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Author Topic: 3 phase camp site wiring  (Read 1561 times)

w5kgt

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3 phase camp site wiring
« on: February 14, 2018, 07:42:38 AM »
I have a friend that has a RV campground that has 30 amp receptacle's. it has a 400 breaker box for the sites. two 100 amp breakers feeding the sites.
What wiring diagram do I need to convert these to 50 amp. Not sure how to figure the load factor for three phase. he has 50 sites. installing the 50, 30 20 amp pedatals.

Kevin
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:45:03 AM by w5kgt »
Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Electrician
Calhoun, La.

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donn

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 07:48:25 AM »
Wow!  You first off need to change the title  of your post.  RVs do not use 3 phase wiring.  Doing so could potientially kill people.  Have you searched the internet for RV electrical box wiring diagrams?  There posted everywhere.  Smart move would be to hire a certified electrician.  Which in most places is exactly what local ordinances will require.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:50:18 AM by donn »

kdbgoat

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 07:55:08 AM »
^X2^ on a qualified electrician. Not trying to hurt your feelings, or down you in any way, but if you have to ask that question, you really have no business taking on that project.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 08:39:39 AM »
Agree to the comments above. 

First, nothing you described implies that three-phase power is involved. Those 400A and 100A load centers (breaker boxes) are probably standard split phase, 120/240v panels.

Second, to get 50A. 120/240v service to a campsite, more and larger wires would need to be run to each site.  A 50A pedestal requires 6 gauge, 4-wire conductors to each, but the present 30A panels would have only 10 gauge 3-wire service.   Besides physically running the wires (underground or overhead), the sites need to have more actual power available.  Typically a 200A 120/240v load center would serve a max of 5 sites, each with 50A/40A/20A outlets. This campground does not have enough power in that 400A box to power more than 10 50A sites.  Actually, it doesn't have enough power for 50 x 30A sites either. If the campground is half full and each site is using a modest 20A, that is still a total of 500A load.
Gary
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w5kgt

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 10:43:05 AM »
Sorry about the confusion, I was half asleep.
What i need is some guidance on a campground that is already set up with three phase wiring.
I've done a bunch of single phase campgrounds but this is my first three phase. It has two 400 amp distribution panels with six three phase breaker slots in each. I could stop and do some research thru
NEC and figure it out.
But I was hoping someone has already wired a campground with three phase. Want to know the formula for a 3ph wiring on the sites between the three legs. I will be replacing everything with new wire and equipment.
Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Electrician
Calhoun, La.

2011 F-250 Lariat 6.2L Gas
Prowler 29'
Bunch of tents.

kdbgoat

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 10:51:57 AM »
Sorry, but again, my previous answer still stands.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


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w5kgt

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 11:30:43 AM »
Ok, I see I'll figure it myself. Been an electrician since 1975. Residential and comercial for about 15 years. Been a industrial electrician/maintenance guy for 25 years. Done a lot of installs from large sewage plants to banks, schools, and numerous other facilities.
I am perfectly qualified to do and kind of electrical work except hi-line work.

But I have never daisy chained a 3phase campground and was wondering if someone had already done one.
But I'll do my homework and do it myself.

Sorry for the inconvenience on this page.
Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Electrician
Calhoun, La.

2011 F-250 Lariat 6.2L Gas
Prowler 29'
Bunch of tents.

donn

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2018, 11:45:16 AM »
Ok, I see I'll figure it myself. Been an electrician since 1975. Residential and comercial for about 15 years. Been a industrial electrician/maintenance guy for 25 years. Done a lot of installs from large sewage plants to banks, schools, and numerous other facilities.
I am perfectly qualified to do and kind of electrical work except hi-line work.

But I have never daisy chained a 3phase campground and was wondering if someone had already done one.
But I'll do my homework and do it myself.

Sorry for the inconvenience on this page.

Then you should already know RVs do not have 3 phase power.  Heck, homes do not have 3 phase power.  3 phase is a commercial aplication.

rvpuller

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2018, 11:45:45 AM »
I think I know what you are saying you have and it would be a Y wired transformer giving you giving 3 equal legs of 120 volts and 208 across any two legs (a good way to check if you have a Y system), its common on some ground mounted transformers common in RV parks.

All you have to be concerned with is balancing the load between the phases. Look at your breaker and label them A,B and C, hook one set of power leads to A and B and the second two B and C and the third to C and A, that will give you 3 balanced circuits to feed your pedestals.

The other thing I did when wiring RV Parks was to reverse the line leads between pedestals to balance the load if you get a lot of RVs using 30 amp at one time, all pedestals are wired the same from the factory so all the 30 amp rec will end up on the same leg.

Denny

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 11:48:05 AM by rvpuller »
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NY_Dutch

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2018, 12:08:36 PM »
I highly recommend that you review the current NEC and any applicable state or local variations from it. Pay particular attention to "Article 551, Recreational Vehicles and Recreational Vehicle Parks." Your locality may require a licensed electrician as a minimum and possibly even a registered electrical engineer for the design of a public use system.
Dutch
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Hammster

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2018, 12:20:40 PM »
...Been an electrician since 1975. Residential and comercial for about 15 years. Been a industrial electrician/maintenance guy for 25 years. Done a lot of installs from large sewage plants to banks, schools, and numerous other facilities.
I am perfectly qualified to do and kind of electrical work except hi-line work.

But I have never daisy chained a 3phase campground and was wondering if someone had already done one...


I think had this information been in your OP this thread would have gone in a very different direction.
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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2018, 12:36:46 PM »
Then you should already know RVs do not have 3 phase power.  Heck, homes do not have 3 phase power.  3 phase is a commercial aplication.
The OP did not say that RVs have three phase power. He was asking about the wiring in a commercial RV park. The park itself is wired in three phase.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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w5kgt

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2018, 01:55:34 PM »
Yes, that's correct. I work for the Louisiana Park system. I'm out here now at a park doing electrical checks on all the buildings, lift stations, and campsites.

Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Electrician
Calhoun, La.

2011 F-250 Lariat 6.2L Gas
Prowler 29'
Bunch of tents.

kdbgoat

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2018, 02:30:29 PM »
I think had this information been in your OP this thread would have gone in a very different direction.

Yep.

The OP did not say that RVs have three phase power. He was asking about the wiring in a commercial RV park. The park itself is wired in three phase.

Yep.

I think I know what you are saying you have and it would be a Y wired transformer giving you giving 3 equal legs of 120 volts and 208 across any two legs (a good way to check if you have a Y system), its common on some ground mounted transformers common in RV parks.

All you have to be concerned with is balancing the load between the phases. Look at your breaker and label them A,B and C, hook one set of power leads to A and B and the second two B and C and the third to C and A, that will give you 3 balanced circuits to feed your pedestals.

The other thing I did when wiring RV Parks was to reverse the line leads between pedestals to balance the load if you get a lot of RVs using 30 amp at one time, all pedestals are wired the same from the factory so all the 30 amp rec will end up on the same leg.

Denny



Gary and Denny gave good advice.
Just check to make sure you don't have a delta with a 208 high leg.
Sorry I gave you such a hard time earlier. A lot of folks get on forums that don't have a clue about electricity except for replacing an outlet in their house, and try to do a project such as this and get themselves killed or kill someone else. That's why I hesitate to give advice and recommend a licensed electrician.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


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rls7201

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2018, 04:01:44 PM »
Ok, I see I'll figure it myself. Been an electrician since 1975. Residential and comercial for about 15 years. Been a industrial electrician/maintenance guy for 25 years. Done a lot of installs from large sewage plants to banks, schools, and numerous other facilities.
I am perfectly qualified to do and kind of electrical work except hi-line work.

But I have never daisy chained a 3phase campground and was wondering if someone had already done one.
But I'll do my homework and do it myself.

Sorry for the inconvenience on this page.

With all those qualification you should already understand that the only 3 phase that will work in a camp ground is 4 wire 208/120 3 phase.  Energy management systems in 50 amp coaches may not respond well to 208. In an case, make sure and balance the load on the 3 legs. You may want to consult a more qualified electrician, as camp grounds do not use 3 phase for RV hook up sites.

Richard
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w5kgt

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 05:10:13 PM »
With all those qualification you should already understand that the only 3 phase that will work in a camp ground is 4 wire 208/120 3 phase.  Energy management systems in 50 amp coaches may not respond well to 208. In an case, make sure and balance the load on the 3 legs. You may want to consult a more qualified electrician, as camp grounds do not use 3 phase for RV hook up sites.

This campground does have 3 phase and has 50, 30amp sites. He wants to up grade to the new 50,30,20 amp Pedestals.
Just thought I would bypass the load calculations by asking.
I'll do the math tonight and figure out how many sites will go on a 4/0 or 250mcm Al. 3phase line with a 225amp breaker.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:38:14 PM by Sun2Retire »
Kevin Thomas
Louisiana State Parks
Electrician
Calhoun, La.

2011 F-250 Lariat 6.2L Gas
Prowler 29'
Bunch of tents.

NY_Dutch

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 05:34:39 PM »
I'll do the math tonight and figure out how many sites will go on a 4/0 or 250mcm Al. 3phase line with a 225amp breaker.

Which is likely what you should have done in the first place, since anything you got on a public forum from folks with unknown qualifications would need to be independently verified anyway. You're certainly welcome to ask us to validate your calculations, but expecting us to do the work accurately for you in the first place is not a good idea when human lives and public safety are at risk.
Dutch
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TonyDtorch

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 05:47:22 PM »
Energy management systems in 50 amp coaches may not respond well to 208.
Richard

I could be wrong... but I don't think the 50 amp EMS systems ever looks at the two 120 phases as a 220 volt service, (or 208 in this case).

  Instead I think it sees them as two 50 amp 120 volt circuits,  as nothing in a motorhome is 220 vt.... so they can even be the same phase.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 05:53:34 PM by TonyDtorch »

rls7201

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2018, 06:07:27 PM »
I could be wrong... but I don't think the 50 amp EMS systems ever looks at the two 120 phases as a 220 volt service, (or 208 in this case).

  Instead I think it sees them as two 50 amp 120 volt circuits,  as nothing in a motorhome is 220 vt.... so they can even be the same phase.


2 out of faze 120 volt circuits (240 volts) is how the EMS determines weather the RV is on 30 or 50 amp service.

Richard
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TonyDtorch

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2018, 06:26:33 PM »
it will see 2 out of phase 120 volt circuits,   each one is capable of 50 amps to neutral.


rvpuller

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2018, 06:41:14 PM »
With all those qualification you should already understand that the only 3 phase that will work in a camp ground is 4 wire 208/120 3 phase.  Energy management systems in 50 amp coaches may not respond well to 208. In an case, make sure and balance the load on the 3 legs. You may want to consult a more qualified electrician, as camp grounds do not use 3 phase for RV hook up sites.

Richard

EMS systems monitor each leg for for 120 volts only, at my home base where we store the trailer I installed a 50 amp rec that only has one 20 amp 120 line to it and jumped the two lines together and the EMS can care less, same goes when when I use a 50 to 30 adapter.

Denny
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Tom

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2018, 06:47:53 PM »
Please, let's not give Kevin a tough time. He asked a question in good faith and got jumped on.
Tom.  Need help? Click the Help button in the toolbar above.

xrated

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2018, 07:06:24 PM »
I could be wrong... but I don't think the 50 amp EMS systems ever looks at the two 120 phases as a 220 volt service, (or 208 in this case).

  Instead I think it sees them as two 50 amp 120 volt circuits,  as nothing in a motorhome is 220 vt.... so they can even be the same phase.

Tony, you are NOT wrong.  The EMS is looking for 120V to neutral and out of phase hot legs, which of course is what a 3 Phase, 4 wire system would provide. 
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xrated

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2018, 07:17:15 PM »
w5kgt.......I've never wired a campground with 3 phase going to the pedestals....in fact, I've never wired a campground period, but I've been an Electrician for more years than I care to think about.  I'm guessing (because I've never done one), but it seems to me that the obvious way to distribute the loads (thus achieving some possibility of balanced loads) would be phase A and B to pedestal #1 (along with the neutral of course.  Phase B and C to pedestal #2 (again with the neutral), and then Phase A and C to the #3 pedestal (along with the neutral).  Pedestal #4 would then be the A to b, Pedestal #5 would be the B and C, and pedestal #6 would be the A and C.......and so on.  This would give you the best chance of balancing the distribution points.  Of course if there was let's say a camper in slot 1,4,7, and10 with no one in any of the others, all of the load would of course be on the A and B phases of the system....but that is pretty unlikely and unless the campground manager knew exactly how to stack the trailers so that some load equalization was taking place.  But even then, different camper are going to have different power requirements for their rig.

It's really not much different than wiring a 208, 3phase distribution panel in a light commercial setting.....you try to distribute the receptacle and lights equally across all three phases to neutral. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 07:23:27 PM by xrated »
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rvpuller

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2018, 08:36:07 PM »
w5kgt.......I've never wired a campground with 3 phase going to the pedestals....in fact, I've never wired a campground period, but I've been an Electrician for more years than I care to think about.  I'm guessing (because I've never done one), but it seems to me that the obvious way to distribute the loads (thus achieving some possibility of balanced loads) would be phase A and B to pedestal #1 (along with the neutral of course.  Phase B and C to pedestal #2 (again with the neutral), and then Phase A and C to the #3 pedestal (along with the neutral).  Pedestal #4 would then be the A to b, Pedestal #5 would be the B and C, and pedestal #6 would be the A and C.......and so on.  This would give you the best chance of balancing the distribution points.  Of course if there was let's say a camper in slot 1,4,7, and10 with no one in any of the others, all of the load would of course be on the A and B phases of the system....but that is pretty unlikely and unless the campground manager knew exactly how to stack the trailers so that some load equalization was taking place.  But even then, different camper are going to have different power requirements for their rig.

It's really not much different than wiring a 208, 3phase distribution panel in a light commercial setting.....you try to distribute the receptacle and lights equally across all three phases to neutral.

You are on the right track but i would wire multiple pedestals to each combination with a full size neutral (required by code to handle unbalanced loads) and a ground wire also required by code.

Denny
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TonyDtorch

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2018, 09:28:13 PM »
As far as I know for grounding,   every sub panel is also required to be bonded to it's own ground rod.

rvpuller

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2018, 10:05:37 PM »
As far as I know for grounding,   every sub panel is also required to be bonded to it's own ground rod.

Every subpanel is required to have a ground wire back to the man service panel bonded to the neutral that's bonded to a ground rod at that point only.

Denny
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xrated

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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 04:41:00 AM »
You are on the right track but i would wire multiple pedestals to each combination with a full size neutral (required by code to handle unbalanced loads) and a ground wire also required by code.

Denny

If I'm not mistaken, that's what I just said......other than mentioning the ground wire.....which is a given.
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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 08:55:16 AM »
There are two entierly different 3-phase systems. and you have not identifierd which is used.

Beyond that I would also suggest professional help... Professional help should know which sytem (Delta or Y are I THINK the names of the two systems) and how to wire them.  I do not.   Well perhaps I do know Y but I do not know if you have that.
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Re: 3 phase camp site wiring
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 10:14:34 AM »
Unless someone screwed up big time when they brought the 3 phase in, it's not going to be a Delta system.  With Delta there are no provisions for supplying 120 volt to neutral from all three phases.  In fact, in a normal Delta configuration there is no neutral wire coming from the transformer feed.  With a Wye configuration there are three phases and a neutral.  Voltage values are also different between the two systems.  Phase to phase on a Delta (in this application) would be 240 volts.   Phase to phase on a Wye system would be 208 volts.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 10:17:18 AM by xrated »
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