarely see.

We also see their handiwork here too often when they try to install RV shore power outlets, all too frequently mistaking the 30A/120v RV outlet for the similar-looking 220v outlet and creating some very nice spark displays.  You would think a pro would be smart enough to check when installing something unfamiliar...

In any case, use the shallow old-work box that Dutch suggested and the problem is solved.

Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

kdbgoat

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 05:37:05 AM »
I know what you mean about the sheltered life thing, but I'm quite the opposite. If you dropped me off at a bare framed house with a pile of Romex and receptacles, I wouldn't know where to begin. Drop me off at a manufacturing plant, chemical plant, etc., and I'll hit the ground runnin,' at those types of places. I used to do pretty good at the networking end of it, but technology has passed me by since riding a desk the last 9 years in an unrelated field. There are many different facets when talking about being an electrician. Unfortunately, there are many that really don't have a clue as to how electricity works, and couldn't troubleshoot anything past a blown lightbulb.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Oldgator73

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2017, 07:20:27 AM »
IMHO some here are being a bit harsh on those in the electrical field. Just like any other profession there are those that are good, mediocre, and those that really suck. Most of my family were electricians. Both my father and uncle were exterior electricians (linemen), my bother was an interior electrician and I was a Class B operator (truck driver on a line crew). We all worked out of Local 756 in Daytona Beach, FL. There are those that mainly do commercial work and those that spend the majority of their time on residential. We did highline, distribution and underground work. My father and uncle couldn't wire a house if their life depended on it. But they could shimmy up a 110 foot pole and stay up there all day. My brother could wire a house but couldn't put on a pair of hooks and climb a pole if HIS life depended on it. So maybe we shouldn't lump all into what our ideal of someone in a profession should know. Nobody is all knowing.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier

kdbgoat

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2017, 07:34:33 AM »
Exactly my point. I have a lot of respect for linemen. One mistake and done. I've helped build and installed poles, but leave the actual wiring to those that know what they are doing.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2017, 09:39:32 AM »
Quote
IMHO some here are being a bit harsh on those in the electrical field. Just like any other profession there are those that are good, mediocre, and those that really suck.

No doubt you are right.  I think, though, that there is a tendency to consider anyone who uses the title of "electrician" to be all-knowing in the mysteries of electricity.  The people who hire them, or quote them in forums such as this, and often of the electricians themselves, believe they have unlimited knowledge of the subject.  There is also some notion that the "electrician" has had extensive formal training and has passed some rigorous skill test, but that is generally not true.  Many states license electrical contractors, but leave the training & skills of the employees up to him and on-the-job training is the usual. The workers learn what they need to know to do their usual jobs and typically the boss or a lead tech handles any problems.  Merely working in the field of electricity does not necessarily confer knowledge of all things electrical, and often the person has little skill or knowledge outside of his usual tasks. In some areas the professional electricians are unionized and the IBEW has a formal apprentice-journeyman-master training programs, but you don't have to be trained in 120v power wiring to be a union member. You could be a burglar alarm installer or work on power transmission lines (linemen) or handle cable tv coax. They are all "electricians".  I hasten to add that this is no different than many other trades, e.g. cook/chef, plumber, auto mechanic, or RV tech.

In my experience the folks who term themselves industrial electricians have a broader knowledge of electrical matters than residential workers, but as kdbgoat says, that doesn't mean they know all there is to know about wiring houses, barns or RV.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Oldgator73

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Re: receptacles
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2017, 10:09:00 AM »
It should be common sense (or since sense is not so common, uncommon sense) that when someone says they are (insert profession) that person is usually not trained in every aspect of the profession. RE: medical doctor, veterinarian, nurse, attorney, plumber (might know residential plumbing but are they proficient in backflow prevention), roofer (might know commercial roofing but not residential roofing), etc,etc.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier

 

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