receptacles

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mellis

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hello everyone ,,, i have another weird thing i found ,,,,  i am an electrician ,,,  i was going to change 2 of the receps  to  receps with ports for charging phones ,,,  when i pulled the recep out i found there is no  boxes in the wall ,,,  the receps just had wings to hold it in the wall,,, is this normal in an rv ,,,  very short  12 wire coming right into recep  and insalation ,,,  i do not think this is  safe ,,,   

thanks again
 
Yep, normal in an RV. And they back stab the receptacles on top of that. Get decent receptacles, side wire them under the screws, and tape 'em up with 33.
 
i would do that but i have nothing to attach the receps to,, i would have to install a box to hold them in  ,  these seem to be  special receps that have the fins on them just like an old work box  ,,,  sucks  lol 
 
Cheap build, thin walls, little space. Maybe a shallow box, plastic, glue in place? Not much in those walls to move around and interfere with wires.

Then again, as a customer service told me years ago, speaking abut a name brand RV range, "We did not intend for you to LIVE in those things!!!"
 
Yes it is normal. and if you open the box and see how the wires connect. and think of 10+ amps going through that tiny wire contact area.. You will fully understand WHY I do not like those, or recommend plugging space heaters into them.

I like 12ga wire bent around a properly tightened screw for space heaters.
 
I have a 2018 Chateau.

Do they come with cheap wire these days too, or have they finally upgraded to 12 gauge wire?

I'd like to  run  a space heater, but  after reading this thread.............. and being NEW  to all this stuff in general,  Now I'm scared.

And  how  are  those people that DO live  in their RVs,  doing this week with the COLD?  My goodness, the temps  in Maryland  are bad:  We got up to 12 degrees in my neighborhood.  YUCK!
 
Clayton manufactured homes, as wells as a few others, use the SAME set-up. I'm a licensed plumbing, electric, & HVAC contractor. All I do is mobile/modular home service and utility hook ups.
I've seen these things work forever, then some don't even work on brand new one. I don't like them either.
 
I'll disagree with the others - I think those receptacles work fine, though there are perhaps some differences in quality of the receps and the installation. The better ones press the bared wire into a long ridged slot and clamp it in place, rather than a simple spring loaded back-stab as is found on household receps. Properly installed, those wires aren't going anywhere!
Looks like this one: https://www.rvautoparts.com/RV-Designer-Outlet-Dual-wCover-Plate-White-S811_p_7460.html

They were also common in mobile home construction at one time and mobile home supply stores are a good source for parts. Wirecon (Hubbell) is a major manufacurer of this type. Haven't seen that type with a USB port, though.
https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/parts/230215.html

Here is a video showing a handy special tool for installation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuo2EFKfJ58

You can use an old work box and a standard style recep if you have enough depth in the wall or cabinet.
 
I've replaced nearly all of the outlets in our coach with 1-1/2' deep old-work boxes and side wired outlets. I haven't found any place they didn't fit yet. As said, I much prefer the superior contact area of side wired connections to the flimsy back-stab connections. I've pulled out too many burnt Wirecon outlets in older mobile homes and RV's to trust them for anything that draws more than a few amps. And that Wirecon installation tool is a little pricey for occasional amateur use.

Gary, where did you see a Wirecon outlet with USB ports? That's a new one to me...
 
I was able to replace all but one of the outlets with ones that have screw connections.  For an electric space heater I added a breaker and a dedicated outlet.  If you do install real devices in shallow boxes, you will be severely limited to the number of wires allowed by code.  The smallest boxes containing a device will allow only one cable (2 wires & ground), so you can?t continue on with a second cable.
 
Ok, the history behind my post.
When I first used a space heater ONE outlet gave me "hot wire" smell. Just one (I used two heters)

WHen I broke it down there was some discoloration of insulation but not really a problem

Another RVER the wire melted and arced, this could have cuased a fire, had he not caught it in time.

As I said, I went with 15/20 amp side wired outlets and 12ga for my space hetars. 14ga is heavy enough b ut I believe in safety margains.
 
  On ours I found one receptacle that had a burnt wire, one that showed arcing and another that would work with the block hearer but not with my CPAP...it was wired wrong.The only 12 ga wire in mine is the multiple outlets added by me. Even though I dont care for the connections used I have seen many screw connections com loose from expansion and contraction and that is on copper wire, just recently I went back thru my home breaker panel and found several that had loosened up but of course it is a GE panel.....soon to change.
 
Sorry to nitpick, but "back stab" isn't correct terminology for these "Self-Contained Devices" (SCD), as they are called in the code.  Back-stab refers to spring loaded push-in connectors that are limited to 14 gauge wire.  Back-stab got a bad reputation back in the 70's and 80's because the retaining springs were inadequate and wires popped loose, especially if installed without adequate slack in the wiring.  Since then, the stab springs have been greatly improved (at least on the better quality outlets) and UL, CSA and the NEC limit the stab to 14 gauge wire to reduce the tension on it.

An SCD uses twin V-shaped slots for each wire and the wire is pressed in using a special tool, with the insulation still in place. The slots edges cut the insulation si it need not be removed. After the wires are in place, a back cover acts as a retainer as well as an electrical shield, so no outlet box is required. For more details, see https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf

DIY people often get frustrated with these unfamiliar devices, I think mostly because they are difficult to unwire/rewire without special tools and replacements are often not available in local store.  It's popular to denigrate the SCD's, but [in my opinion] they are not any more likely to fail than a screw terminal type. Maybe even less, since screws can vibrate loose. If you've ever tried to remove a wire from an SCD slot, you know that problem ain't too likely!

I'll admit that RV manufacturers have a genius for finding cheap components that may have marginal quality/performance, so there are maybe some mediocre SCD outlets in some RVs. And the RV assembly process isn't always top shelf either.
 
I am new in RV world. We have been doing this for a year but I have to say that I am very concern about the quality of material and the work I see on these RVs. We have a 2016 Thor Chateau. When this last summer at Yellowstone temperature hit below freezing and snowed unexpectedly, our furnace failed and we had to use space heater instead. I was very worried about the electrical circuit. I am not an electrician but based on the quality that I have seen I was very concern to run space hear 24 hours a day. Anyways, after the trip I decided to route a direct dedicated 12 gauge wire to a shallow box with 15 amp residential receptacle. There was more than enough room under the bed. I just supported the flimsy wall with some extra support to screw the box. The wire connect to 15-20 amp shore electrical panel, basically it bypasses the RV electrical system. Just an idea.
 
lynnmor said:
I was able to replace all but one of the outlets with ones that have screw connections.  For an electric space heater I added a breaker and a dedicated outlet.  If you do install real devices in shallow boxes, you will be severely limited to the number of wires allowed by code.  The smallest boxes containing a device will allow only one cable (2 wires & ground), so you can?t continue on with a second cable.
Click to expand...

If you need more room in a shallow box, there are versions made with that in mind. I used the Carlon box below from Home Depot.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-17-cu-in-Shallow-Old-Work-Box-B117RSWR/202077341
 

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Gary RV_Wizard said:
Sorry to nitpick, but "back stab" isn't correct terminology for these "Self-Contained Devices" (SCD), as they are called in the code.  Back-stab refers to spring loaded push-in connectors that are limited to 14 gauge wire.  Back-stab got a bad reputation back in the 70's and 80's because the retaining springs were inadequate and wires popped loose, especially if installed without adequate slack in the wiring.  Since then, the stab springs have been greatly improved (at least on the better quality outlets) and UL, CSA and the NEC limit the stab to 14 gauge wire to reduce the tension on it.

An SCD uses twin V-shaped slots for each wire and the wire is pressed in using a special tool, with the insulation still in place. The slots edges cut the insulation si it need not be removed. After the wires are in place, a back cover acts as a retainer as well as an electrical shield, so no outlet box is required. For more details, see https://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/documents/scd-instructions.pdf

DIY people often get frustrated with these unfamiliar devices, I think mostly because they are difficult to unwire/rewire without special tools and replacements are often not available in local store.  It's popular to denigrate the SCD's, but [in my opinion] they are not any more likely to fail than a screw terminal type. Maybe even less, since screws can vibrate loose. If you've ever tried to remove a wire from an SCD slot, you know that problem ain't too likely!

I'll admit that RV manufacturers have a genius for finding cheap components that may have marginal quality/performance, so there are maybe some mediocre SCD outlets in some RVs. And the RV assembly process isn't always top shelf either.
Click to expand...

I agree that "back stab" is not correct in reference to SCD's although the SCD contact area is only marginally larger than conventional "back stab" outlets. It's that small contact area that causes problems under high current loads. The contacts heat up and lose spring tension. Thankfully, the wire looses contact before any serious damage occurs most of the time, but sometimes it gets pretty hot in there first, and that can get serious. "Back stab" conventional outlets are even worse. Below is a photo showing the wire contact in a typical back stab outlet connection. Scary...
 

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Agree, the contact area is both types is rather small. Supposedly adequate for the rated amp loads, but then the quality concern comes into play. Some of these boxes may be marginal.

If you worry about those, you might also want to avoid the common multi-outlet strips, which often use the same connector mechanism inside. Both plug-in strips and wall-mounted types often use the slotted wire method inside.
 
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