EPDM Coatings
rvupgradestore.com Composet Products Custom Yacht Interiors

Author Topic: Electric PU trucks  (Read 1858 times)

VallAndMo

  • ---
  • Posts: 548
  • Vall and Mo, a married couple getting ready for FT
Electric PU trucks
« on: February 18, 2018, 03:53:22 AM »
Hello folks,

Have you seen the recently launched electric pickup trucks, for example the Workforce W-15 that became publicly available last month?

Workforce W-15 page: http://workhorse.com/pickup/
Via: http://www.tfltruck.com/2018/01/workhorse-w-15-now-available-general-public-pricing-news/

Granted, the stated capacities (2200lb payload, 5000lb towing) aren't enough to pull a heavy trailer, but the possibilities are tantalizing, specially considering that there's in theory nothing stopping them from offering heavier-duty models in the future:

- true 4WD with a *separate* electric motor for each wheel;

- built-in lithium battery pack that gives the truck an 80 miles all-electric range;

- built-in generator to charge the battery pack and/or power the electric motors (giving the truck an additional 310 mile range);

- power outlet on the side of the truck, providing up to 7.2kw / 30A for "electric tools" (they don't mention RV applications of course, but  I can envision how convenient that could be for a boondocking setup).

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
--
   Vall.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:56:12 AM by VallAndMo »

John From Detroit

  • ---
  • Posts: 20702
  • ^My New Home^
    • Diabetics Forum
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 06:52:32 AM »
It is something to keep an eye on. the range and towing caspabilitied are a bit anremic at this time but I also note TESLA offer an all electric SEMI..

The concept of an on board generator to re-charge as you discharge is one I'm purposed for some time

So I think this is something to watch. I expect improvements in all anemic areas and soon.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 11857
  • Everything I state is my opinion.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 07:42:20 AM »
Elon Musk is working on an electric semi truck he says will redefine the industry. He has also said he will be building electric pickup trucks too. Electric vehicles are the future, we just need to cut the cable at the gas pump.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2017 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y0HbMU5KYa2hx02E3
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 63242
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 08:17:43 AM »
I'm more skeptical than some of you. Electric motors are great for motive power and highly efficient in power consumption, but batteries are not a very effective way to carry large amounts of stored energy.  Gas or diesel has as much as 100x as much energy per lb vs a Lithium ion battery, so the fuel needed to move heavy loads or travel long distances is a much smaller portion of the vehicle's mass.  The good news is that electric power is about 4x-5x more energy efficient than internal combustion, so batteries don't need to be as highly energy dense as carbon fuels.   There are some other negatives, though.  Batteries are expensive, even when mass produced, and refueling (charging) a battery is slow.   At the present level of technology, electric vehicles remain most suitable for shorter distances or lighter loads and applications where quick refueling is not needed.

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201208/backpage.cfm

The most credible estimates suggest that batteries will not achieve comparable energy density with carbon fuels until somewhere around 2045, and even that is based on some as-yet-unknown breakthrough.  "Comparable energy density" is not measured strictly on energy/lb of stored fuel either.  Since an electric power train is 4x or 5x more efficient than an internal combustion engine power train,  the effective density has to be measured vs the power delivered to the wheels. This brief article explains that a bit.

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-density-parity-gasoline-2045/

Many medium and heavy trucks are employed in short haul (regional) applications and spend the night at a fleet yard or freight dock. Distances are not huge and refueling time and location is not a big concern. Further, a large truck can carry a big & heavy battery bank relatively easily.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 08:22:25 AM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 11857
  • Everything I state is my opinion.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 08:32:16 AM »
Yes there is some problems with adapting to electric vehicles, but nothing that technology cannot fix. As electric vehicles grow in popularity the infrastructure to service them will be put in place since there will be lots of money to be made. But the main point is we are running out of gasoline and it is a really bad actor in the first place so I don't see how it cannot be replaced.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2017 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y0HbMU5KYa2hx02E3
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 63242
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2018, 08:35:57 AM »
A seemingly simple solution would be a small engine running a generator to provide fuel-efficient charging while underway. That should extend range dramatically. I haven't been able to find any research or tech reports as to why this isn't being done. Nor does there seem to be any development going on to produce direct generation electric drive trains such as are used in diesel electric locomotives.  Apparently engineers & scientists have discarded both of those as potential solutions, but I can't find information as to why. Does anybody know of any sources on this?
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

steveblonde

  • ---
  • Posts: 2520
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2018, 08:41:12 AM »
Electric trucks will appear? They are already here Chevy has been building them for years, all trains are electric - with a deisel generator, ferrari porche lambo mclaren all make them
But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE  - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space
But it makes asses like some hollywood tools look good in the public eye - there is still a lot of work to be done - fossel fuels arent going anywhere the USA is ramping up production in spite of Opec and will be one of the worlds biggest producers but the end of this year. Bigger than they already are.
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually loaded (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5167lbs cargo/weight capacity -DRKHORZ


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh

gwcowgill

  • ---
  • Posts: 2293
  • Retired USAF, Retired Auto Instructor Dade Cty Sch
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2018, 08:44:29 AM »
Electric vehicles are very efficient as delivery vehicles where they are plugged in all night while being loaded. I like the on-board generator concept but remember battery weight takes away from payload. Not very efficient though if you have to run the generator on long distance runs.
2009 Bounder 36B, 2014 Honda CR-V, various grandchildren when school is out. KG4LHS
2014 Honda CRV Toad,
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Toad

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 63242
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2018, 08:51:55 AM »
Quote
But the main point is we are running out of gasoline

Estimates vary widely depending on assumptions used, but proven reserves look to be at least 50 years worth. At higher prices, that number could go up substantially, since there is perhaps 300 years worth known to be in the ground and accessible if somebody would pay the price, tolerate the methods, etc.   

Note also that shifting to electric is not a petroleum-free lunch, nor pollution free either. About 65% of electricity is produced from carbon fuels, of which natural gas is the largest at about 34% of the total supply. Actual liquid petroleum is only about 1%, and coal is about 30%. We've got lots of coal, but it has its own set of nasty problems.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 11857
  • Everything I state is my opinion.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2018, 08:55:36 AM »
Well there also has to be a conversion to solar cells for producing the electricity to power the electric cars. Technology will eventually make the batteries last so long that disposing of them will not  be a problem.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2017 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y0HbMU5KYa2hx02E3
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

steveblonde

  • ---
  • Posts: 2520
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 09:03:17 AM »
There currently is more fossil fuel in the ground than we have used to date - dont worry we wont run out EVER but there is a need to become cleaner for everyone. The big automakers and oil companies have way too much at stake here
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually loaded (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5167lbs cargo/weight capacity -DRKHORZ


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 63242
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2018, 10:20:11 AM »
I'm not negative on electric-powered vehicles; just trying to be realistic about the future and the potential for use in any RV application.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

grashley

  • ---
  • Posts: 4500
  • Western KY for now.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2018, 07:10:28 PM »
Gary,
Based on the theory that it takes X amount of energy to move a (semi) load a given (1500 miles) distance, and this now requires a large diesel motor to accomplish this feat, - internal combustion engine --> transmission --> power to wheels,  how can a MUCH smaller motor turn a generator shaft --> generate electricity -->  charge battery --> turn motors on wheels to accomplish the same thing?  While there are energy savings in "leveling" the load - level power production to the battery buffer - while more energy needed to start / accelerate a load and less energy to maintain speed, how does this make a major change in the total energy required to move the load??  For long OTR trucks, the amount of power available from the grid would be pretty small.  The generator must provide the rest.  I feel this is the real stumbling block for large loads and long distances.

I have a friend with a hot rod Tesla that accelerates like a rocket!  However, he must stop every 150 - 200 miles for nearly an hour to recharge, and this is for a nice passenger car!
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

RGP

  • ---
  • Posts: 97
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2018, 11:03:32 PM »
If the hype about the newest development in batteries is true, the electric/small generator vehicle will certainly be available in a few years.

Current battery technology is works well with hybrid vehicle like the Prius, and Volt and it is encouraging to see it being scaled up to greater payloads.

My grandkids will marvel that folks would actually use the old 8N Ford tractor in my shed. Of course I use to listen to my father-in-law talk about stream threshers. :) :)       

Lou Schneider

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 8091
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 10:13:17 AM »
The biggest problem with wholesale adoption of electric vehicles will be updating and expanding the electric infrastructure to handle the power needed to recharge them.  This is not a trivial concern, it's taken over a hundred years to build up to the generating and distribution capacity we have now,  doubling it's capacity to fill in for the energy now being provided by hydrocarbon fuels won't be easy or cheap.

Off peak charging won't work, unless everyone agrees to give up travel and transport on hot days.  Or load sheds their air conditioning in favor of letting commerce continue.

Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed.  Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 10:23:40 AM by Lou Schneider »

jackiemac

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »
Whilst not a truck or normal passenger car, the guys on the Grand Tour had a couple of things to say about batteries and the car Hammond crashed burned for a long time and I think they said it was because of the batteries.  Can't find that specific clip from the show, but here is another viewpoint:


http://www.wheels24.co.za/Fuel_Focus/richard-hammonds-crash-why-did-his-ev-catch-fire-20170614
Jackie n Steve - Happy Scottish Travellers

2017 Heartland Sundance 288rls
2016 Dodge Ram 2500 6.4L Hemi

Travelling in US until 30th October 2018

Lou Schneider

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 8091
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2018, 11:00:50 AM »
Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range.  This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash.  So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 11857
  • Everything I state is my opinion.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 11:11:16 AM »
Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed.  Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.
That is an urban legend being pushed by the oil companies. Fuel taxes pay only a small percentage of those taxes. And a lot of states are currently addressing that situation by increasing other taxes.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2017 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y0HbMU5KYa2hx02E3
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

jackiemac

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 2504
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »
Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range.  This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash.  So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.
They said the car was burning for a lot longer than they expected it to.  I will try and find the clip.  I thought it was really interesting and my OH is always moaning about the battery technology saying its not very good and definitely not very environmentally friendly.....
Jackie n Steve - Happy Scottish Travellers

2017 Heartland Sundance 288rls
2016 Dodge Ram 2500 6.4L Hemi

Travelling in US until 30th October 2018

Frank B

  • ---
  • Posts: 928
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 04:05:22 PM »
Steveblonde:


Quote
But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE  - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space


Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal?  Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!  ;D

Linux:  Free, open, elegant.
06 GMC 3500 Duramax crew/long pulling 2010 Arctic Fox 30U with 1700 lb Reese Titan Class 5.
1.2 kw solar

RGP

  • ---
  • Posts: 97
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 11:29:30 AM »
There are many unusual and unique issues to be addressed when it comes to batteries power transportation. They can and will be addressed.

Who knows, maybe you will pull into a filling station, they open the hatches under the tail lights and pull out two five foot, 75 lb. oxygen bottle shaped batteries and slide in fresh ones in less time than it takes to fill my 26 gallon F-150 gas tank.

In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.

Be safe.

     

Joezeppy

  • ---
  • Posts: 1794
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 12:03:35 PM »
In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.


I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!  :o
Joe & Kim
Upstate NY - Kuyahoora Valley
2010 GMC Sierra 2500HD - 6.0L
2017 Keystone Hideout 295BHS
Andersen Ultimate Aluminum 5th wheel hitch

BigLarry

  • ---
  • Posts: 838
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »
I find the advances in transportation absolutely fascinating.   The power and efficiency of today's vehicles is amazing.  If the development of all vehicles, including electric and hybrids, advance as much in the next 20 years as it did in the last 20, it's really going to be amazing.  I hope I'm around to follow it. 

I hope more folks like Elon Musk will continue to "think out of the box".  I never thought he'd get this far, but he has and continues to create plenty of surprises.
Larry and Betty
Bryan, Texas
2017 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4x4 Diesel
2016 Cougar 28RLS

Oldgator73

  • ---
  • Posts: 620
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »
In recent times, the only non-human powered  transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.
Be safe.


I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!  :o

http://ktla.com/2014/07/27/exploding-manure-may-have-caused-fire-that-killed-horses-goats-in-palmdale/
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 06:14:40 PM by Oldgator73 »
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier

steveblonde

  • ---
  • Posts: 2520
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2018, 06:48:12 PM »
Steveblonde:



Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal?  Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!  ;D


Nope they cant its technical and i dont understand the whole process but google it something to do with too many chemical processes ? Sorry im not a chemical engineer, but from what i understand it stands to be a huge issue in the future
2015 Voltage 3305 Toy Hauler - loaded
2017 Ford Escape my Daily driver - first Ford in 25 yrs
2017 Black on Black F350 Diesel Dually loaded (First Ford Truck after 17 GMs) 5167lbs cargo/weight capacity -DRKHORZ


" If you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space"
From Canada Eh

kdbgoat

  • ---
  • Posts: 5222
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 06:01:13 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 11857
  • Everything I state is my opinion.
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2018, 06:21:28 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?
The future of electric vehicles depends on an infrastructure based on solar cells providing the electricity to run the electric cars.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2017 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/y0HbMU5KYa2hx02E3
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

Oldgator73

  • ---
  • Posts: 620
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2018, 06:22:57 AM »
I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?

I would think as time goes on the battery situation will be resolved. Fossil fuels are a finite source of energy. It's going to run out. And the science is incontrovertible that burning fossil fuels is damaging the environment. Solar and wind are picking up momentum worldwide. As electric vehicles become more popular the manner in which they are charged and battery recycling procedures will undoubtedly evolve.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier

kdbgoat

  • ---
  • Posts: 5222
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2018, 06:27:24 AM »
Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Oldgator73

  • ---
  • Posts: 620
Re: Electric PU trucks
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2018, 07:05:08 AM »
Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'

No coal is clean burning. The term "clean coal" refers to a process that cuts the emmisions produced from burning coal. The problem is the process is so expensive that only one coal plant in the States employs it.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier