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Author Topic: PDI-when to walk away  (Read 1908 times)

ZinLuvR

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PDI-when to walk away
« on: February 02, 2018, 05:50:24 PM »
Buying a new class A.  During the PDI, is there a point where the to do list is too much and you walk away from the deal?  Everything is covered by warranty, fair enough, the dealer will "fix" it.  As usual, their lips are moving so you know they're lying.  How big do you let your list get?  Minor things, no big deal?  I guess you can weigh the problems vs the deal you're getting.  I have heard many times how things leave the factory that shouldn't have and the dealer has to fix all kinds of things.  Looked at an American Coach Revolution, brand new, in the shop getting a window replaced and among other things there are lights dangling from the ceiling???  Saw a new Thor Tuscany with the aqua-hot all tore apart???  Normal, I guess, but is there a magic number where you consider the "to do" list during the PDI to be just too much?
2009 Monaco Dynasty Regal IV
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2016 Explorer toad

Ranger smith

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 06:05:39 PM »
That is why I don't buy new. If I were to buy new it would be a Tiffin, Newmar or Winnebago. I stay away from THOR . . . Like the Tuscany and the Fleetwood American. Anybody can put glitter in but it is the quality of the build.

I just purchased our 2012 Tour 2 weeks ago. I was originally supposed to but a Meridian 42E but they called when they were PDI ing it and said the main slide needed all new schwintek tracks and motors and it would take 2 weeks to get the parts. Said . . . no thanks not interested. Got the Tour for a few bucks more and no schwintek slides.
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SeilerBird

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 06:07:42 PM »
This is why I buy used. Many people here have complained about buying a new RV and having it sit in the shop for the first six months waiting for parts. The money you save in the depreciation that doesn't happen will more than pay for a mobile mechanic to come to you and fix your problems.
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JudyJB

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 10:42:14 PM »
My experience buying new from Fleetwood is that the dealers are useless when it comes to warranty items.  I ended up at the factory customer service center in Decatur, IN, for most warranty work because the dealer I bought it from: 1) refused to fix things because I had broken them, 2) got irritated when things they "fixed" broke again right away because it was all my fault, and 3) never had the parts needed to fix things, so had to come back more than once.  Factory service people fixed things right the first time, never blamed me for "breaking" things, 3) had a parts warehouse right down the road, and 4) even fixed some things I did not know needed fixing.  They also let me sit in the vehicle while they worked around me.  They provide you with safety goggles and tell you to wear closed-toe shoes, and you can come and go to your vehicle while it is being fixed, assuming it really is possible to work around you.  Only negative is you spend the night in their parking lot and you have to be up and your vehicle ready for work at 5:45 am.   :(
Full-timing for over six years in a
2012 Fleetwood Tioga Ranger 31N

Kevin Means

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 12:56:50 AM »
I don't think there's a magic number. I think you just have to trust your gut based on your own personal RVing  experiences. If you're getting uncomfortable during a PDI, because of all the things that are wrong with it, it's probably time to sit down with the sales manager and bring things to a halt - especially if it's a new RV.

Hopefully, you haven't given them anything more than a refundable deposit, but if you've surpassed your comfort level, because you're finding a lot of problems, I'd insist that everything be fixed before I paid them a dime. It's unfortunate that a lot of new RVs have so many problems, but it seems to be the way things are in the RV industry today.

Our close friends recently had their brand new Class A bought back by the factory, because the dealer could not fix all the problems with it - and the list was long, believe me. They lingered for nearly nine months dealing with problem after problem - many of which were found on the PDI. They were told that everything was covered by the warranty, yet the problems continued. The dealer could not, or would not devote the manpower that would have been necessary to fix all the problems.

It ultimately took almost nine months and several letters from a lawyer to convince the manufacturer that it was in everyone's best interest for them to buy the RV back at full price, which they did. I can't help but wonder if things would have been any different had they made the sale contingent on everything being fixed before they spent a dime.

By the way, they bought a two year old Class A three months later and they've been very happy with it.

Kev
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 01:00:11 AM by Kevin Means »
2011 Winnebago Tour 42QD
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Lakeside, California

timjet

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 06:02:41 AM »
Like Kev said, when that little voice in your head says hmmmmmm....

Hopefully you haven't put any money down. If you really want the unit perhaps tell them they have a modest amount of time to fix it right or the deal is off.

Of course buying a late model used one probably avoids all this and you save a bundle to boot.
Tim
Tampa Bay
'07 American Tradition DP 40', 1.5 bath
'14 Honda CRV

Oscar Mike

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 06:46:46 AM »
The first question that came to mind was "Is this the OP's first RV purchase?" I am not casting stones, but I'm not sure I would get to the point of a PDI if the coach was in such need of repair. As many in this lifestyle have learned, "Buyer Beware". It was an outstanding catch if the OP didn't move forward and the Dealer cooperated. Good luck on a successful end.




whiteva

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 07:31:12 AM »
Insist for onsite camping for at least 24 hours prior to any $$$ or signature. Do your own PDI using checklist available everywhere on-line. If the dealer refuses walk away. If you stay make notes about problems and  make sure the items are repaired properly then sign. If that dealer will not work with you then look for the same unit somewhere else. Slides and leveling if applicable should be exercised several times, listen and look for problems.

If I trust the salesperson then something is wrong!
2008 Winnie 29TR, Class C
Me: RETIRED: Aerobatic flight instructor, RE Broker, EE,-
DW, Nan, works Finance for RV dealer. Travel short distances pulling 77' MGB on dolly.
 If not in the RV we are on the Sea Ray, with Boudreaux the dog-Nibbler the squirrel  & Shadeaux the black cat.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 12:51:16 PM »
The length of the list can be a clue, but you have to think about the substance of the issues as well as the number.  If you have ever bought a house, new or used, you've may have run into a similar situation, developing a "hit list" for the seller or contractor. I would consider walking away if there was anything structural involved or other serious problem. Dealer shop techs are mostly not all that skilled - they are mostly trained to swap parts and work fast. Of course, when they are spending warranty dollars, unnecessary parts swaps are not your worry, but they may not fix the root problem either, so you end up coming back. And waiting in line for repairs that weren't done right the first time.

Sadly, many RV dealers use the PDI as their only prep work list. Anything you don't notice, they don't fix, so look closely!   Something like 15%-20% of new Rvs come from the factory with a several or more obvious defects and 20-30 is not all that uncommon.

We bought one brand new RV, ordered from the factory to our spec.  We had a good tech for our PDI and the PDI hit list grew to 28 items, mostly minor but some very visible defects.  Of course the dealer promised to fix everything, order a couple of parts that were needed, and get us scheduled into his paint & body shop "as soon as possible".  We declined to pay for it until ALL those items were all repaired to our satisfaction and guess what? They found the necessary parts overnight and put it in the body shop the next morning as well.  We were out of there late the next day with everything fixed.  Ironically, we had only two significant warranty problems with that rig and neither showed up until we had a couple thousand miles on it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:55:08 PM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

ZinLuvR

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 06:48:55 PM »
Thank you for all the good responses.  This will be our first class A.  Previously had 29 ft TT.  Although happily married to the most wonderful woman in the world, a little more space for full time would be nice, therefore a larger class A.  We plan to travel as much of the country as possible now that we are both retired.  My DW has some requirements and also has the final approval, you know what I mean. lol.  Have looked at some used, but, there seemed to be "issues" with all of them so far; carpet was icky, the floor tile was too dark, the washer/dryer doesn't match and the biggee, we do not have inside pets since she is allergic so if there is any hint of pet order that's the end of it.  So that brings us to buying new.  A Winnebago Grand Tour and have bargained to the lowest price I have found anywhere, below NADA used low retail with miles.  The terms of the sale are subject to with refundable deposit.  I know I'll still be losing money for the first few years if we had to sell for some reason.  Both myself and my wife don't trust salesmen, no offense to salesmen, so we would have no problem walking away.  Anything structural and it's a no deal.  We have printed about 20 pages of PDI lists from this site and others.  We will split the list up with me doing outside and mechanical and her doing the interior.  Trust me, if there is a single drawer pull that doesn't look right, she'll notice it.  So thanks again for you input, you have given me some ideas that I had not thought about.  Any more suggestions, keep em coming, never too old to learn new tricks.
2009 Monaco Dynasty Regal IV
45ft., tag axle, ISM500
2016 Explorer toad

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 11:26:54 AM »
One drawback to deep price discounts is that the dealer already gave you any dollars he might otherwise have applied to prep work.  I suspect that is at least part of the reason that dealer PDIs have fallen to such a poor quality level. It's pretty easy for a tech to spend several hours just checking over everything, and any repairs would be on top of that.  "Make ready", PDI and actual delivery can easily run to a couple thousand dollars of extra overhead for the dealer, and that is not warranty expense he can bill to the manufacturer.  It's not a trivial expense to do it right.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

KandT

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 05:38:19 PM »
Is there a RV wash nearby?  I have heard of windshields leaking right out of the factory or maybe someone missed some sealant.  Ask the dealer to pay for a wash down while you sit in the RV and look for leaks.  Think you'll get a dealer to find a leak after you hand over the money?  They can be a bugger to find and dealers just don't have time.  Then where are you going to take your leak?
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

dkreuzen

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 09:08:02 AM »
Check out this blog post by one of the popular blog couples.

Winnebago Ė No Sale of Special Ordered Coach Ė Lack of Build Quality
https://outsideourbubble.com/winnebago-no-sale-of-special-ordered-coach-lack-of-build-quality/
Dennis
2012 Monaco Knight 36PFT
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland
2005 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon on 2007 16' Trailer

KandT

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 12:59:25 PM »
Check out this blog post by one of the popular blog couples.

Winnebago Ė No Sale of Special Ordered Coach Ė Lack of Build Quality
https://outsideourbubble.com/winnebago-no-sale-of-special-ordered-coach-lack-of-build-quality/

Imagine that thing when it rains!! 
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD
American Car Dolly
2009 Accord Toad
It's not a problem.  It's a project!

RVRAC

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 02:08:20 PM »
We bought new but a week before signing we went over the unit.  We made a list and took photos of the issues we identified.  They told them that the things in the list had to fixed before closing.  A week later we went back and everything was taken care of.  My suggestion go with PDI list a week before closing.  Trust me, the dealer wants itís money.
2017 Leprechaun 311 FS
Toad: 2016 Jeep Patriot
American Dolly
Home: WI
Snowbird 6 months/yr.

Mile High

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2018, 11:26:00 AM »
The only time I was successful at walking away with my money in my pocket was when the RV was physically damaged (severely) before delivery.  Not sure if the transport did it or the dealer, but it was a no deal and they found another one in progress on the production line.
Brad and Dory
2013 Winnebago Itasca Meridian 42E (new to us 2016)
2013 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Sahara
FMCA 457993 / WIT W170238

ZinLuvR

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 06:59:37 PM »
Update.  The coach went into the dealers PDI a week ago, they have their "best tech" on it.  No word yet on anything. ?????  OK, red flags going up, warning bells ringing.
Horror story from the couple and the Tour 42GD.  That model is no longer being produced, replaced by the new Horizon 42Q being built in Junction City, OR. at the old Country Coach factory.  I hope the quality comes through with it.  It's a beautiful new model.
Anyway, can't wait to hear about how well things are going with their "best tech" at the dealer on the PDI.  I have 45 years of construction background, from custom homes to heavy industrial, I wish them luck.
2009 Monaco Dynasty Regal IV
45ft., tag axle, ISM500
2016 Explorer toad

ZinLuvR

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2018, 08:16:31 PM »
Update.  PDI did not go well.  Coach was supposed to be ready Feb. 28Th for inspection, test drive and purchase.  We couldn't get there until the 7th of March.  9am for PDI.  Got there and was told to wait????  About 10 o'clock the PDI guy says a mirror fell off and it's on order, and also the fuel gauge isn't working right.  They have their best tech on it.  We go out to the bay and there must have been at least 6 people cleaning the coach.  ????  This was supposed to have been done on the 28th. ???  Start the PDI.  Get to the generator and the access door won't close.  And, the HWH levelers don't work. ???  Go inside, two mirrors have fallen off.  Touched a medallion on the cabinets and it falls off.  Test another medallion and it falls off.  To top it off, nothing on the outside was cleaned.  There was dust and dirt on everything.  The windshield wipers were acting strange.  ????  Everything we touched fell apart.  That was it, end of the PDI.  A complete joke.  Too bad, we toured the factory and "quality" was job one, over and over we heard this.  This is Winnebago in Junction City, Oregon.  The company that might start building Country Coaches again.  Last we heard the coach is back over at Freightliner for repairs.  Oh well.  Simple fixes to all this stuff, but it first has to start with someone that cares about what they're doing.  This could be the reason they are no longer building the Grand Tour, or the Tour.  That is info that we did not get from the dealer or the Winnebago reps.  I contacted Winnebago Ind. and asked about the production, and even they couldn't give me a straight answer, you had to read between the lines.  Bullcrap!  Too bad, could have been a great coach.  The new Horizon Line could be good, but check everything.  Like I said, I met the quality control engineer, and was told "quality" was job one.  Well, not in the case of the Grand Tour.  Everything was falling apart.
2009 Monaco Dynasty Regal IV
45ft., tag axle, ISM500
2016 Explorer toad

JSplaine

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2018, 09:04:39 PM »
Smart decision on your part to walk away. We meet a couple heading south for winter, they had a new Winnebago 40ft DP. There were 82 items on their list and Junction City could not tell them how long they would be there. Meet them in Palm Springs later and not all items had been repaired. We would never consider buying new just from the people we have met and their experience's.
2012 Allegro Red 38QRA
2010 CRV

A Traveler

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Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2018, 03:58:07 PM »
The horror stories posted here are why I would NEVER, EVER purchase a brand-new coach. All our purchases have been slightly used coaches. The previous owners had to deal with all the problems caused by the lack of quality control at the manufacturers.

Greg Gerberís 8-part dissertation on the RV Death Spiral makes the case that some of these quality control problems are our own fault. As long as we consumers accept and pay for the trouble-prone crap the industry produces, they have no incentive to improve.

How do we typically react when faced with a long punch list of problems? We wait...and wait...and wait...until the dealership calls and tells us itís all fixed...3 months later! Then, when we go to pick it up, many of the same problems are still there! And what do we do? Wait some more.

We would NEVER accept this kind of service and lack of quality in our cars. Why do we accept it in our motor homes?


Koodog

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  • Another Day in Paradise - Lyons, CO
Re: PDI-when to walk away
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2018, 07:57:38 AM »
The horror stories posted here are why I would NEVER, EVER purchase a brand-new coach. All our purchases have been slightly used coaches. The previous owners had to deal with all the problems caused by the lack of quality control at the manufacturers.

Greg Gerberís 8-part dissertation on the RV Death Spiral makes the case that some of these quality control problems are our own fault. As long as we consumers accept and pay for the trouble-prone crap the industry produces, they have no incentive to improve.

How do we typically react when faced with a long punch list of problems? We wait...and wait...and wait...until the dealership calls and tells us itís all fixed...3 months later! Then, when we go to pick it up, many of the same problems are still there! And what do we do? Wait some more.

We would NEVER accept this kind of service and lack of quality in our cars. Why do we accept it in our motor homes?

Agree X10!
It's very interesting to me how we tend to make excuses for those things we really want in life. I cannot count how many times I've read "RV's are not like cars, you can't expect the same quality"
I believe therein lies the real issue. We accept the unacceptable. We think our time is worth nothing. Simply put, we allow this.
Perhaps it's time for a change?

02 Rexhall 3550BSL
Triton V10 powered
2003 Jeep Liberty Toad
Walt & Terry Sanford