Author Topic: Electric PU trucks (Read 1588 times)

VallAndMo · « **on:** February 18, 2018, 03:53:22 AM »

Hello folks,

Have you seen the recently launched electric pickup trucks, for example the Workforce W-15 that became publicly available last month?

Workforce W-15 page: http://workhorse.com/pickup/
Via: http://www.tfltruck.com/2018/01/workhorse-w-15-now-available-general-public-pricing-news/

Granted, the stated capacities (2200lb payload, 5000lb towing) aren't enough to pull a heavy trailer, but the possibilities are tantalizing, specially considering that there's in theory nothing stopping them from offering heavier-duty models in the future:

- true 4WD with a *separate* electric motor for each wheel;

- built-in lithium battery pack that gives the truck an 80 miles all-electric range;

- built-in generator to charge the battery pack and/or power the electric motors (giving the truck an additional 310 mile range);

- power outlet on the side of the truck, providing up to 7.2kw / 30A for "electric tools" (they don't mention RV applications of course, but I can envision how convenient that could be for a boondocking setup).

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
--
Vall.

John From Detroit · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2018, 06:52:32 AM »

It is something to keep an eye on. the range and towing caspabilitied are a bit anremic at this time but I also note TESLA offer an all electric SEMI..

The concept of an on board generator to re-charge as you discharge is one I'm purposed for some time

So I think this is something to watch. I expect improvements in all anemic areas and soon.

SeilerBird · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2018, 07:42:20 AM »

Elon Musk is working on an electric semi truck he says will redefine the industry. He has also said he will be building electric pickup trucks too. Electric vehicles are the future, we just need to cut the cable at the gas pump.

Gary RV_Wizard · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:17:43 AM »

I'm more skeptical than some of you. Electric motors are great for motive power and highly efficient in power consumption, but batteries are not a very effective way to carry large amounts of stored energy. Gas or diesel has as much as 100x as much energy per lb vs a Lithium ion battery, so the fuel needed to move heavy loads or travel long distances is a much smaller portion of the vehicle's mass. The good news is that electric power is about 4x-5x more energy efficient than internal combustion, so batteries don't need to be as highly energy dense as carbon fuels. There are some other negatives, though. Batteries are expensive, even when mass produced, and refueling (charging) a battery is slow. At the present level of technology, electric vehicles remain most suitable for shorter distances or lighter loads and applications where quick refueling is not needed.

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201208/backpage.cfm

The most credible estimates suggest that batteries will not achieve comparable energy density with carbon fuels until somewhere around 2045, and even that is based on some as-yet-unknown breakthrough. "Comparable energy density" is not measured strictly on energy/lb of stored fuel either. Since an electric power train is 4x or 5x more efficient than an internal combustion engine power train, the effective density has to be measured vs the power delivered to the wheels. This brief article explains that a bit.

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/13/ev-battery-energy-density-parity-gasoline-2045/

Many medium and heavy trucks are employed in short haul (regional) applications and spend the night at a fleet yard or freight dock. Distances are not huge and refueling time and location is not a big concern. Further, a large truck can carry a big & heavy battery bank relatively easily.

SeilerBird · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:32:16 AM »

Yes there is some problems with adapting to electric vehicles, but nothing that technology cannot fix. As electric vehicles grow in popularity the infrastructure to service them will be put in place since there will be lots of money to be made. But the main point is we are running out of gasoline and it is a really bad actor in the first place so I don't see how it cannot be replaced.

Gary RV_Wizard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:35:57 AM »

A seemingly simple solution would be a small engine running a generator to provide fuel-efficient charging while underway. That should extend range dramatically. I haven't been able to find any research or tech reports as to why this isn't being done. Nor does there seem to be any development going on to produce direct generation electric drive trains such as are used in diesel electric locomotives. Apparently engineers & scientists have discarded both of those as potential solutions, but I can't find information as to why. Does anybody know of any sources on this?

steveblonde · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:41:12 AM »

Electric trucks will appear? They are already here Chevy has been building them for years, all trains are electric - with a deisel generator, ferrari porche lambo mclaren all make them
But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space
But it makes asses like some hollywood tools look good in the public eye - there is still a lot of work to be done - fossel fuels arent going anywhere the USA is ramping up production in spite of Opec and will be one of the worlds biggest producers but the end of this year. Bigger than they already are.

gwcowgill · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:44:29 AM »

Electric vehicles are very efficient as delivery vehicles where they are plugged in all night while being loaded. I like the on-board generator concept but remember battery weight takes away from payload. Not very efficient though if you have to run the generator on long distance runs.

Gary RV_Wizard · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:51:55 AM »

Quote

But the main point is we are running out of gasoline

Estimates vary widely depending on assumptions used, but proven reserves look to be at least 50 years worth. At higher prices, that number could go up substantially, since there is perhaps 300 years worth known to be in the ground and accessible if somebody would pay the price, tolerate the methods, etc.

Note also that shifting to electric is not a petroleum-free lunch, nor pollution free either. About 65% of electricity is produced from carbon fuels, of which natural gas is the largest at about 34% of the total supply. Actual liquid petroleum is only about 1%, and coal is about 30%. We've got lots of coal, but it has its own set of nasty problems.

SeilerBird · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2018, 08:55:36 AM »

Well there also has to be a conversion to solar cells for producing the electricity to power the electric cars. Technology will eventually make the batteries last so long that disposing of them will not be a problem.

steveblonde · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2018, 09:03:17 AM »

There currently is more fossil fuel in the ground than we have used to date - dont worry we wont run out EVER but there is a need to become cleaner for everyone. The big automakers and oil companies have way too much at stake here

Gary RV_Wizard · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2018, 10:20:11 AM »

I'm not negative on electric-powered vehicles; just trying to be realistic about the future and the potential for use in any RV application.

grashley · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2018, 07:10:28 PM »

Gary,
Based on the theory that it takes X amount of energy to move a (semi) load a given (1500 miles) distance, and this now requires a large diesel motor to accomplish this feat, - internal combustion engine --> transmission --> power to wheels, how can a MUCH smaller motor turn a generator shaft --> generate electricity --> charge battery --> turn motors on wheels to accomplish the same thing? While there are energy savings in "leveling" the load - level power production to the battery buffer - while more energy needed to start / accelerate a load and less energy to maintain speed, how does this make a major change in the total energy required to move the load?? For long OTR trucks, the amount of power available from the grid would be pretty small. The generator must provide the rest. I feel this is the real stumbling block for large loads and long distances.

I have a friend with a hot rod Tesla that accelerates like a rocket! However, he must stop every 150 - 200 miles for nearly an hour to recharge, and this is for a nice passenger car!

RGP · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2018, 11:03:32 PM »

If the hype about the newest development in batteries is true, the electric/small generator vehicle will certainly be available in a few years.

Current battery technology is works well with hybrid vehicle like the Prius, and Volt and it is encouraging to see it being scaled up to greater payloads.

My grandkids will marvel that folks would actually use the old 8N Ford tractor in my shed. Of course I use to listen to my father-in-law talk about stream threshers.

Lou Schneider · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2018, 10:13:17 AM »

The biggest problem with wholesale adoption of electric vehicles will be updating and expanding the electric infrastructure to handle the power needed to recharge them. This is not a trivial concern, it's taken over a hundred years to build up to the generating and distribution capacity we have now, doubling it's capacity to fill in for the energy now being provided by hydrocarbon fuels won't be easy or cheap.

Off peak charging won't work, unless everyone agrees to give up travel and transport on hot days. Or load sheds their air conditioning in favor of letting commerce continue.

Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed. Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.

jackiemac · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2018, 10:34:47 AM »

Whilst not a truck or normal passenger car, the guys on the Grand Tour had a couple of things to say about batteries and the car Hammond crashed burned for a long time and I think they said it was because of the batteries. Can't find that specific clip from the show, but here is another viewpoint:

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Fuel_Focus/richard-hammonds-crash-why-did-his-ev-catch-fire-20170614

Lou Schneider · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2018, 11:00:50 AM »

Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range. This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash. So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.

SeilerBird · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2018, 11:11:16 AM »

Quote from: Lou Schneider on February 19, 2018, 10:13:17 AM

Taxes for road maintenance will also have to be addressed. Right now electric vehicles are getting a free ride on the roads, they contribute just as much congestion and wear as a gas powered vehicle but they aren't paying the fuel taxes that build and maintain them.

That is an urban legend being pushed by the oil companies. Fuel taxes pay only a small percentage of those taxes. And a lot of states are currently addressing that situation by increasing other taxes.

jackiemac · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2018, 12:21:36 PM »

Quote from: Lou Schneider on February 19, 2018, 11:00:50 AM

Electric cars carry the same amount of stored energy as a petroleum car with the same range. This energy can be released in a controlled manner, to propel the car down the road, or in an uncontrolled manner during a crash. So yes, an electric car can catch fire in a crash just like a fuel powered car.

They said the car was burning for a lot longer than they expected it to. I will try and find the clip. I thought it was really interesting and my OH is always moaning about the battery technology saying its not very good and definitely not very environmentally friendly.....

Frank B · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2018, 04:05:22 PM »

Steveblonde:

Quote

But the bigger issue what to do with the batteries -THEY ARE AN ENVIONONMENTAL NIGHTMARE - they cannot dispose of them without causing a castastrophy, they are so toxic they cant bury them burn them incinerate them or send them to space

Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal? Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!

RGP · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2018, 11:29:30 AM »

There are many unusual and unique issues to be addressed when it comes to batteries power transportation. They can and will be addressed.

Who knows, maybe you will pull into a filling station, they open the hatches under the tail lights and pull out two five foot, 75 lb. oxygen bottle shaped batteries and slide in fresh ones in less time than it takes to fill my 26 gallon F-150 gas tank.

In recent times, the only non-human powered transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.

Be safe.

Joezeppy · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2018, 12:03:35 PM »

Quote from: RGP on February 20, 2018, 11:29:30 AM

In recent times, the only non-human powered transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.

I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!

BigLarry · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2018, 04:22:56 PM »

I find the advances in transportation absolutely fascinating. The power and efficiency of today's vehicles is amazing. If the development of all vehicles, including electric and hybrids, advance as much in the next 20 years as it did in the last 20, it's really going to be amazing. I hope I'm around to follow it.

I hope more folks like Elon Musk will continue to "think out of the box". I never thought he'd get this far, but he has and continues to create plenty of surprises.

Oldgator73 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 20, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »

Quote from: RGP on February 20, 2018, 11:29:30 AM

In recent times, the only non-human powered transportation vehicle that I know of that will not explode or catch fire in a crash, are the horses the Amish use to pull their buggies.
Be safe.

Quote from: Joezeppy on February 20, 2018, 12:03:35 PM

I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car!

http://ktla.com/2014/07/27/exploding-manure-may-have-caused-fire-that-killed-horses-goats-in-palmdale/

steveblonde · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2018, 06:48:12 PM »

Quote from: Frank B on February 19, 2018, 04:05:22 PM

Steveblonde:

Can they not be re-refined, just like any other metal? Lithium batteries have to be the richest 'ore' on the planet!

Nope they cant its technical and i dont understand the whole process but google it something to do with too many chemical processes ? Sorry im not a chemical engineer, but from what i understand it stands to be a huge issue in the future

kdbgoat · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2018, 06:01:13 AM »

I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?

SeilerBird · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2018, 06:21:28 AM »

Quote from: kdbgoat on February 21, 2018, 06:01:13 AM

I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?

The future of electric vehicles depends on an infrastructure based on solar cells providing the electricity to run the electric cars.

Oldgator73 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 21, 2018, 06:22:57 AM »

Quote from: kdbgoat on February 21, 2018, 06:01:13 AM

I have a question. I looked online, and there were 236.6 million registered vehicles in the USA in 2015. Now, suppose 10%, 23.6 million were electric. How much pollution would overallwould would not be created by using electric vehicles over dino fueled vehicles? A currently made auto can now be pretty close to 100% recyclable. From what I'm reading here, there's a disposal issue with the lithium batteries? Next, the "grid" barely handles what we are running now electricity wise. How will it support charging all these vehicles? How much more pollution will power plants be putting out?

I would think as time goes on the battery situation will be resolved. Fossil fuels are a finite source of energy. It's going to run out. And the science is incontrovertible that burning fossil fuels is damaging the environment. Solar and wind are picking up momentum worldwide. As electric vehicles become more popular the manner in which they are charged and battery recycling procedures will undoubtedly evolve.

kdbgoat · « **Reply #28 on:** February 21, 2018, 06:27:24 AM »

Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'

Oldgator73 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 21, 2018, 07:05:08 AM »

Quote from: kdbgoat on February 21, 2018, 06:27:24 AM

Clean burning coal has evolved. Just sayin'

No coal is clean burning. The term "clean coal" refers to a process that cuts the emmisions produced from burning coal. The problem is the process is so expensive that only one coal plant in the States employs it.

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Author Topic: Electric PU trucks (Read 1588 times)