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Author Topic: Electric PU trucks  (Read 2194 times)

VallAndMo

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Electric PU trucks
« on: February 18, 2018, 03:53:22 AM »
Hello folks,

Have you seen the recently launched electric pickup trucks, for example the Workforce W-15 that became publicly available last month?

Workforce W-15 page: http://workhorse.com/pickup/
Via: http://www.tfltruck.com/2018/01/workhorse-w-15-now-available-general-public-pricing-news/

Granted, the stated capacities (2200lb payload, 5000lb towing) aren't enough to pull a heavy trailer, but the possibilities are tantalizing, specially considering that there's in theory nothing stopping them from offering heavier-duty models in the future:

- true 4WD with a *separate* electric motor for each wheel;

- built-in lithium battery pack that gives the truck an 80 miles all-electric range;

- built-in generator to charge the battery pack and/or power the electric motors (giving the truck an additional 310 mile range);

- power outlet on the side of the truck, providing up to 7.2kw / 30A for "electric tools" (they don't mention RV applications of course, but  I can envision how convenient that could be for a boondocking setup).

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
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   Vall.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:56:12 AM by VallAndMo »

John From Detroit

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 06:52:32 AM »
It is something to keep an eye on. the range and towing caspabilitied are a bit anremic at this time but I also note TESLA offer an all electric SEMI..

The concept of an on board generator to re-charge as you discharge is one I'm purposed for some time

So I think this is something to watch. I expect improvements in all anemic areas and soon.
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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 07:42:20 AM »
Elon Musk is working on an electric semi truck he says will redefine the industry. He has also said he will be building electric pickup trucks too. Electric vehicles are the future, we just need to cut the cable at the gas pump.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 08:17:43 AM »
I'm more skeptical than some of you. Electric motors are great for motive power and highly efficient in power consumption, but batteries are not a very effective way to carry large amounts of stored energy.  Gas or diesel has as much as 100x as much energy per lb vs a Lithium ion battery, so the fuel needed to move heavy loads or travel long distances is a much smaller portion of the vehicle's mass.  The good news is that electric power is about 4x-5x more energy efficient than internal combustion, so batteries don't need to be as highly energy dense as carbon fuels.   There are some other negatives, though.  Batteries are expensive, even when mass produced, and refueling (charging) a battery is slow.   At the present level of technology, electric vehicles remain most suitable for shorter distances or lighter loads and applications where quick refueling is not needed.

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201208/backpage.cfm

The most credible estimates suggest that batteries will not achieve comparable energy density with carbon fuels until somewhere around 2045, and even that is based on some as-yet-unknown breakthrough.  "Comparable energy density" is not measured strictly on energy/lb of stored fuel either.  Since an electric power train is 4x or 5x more efficient than an internal combustion engine power train,  the effective density has to be measured vs the power delivered to the wheels. This brief article explains that a bit.

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-density-parity-gasoline-2045/

Many medium and heavy trucks are employed in short haul (regional) applications and spend the night at a fleet yard or freight dock. Distances are not huge and refueling time and location is not a big concern. Further, a large truck can carry a big & heavy battery bank relatively easily.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:22:25 AM by Gary RV_Wizard »
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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 08:32:16 AM »
Yes there is some problems with adapting to electric vehicles, but nothing that technology cannot fix. As electric vehicles grow in popularity the infrastructure to service them will be put in place since there will be lots of money to be made. But the main point is we are running out of gasoline and it is a really bad actor in the first place so I don't see how it cannot be replaced.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 08:35:57 AM »
A seemingly simple solution would be a small engine running a generator to provide fuel-efficient charging while underway. That should extend range dramatically. I haven't been able to find any research or tech reports as to why this isn't being done. Nor does there seem to be any development going on to produce direct generation electric drive trains such as are used in diesel electric locomotives.  Apparently engineers & scientists have discarded both of those as potential solutions, but I can't find information as to why. Does anybody know of any sources on this?
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steveblonde

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 08:41:12 AM »
Electric trucks will appear? They are already here Chevy has been building them for years, all trains are electric - with a deisel generator, ferrari porche lambo mclaren all make them
But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE  - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space
But it makes asses like some hollywood tools look good in the public eye - there is still a lot of work to be done - fossel fuels arent going anywhere the USA is ramping up production in spite of Opec and will be one of the worlds biggest producers but the end of this year. Bigger than they already are.
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gwcowgill

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 08:44:29 AM »
Electric vehicles are very efficient as delivery vehicles where they are plugged in all night while being loaded. I like the on-board generator concept but remember battery weight takes away from payload. Not very efficient though if you have to run the generator on long distance runs.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 08:51:55 AM »
Quote
But the main point is we are running out of gasoline

Estimates vary widely depending on assumptions used, but proven reserves look to be at least 50 years worth. At higher prices, that number could go up substantially, since there is perhaps 300 years worth known to be in the ground and accessible if somebody would pay the price, tolerate the methods, etc.   

Note also that shifting to electric is not a petroleum-free lunch, nor pollution free either. About 65% of electricity is produced from carbon fuels, of which natural gas is the largest at about 34% of the total supply. Actual liquid petroleum is only about 1%, and coal is about 30%. We've got lots of coal, but it has its own set of nasty problems.
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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 08:55:36 AM »
Well there also has to be a conversion to solar cells for producing the electricity to power the electric cars. Technology will eventually make the batteries last so long that disposing of them will not  be a problem.
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steveblonde

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 09:03:17 AM »
There currently is more fossil fuel in the ground than we have used to date - dont worry we wont run out EVER but there is a need to become cleaner for everyone. The big automakers and oil companies have way too much at stake here
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 10:20:11 AM »
I'm not negative on electric-powered vehicles; just trying to be realistic about the future and the potential for use in any RV application.
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grashley

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 07:10:28 PM »
Gary,
Based on the theory that it takes X amount of energy to move a (semi) load a given (1500 miles) distance, and this now requires a large diesel motor to accomplish this feat, - internal combustion engine --> transmission --> power to wheels,  how can a MUCH smaller motor turn a generator shaft --> generate electricity -->  charge battery --> turn motors on wheels to accomplish the same thing?  While there are energy savings in "leveling" the load - level power production to the battery buffer - while more energy needed to start / accelerate a load and less energy to maintain speed, how does this make a major change in the total energy required to move the load??  For long OTR trucks, the amount of power available from the grid would be pretty small.  The generator must provide the rest.  I feel this is the real stumbling block for large loads and long distances.

I have a friend with a hot rod Tesla that accelerates like a rocket!  However, he must stop every 150 - 200 miles for nearly an hour to recharge, and this is for a nice passenger car!
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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 11:03:32 PM »
If the hype about the newest development in batteries is true, the electric/small generator vehicle will certainly be available in a few years.

Current battery technology is works well with hybrid vehicle like the Prius, and Volt and it is encouraging to see it being scaled up to greater payloads.

My grandkids will marvel that folks would actually use the old 8N Ford tractor in my shed. Of course I use to listen to my father-in-law talk about stream threshers. :) :)       

Lou Schneider

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 10:13:17 AM »
The biggest problem with wholesale adoption of electric vehicles will be updating and expanding the electric infrastructure to handle the power needed to recharge them.  This is not a trivial concern, it's taken over a hundred years to build up to the generating and distribution capacity we have now,  doubling it's capacity to fill in for the energy now being provided by hydrocarbon fuels won't be easy or cheap.

Off peak charging won't work, unless everyone agrees to give up travel and transport on hot days.  Or load sheds their air conditioning in favor of letting commerce continue.

Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed.  Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 10:23:40 AM by Lou Schneider »

jackiemac

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »
Whilst not a truck or normal passenger car, the guys on the Grand Tour had a couple of things to say about batteries and the car Hammond crashed burned for a long time and I think they said it was because of the batteries.  Can't find that specific clip from the show, but here is another viewpoint:


http://www.wheels24.co.za/Fuel_Focus/richard-hammonds-crash-why-did-his-ev-catch-fire-20170614
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Lou Schneider

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 11:00:50 AM »
Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range.  This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash.  So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.

SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 11:11:16 AM »
Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed.  Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.
That is an urban legend being pushed by the oil companies. Fuel taxes pay only a small percentage of those taxes. And a lot of states are currently addressing that situation by increasing other taxes.
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jackiemac

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »
Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range.  This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash.  So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.
They said the car was burning for a lot longer than they expected it to.  I will try and find the clip.  I thought it was really interesting and my OH is always moaning about the battery technology saying its not very good and definitely not very environmentally friendly.....
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Frank B

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 04:05:22 PM »
Steveblonde:


Quote
But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE  - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space


Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal?  Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!  ;D

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 11:29:30 AM »
There are many unusual and unique issues to be addressed when it comes to batteries power transportation. They can and will be addressed.

Who knows, maybe you will pull into a filling station, they open the hatches under the tail lights and pull out two five foot, 75 lb. oxygen bottle shaped batteries and slide in fresh ones in less time than it takes to fill my 26 gallon F-150 gas tank.

In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.

Be safe.

     

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 12:03:35 PM »
In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.


I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!  :o
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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »
I find the advances in transportation absolutely fascinating.   The power and efficiency of today's vehicles is amazing.  If the development of all vehicles, including electric and hybrids, advance as much in the next 20 years as it did in the last 20, it's really going to be amazing.  I hope I'm around to follow it. 

I hope more folks like Elon Musk will continue to "think out of the box".  I never thought he'd get this far, but he has and continues to create plenty of surprises.
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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »
In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.
Be safe.


I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!  :o

http://ktla.com/2014/07/27/exploding-manure-may-have-caused-fire-that-killed-horses-goats-in-palmdale/
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:14:40 PM by Oldgator73 »
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steveblonde

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 06:48:12 PM »
Steveblonde:



Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal?  Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!  ;D


Nope they cant its technical and i dont understand the whole process but google it something to do with too many chemical processes ? Sorry im not a chemical engineer, but from what i understand it stands to be a huge issue in the future
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 06:01:13 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?
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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 06:21:28 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?
The future of electric vehicles depends on an infrastructure based on solar cells providing the electricity to run the electric cars.
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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 06:22:57 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?

I would think as time goes on the battery situation will be resolved. Fossil fuels are a finite source of energy. It's going to run out. And the science is incontrovertible that burning fossil fuels is damaging the environment. Solar and wind are picking up momentum worldwide. As electric vehicles become more popular the manner in which they are charged and battery recycling procedures will undoubtedly evolve.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 06:27:24 AM »
Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'
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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 07:05:08 AM »
Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'

No coal is clean burning. The term "clean coal" refers to a process that cuts the emmisions produced from burning coal. The problem is the process is so expensive that only one coal plant in the States employs it.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2018, 07:27:31 AM »
My point was, how long and at what cost will the "As electric vehicles become more popular the manner in which they are charged and battery recycling procedures will undoubtedly evolve." take. Will it be the same as the "clean burning " coal?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant

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steveblonde

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2018, 07:34:48 AM »
All those Windmills are killing millions of honey bees, bats, and birds - so there is also a huge cost factor there.
Just adding my 2 cents lol
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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2018, 07:46:57 AM »
One of the major problems with LI technoogy is where it comes from.. Only two countries control the bulk of production  One is China and the other is not exporting to the US. and thanks to the new Tariff on Solar panels. China has limited it's exports as well.
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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2018, 08:21:20 AM »
All those Windmills are killing millions of honey bees, bats, and birds - so there is also a huge cost factor there.
Just adding my 2 cents lol

You are sort of correct. Wind turbines represent an insignificant fraction of the total number of bird fatalities caused by man-made objects or activities (e.g. Buildings, transmission lines, domestic cats). For every bird killed by a turbine, 5,820, on average, are killed striking buildings, typically glass windows. Although there are more buildings than wind turbines.
As for bats, they are susceptible to "barotrauma", a sense of disorientation  caused by the rapid change of air pressure created by turbines rotating blades.
Clearly bat, bee and bird assessments must be conducted as part of any application process. Wind farms must be located away from major migration routes and nesting areas.
It will get better. Wind technology, as a utility, is in it's infancy.
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jks

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2018, 08:27:53 AM »
That is an urban legend being pushed by the oil companies. Fuel taxes pay only a small percentage of those taxes. And a lot of states are currently addressing that situation by increasing other taxes.

The taxes on retail gasoline and diesel fuel, in cents per gallon, as of July 1, 2017:
Federal 18.40 for gas and 24.40 for Diesel. Average state taxes is 27.85 for gas and 28.62 for diesel. (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=5).
In my area that taxation amounts to about 25% of my fuel cost.
No idea though, of what percentage of the taxes really goes to maintain and building of roads and bridges. For all we know, the state taxes go to pay for pensions or mass transit.

To be fair, electric vehicles should be taxed at a similar consumption rate, perhaps by the mile and weight. Once someone figures out how to tax based on mileage usage of the roads, then the payback for electric trucks may not make economic sense.  Perhaps sending electric trucks into outer space may make more sense.

Oldgator73

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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2018, 08:41:53 AM »
The taxes on retail gasoline and diesel fuel, in cents per gallon, as of July 1, 2017:
Federal 18.40 for gas and 24.40 for Diesel. Average state taxes is 27.85 for gas and 28.62 for diesel. (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=5).
In my area that taxation amounts to about 25% of my fuel cost.
No idea though, of what percentage of the taxes really goes to maintain and building of roads and bridges. For all we know, the state taxes go to pay for pensions or mass transit.

To be fair, electric vehicles should be taxed at a similar consumption rate, perhaps by the mile and weight. Once someone figures out how to tax based on mileage usage of the roads, then the payback for electric trucks may not make economic sense.  Perhaps sending electric trucks into outer space may make more sense.

The lost tax revenue due to not buying petrol can be recouped by a similar tax when electric vehicles utilize charging stations. I was reading something on this subject the other day, it might have been a reply to this post, and someone said the day may come when the batteries for these cars may be able to be changed at fueling stations. You simply pull in and your depleted batteries are pulled out and recharged batteries are inserted. All in less time it takes to fuel a car or truck. The road tax would be added to the cost of the recharged batteries.
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Phrogman

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2018, 12:40:55 PM »
The greatness of Capitalism is the marketplace.  The market will decide unless the central planners start sticking their nose where it does not belong and start mandating usage and using taxation for behavior modification.

sadixon49

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2018, 03:38:49 PM »
Keep in mind, the best electric batteries currently in production are built for the Chevy Bolt. They hold 60Kw of energy, weigh about 1000#, weight is directly related to mpg,  and cost about $6000 when not supported by massive gov. subsidies. By contrast 60Kw of gasoline weighs about 10#, cost about $3.00, and equals about 1 1/2 gallon of gas.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2018, 04:00:29 PM »
Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.
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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2018, 04:51:38 PM »
Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.

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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2018, 04:55:44 PM »
Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.
No one is trying to convince you.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2018, 05:42:34 AM »
No one is trying to convince you.

Exactly. There's folks out there that keep touting electric vehicles, saying they are so much cleaner, so much safer for the environment, but when pressed,can't provide real world proven numbers to prove their point.
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SeilerBird

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2018, 05:50:09 AM »
For me I don't need real world numbers. It is painfully obvious to me that electrical power is a lot cleaner than burning dinosaurs. But in today's world of 'alternate facts' anything can be proven true or false so I am not listening to them. The people who are totally against it are all the people that own gas stations, convenience stores or otherwise have a financial interest in seeing gas live on forever. The people claiming it is better usually have a financial interest in seeing electricity succeed. I have no financial interest in either but clearly we will eventually run out of fossil fuels. That would be the wrong time to start thinking about a solution.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2018, 06:45:33 AM »
Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire! ;D I agree that some millenium from now, we will run out of dinosaurs, and also agree that we do need to think of alternatives. But for now, here's the breakdown of energy producers from the EIA as of 2016:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9%
Hydropower = 6.5%
Wind = 5.6%
Biomass = 1.5%
Solar  = 0.9%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

It looks like we will still have to burn a lot of dinosaurs to to generate the power needed to recharge the electric vehicles until things change for the better.
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But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant

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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2018, 08:27:41 AM »
Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire! ;D I agree that some millenium from now, we will run out of dinosaurs, and also agree that we do need to think of alternatives. But for now, here's the breakdown of energy producers from the EIA as of 2016:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9%
Hydropower = 6.5%
Wind = 5.6%
Biomass = 1.5%
Solar  = 0.9%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

It looks like we will still have to burn a lot of dinosaurs to to generate the power needed to recharge the electric vehicles until things change for the better.

Is it your position that we should not go forward with R&D of electric vehicles? Or is it your position that electric vehicles are not the panacea that some are saying they are. The vehicle itself is more clean burning. The manufacture process may not be but but we have to take baby steps. The same amount of fossil fuel is utilized to make a petrol vehicle that is used to make an electric vehicle. The savings, at this time, lay solely with the reduced one no emissions and elevated MPG. We have to take baby steps. Hybrid and all electric vehicles, in comparison with petrol vehicals, are in their infancy. Electric vehicles will not replace Peyton vehicles in our lifetime but I hope they do my grandkids lifetime.
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kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2018, 08:40:41 AM »
I'm saying people shouldn't running around saying the electric vehicles are cleaner and cheaper until all the factors are considered. Power still has to be generated to charge them, and it is taking fossil fuel for the majority of that. Our grid is strained as it is, and will also take a bit of upgrading.
Then there is the issue of battery recycling:

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037

Read section 2.3
No, I'm not saying electric vehicles shouldn't be developed, but people shouldn't act they are the cure for today's woes. I agree with the baby steps, but forethought needs to be done to develop solutions to upcoming problems along with that development, not just develop, then cry "what are we going to do now?" with the problems that have been created.
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blw2

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2018, 09:46:01 AM »
I'm late to the discussion...but it's one I find interesting.
I like the "idea" of electric cars....especially pick-up trucks since that's what I drive.
but I've never liked them for the reasons of "cleaner" or "the environment"

A friend of mine had a Nissan Leaf.  For some reason I just like the concept.  hard to put my finger on exactly why, since I don't for a minute buy the whole cleaner thing fully.  all the energy and pollution to produce and recycle the things, and to generate the electricity to run it....
but still.... I love the idea of not having to stop at gas stations so much, when most of my daily driving is rather short trips.  I like that they are quiet.  No oil changes (although surely there is some required maintenance....)

My ideal would be a plug-in hybrid...something with enough electric range to get me to and from work, or to the store.....but with an on-board generator to supplement for longer trips....and solar panels integral to the body to take advantage of all the time parked in the sun.  Maybe a wind turbine for use while parked....  :o
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gravesdiesel

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2018, 10:13:18 AM »
I am more in favor of renewable fuels like biodiesel so we can continue to use practical vehicles.  I have made some biodiesel in my shop that worked well, using cooking oil from a restaurant.  I would like to get into doing that again but would not want to run it in the newer trucks with the DPF/EGR emission systems.
Diesel/electric hybrids seem cool and are gaining popularity in Europe.  That may be an answer for the heavier loads, as it sure works well for many trains!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 10:15:41 AM by gravesdiesel »
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Lou Schneider

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2018, 10:56:46 AM »
The reason diesel-electric drive is used in train locomotives isn't efficiency, it's because it's impossible to build a mechanical transmission strong enough to start a mile long freight train from a dead stop.  It's been tried because once a train is up to speed, direct drive to the axles is more efficient than going through the diesel-electric double conversion (mechanical rotation to electrical, then electrical to mechanical rotation).

Both steam and diesel-electric have the advantage of generating maximum torque at 0 RPM, making them both well suited to start long trains while being directly coupled to the drive wheels.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:02:40 AM by Lou Schneider »

kdbgoat

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2018, 10:58:58 AM »
Not just diesel/electric trains using vegetable oil either. Check out Grand Canyon Railway Engine 4960.
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But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant

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Oldgator73

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2018, 12:52:49 PM »
I'm sure there were many arguments on both sides when the "horseless carriages" were first introduced. We have to be foreword thinking about technology. We have to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. We are going to run out, they are not finite. Now is as good a time as any to put $$$ into R&D for non petroleum based energy systems.
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Phrogman

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2018, 08:07:27 PM »
Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire!

Concur.  Just popped the cap of another Stella. 

Sam Bar

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2018, 06:59:32 PM »
Already been done. You pull into a filling station, pull out your batteries, put in fresh ones and you are on the way. Quicker than pumping gas. Just need to update the infrustructure.
I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!  :o
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RGP

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Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2018, 05:14:51 PM »
When I bring my 1947 8n Ford tractor in to the garage overnight, in the morning I am greeted with the nostalgic smell of unburnt gas, crank case vapors and a host of other odor long since removed from todays vehicles. That is a good thing.

Electric or electric/hybrid vehicles will sell because they are convenient. There will be minimal or no gas stops and oil changes, a robotic arm snakes its way from the wall or pops out of the floor to plug in and recharges your TV while you sleep.

I can think of nothing better than to step into my truck and say "take me to the skeet range" and when I get there tell it to park next to the red car. Or, if necessary, do it myself.   

Sure it is fun play with the old equipment and it gives you an appreciation for times past but I would not trade the reduced maintenance, increased durability and comfort of my 2010 F-150 for my old beloved 1955 Ford with three on the column.

We like to think that electric cars are good for the environment, are greener, less polluting etc, etc. However the real reason they will sell is because they will become far more convenient and cheaper than gas driven products.  I wonder how many remember washing machines powered by small gas engines or cranking your Aunts old "Victrola" to play a record and picking up the receiver as the operator says "Number Please."

Buck Rogers, Star Wars and Star Trek are peeking at us from just around the corner.