Electric PU trucks

[kdbgoat]

My point was, how long and at what cost will the "As electric vehicles become more popular the manner in which they are charged and battery recycling procedures will undoubtedly evolve." take. Will it be the same as the "clean burning " coal?

[steveblonde]

All those Windmills are killing millions of honey bees, bats, and birds - so there is also a huge cost factor there.
Just adding my 2 cents lol

[John From Detroit]

One of the major problems with LI technoogy is where it comes from.. Only two countries control the bulk of production  One is China and the other is not exporting to the US. and thanks to the new Tariff on Solar panels. China has limited it's exports as well.

[Oldgator73]

All those Windmills are killing millions of honey bees, bats, and birds - so there is also a huge cost factor there.
Just adding my 2 cents lol

You are sort of correct. Wind turbines represent an insignificant fraction of the total number of bird fatalities caused by man-made objects or activities (e.g. Buildings, transmission lines, domestic cats). For every bird killed by a turbine, 5,820, on average, are killed striking buildings, typically glass windows. Although there are more buildings than wind turbines.
As for bats, they are susceptible to "barotrauma", a sense of disorientation  caused by the rapid change of air pressure created by turbines rotating blades.
Clearly bat, bee and bird assessments must be conducted as part of any application process. Wind farms must be located away from major migration routes and nesting areas.
It will get better. Wind technology, as a utility, is in it's infancy.

[jks]

That is an urban legend being pushed by the oil companies. Fuel taxes pay only a small percentage of those taxes. And a lot of states are currently addressing that situation by increasing other taxes.

The taxes on retail gasoline and diesel fuel, in cents per gallon, as of July 1, 2017:
Federal 18.40 for gas and 24.40 for Diesel. Average state taxes is 27.85 for gas and 28.62 for diesel. (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=5).
In my area that taxation amounts to about 25% of my fuel cost.
No idea though, of what percentage of the taxes really goes to maintain and building of roads and bridges. For all we know, the state taxes go to pay for pensions or mass transit.

To be fair, electric vehicles should be taxed at a similar consumption rate, perhaps by the mile and weight. Once someone figures out how to tax based on mileage usage of the roads, then the payback for electric trucks may not make economic sense.  Perhaps sending electric trucks into outer space may make more sense.

[Oldgator73]

http://www.greenmatters.com/living/2017/08/31/ZHQvPu/solar-rv

[Oldgator73]

The taxes on retail gasoline and diesel fuel, in cents per gallon, as of July 1, 2017:
Federal 18.40 for gas and 24.40 for Diesel. Average state taxes is 27.85 for gas and 28.62 for diesel. (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=10&t=5).
In my area that taxation amounts to about 25% of my fuel cost.
No idea though, of what percentage of the taxes really goes to maintain and building of roads and bridges. For all we know, the state taxes go to pay for pensions or mass transit.

To be fair, electric vehicles should be taxed at a similar consumption rate, perhaps by the mile and weight. Once someone figures out how to tax based on mileage usage of the roads, then the payback for electric trucks may not make economic sense.  Perhaps sending electric trucks into outer space may make more sense.

The lost tax revenue due to not buying petrol can be recouped by a similar tax when electric vehicles utilize charging stations. I was reading something on this subject the other day, it might have been a reply to this post, and someone said the day may come when the batteries for these cars may be able to be changed at fueling stations. You simply pull in and your depleted batteries are pulled out and recharged batteries are inserted. All in less time it takes to fuel a car or truck. The road tax would be added to the cost of the recharged batteries.

[Phrogman]

The greatness of Capitalism is the marketplace.  The market will decide unless the central planners start sticking their nose where it does not belong and start mandating usage and using taxation for behavior modification.

[sadixon49]

Keep in mind, the best electric batteries currently in production are built for the Chevy Bolt. They hold 60Kw of energy, weigh about 1000#, weight is directly related to mpg,  and cost about $6000 when not supported by massive gov. subsidies. By contrast 60Kw of gasoline weighs about 10#, cost about $3.00, and equals about 1 1/2 gallon of gas.

[kdbgoat]

Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.

[Oldgator73]

Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.

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[SeilerBird]

Nobody has convinced me yet, at today's technological point that electric vehicles are cleaner than the dino killers. Come on, somebody show me the numbers.

No one is trying to convince you.

[kdbgoat]

No one is trying to convince you.

Exactly. There's folks out there that keep touting electric vehicles, saying they are so much cleaner, so much safer for the environment, but when pressed,can't provide real world proven numbers to prove their point.

[SeilerBird]

For me I don't need real world numbers. It is painfully obvious to me that electrical power is a lot cleaner than burning dinosaurs. But in today's world of 'alternate facts' anything can be proven true or false so I am not listening to them. The people who are totally against it are all the people that own gas stations, convenience stores or otherwise have a financial interest in seeing gas live on forever. The people claiming it is better usually have a financial interest in seeing electricity succeed. I have no financial interest in either but clearly we will eventually run out of fossil fuels. That would be the wrong time to start thinking about a solution.

[kdbgoat]

Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire! I agree that some millenium from now, we will run out of dinosaurs, and also agree that we do need to think of alternatives. But for now, here's the breakdown of energy producers from the EIA as of 2016:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9%
Hydropower = 6.5%
Wind = 5.6%
Biomass = 1.5%
Solar  = 0.9%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

It looks like we will still have to burn a lot of dinosaurs to to generate the power needed to recharge the electric vehicles until things change for the better.

[Oldgator73]

Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire! I agree that some millenium from now, we will run out of dinosaurs, and also agree that we do need to think of alternatives. But for now, here's the breakdown of energy producers from the EIA as of 2016:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9%
Hydropower = 6.5%
Wind = 5.6%
Biomass = 1.5%
Solar  = 0.9%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4

It looks like we will still have to burn a lot of dinosaurs to to generate the power needed to recharge the electric vehicles until things change for the better.

Is it your position that we should not go forward with R&D of electric vehicles? Or is it your position that electric vehicles are not the panacea that some are saying they are. The vehicle itself is more clean burning. The manufacture process may not be but but we have to take baby steps. The same amount of fossil fuel is utilized to make a petrol vehicle that is used to make an electric vehicle. The savings, at this time, lay solely with the reduced one no emissions and elevated MPG. We have to take baby steps. Hybrid and all electric vehicles, in comparison with petrol vehicals, are in their infancy. Electric vehicles will not replace Peyton vehicles in our lifetime but I hope they do my grandkids lifetime.

[kdbgoat]

I'm saying people shouldn't running around saying the electric vehicles are cleaner and cheaper until all the factors are considered. Power still has to be generated to charge them, and it is taking fossil fuel for the majority of that. Our grid is strained as it is, and will also take a bit of upgrading.
Then there is the issue of battery recycling:

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037

Read section 2.3
No, I'm not saying electric vehicles shouldn't be developed, but people shouldn't act they are the cure for today's woes. I agree with the baby steps, but forethought needs to be done to develop solutions to upcoming problems along with that development, not just develop, then cry "what are we going to do now?" with the problems that have been created.

[blw2]

I'm late to the discussion...but it's one I find interesting.
I like the "idea" of electric cars....especially pick-up trucks since that's what I drive.
but I've never liked them for the reasons of "cleaner" or "the environment"

A friend of mine had a Nissan Leaf.  For some reason I just like the concept.  hard to put my finger on exactly why, since I don't for a minute buy the whole cleaner thing fully.  all the energy and pollution to produce and recycle the things, and to generate the electricity to run it....
but still.... I love the idea of not having to stop at gas stations so much, when most of my daily driving is rather short trips.  I like that they are quiet.  No oil changes (although surely there is some required maintenance....)

My ideal would be a plug-in hybrid...something with enough electric range to get me to and from work, or to the store.....but with an on-board generator to supplement for longer trips....and solar panels integral to the body to take advantage of all the time parked in the sun.  Maybe a wind turbine for use while parked.... 

[gravesdiesel]

I am more in favor of renewable fuels like biodiesel so we can continue to use practical vehicles.  I have made some biodiesel in my shop that worked well, using cooking oil from a restaurant.  I would like to get into doing that again but would not want to run it in the newer trucks with the DPF/EGR emission systems.
Diesel/electric hybrids seem cool and are gaining popularity in Europe.  That may be an answer for the heavier loads, as it sure works well for many trains!

[Lou Schneider]

The reason diesel-electric drive is used in train locomotives isn't efficiency, it's because it's impossible to build a mechanical transmission strong enough to start a mile long freight train from a dead stop.  It's been tried because once a train is up to speed, direct drive to the axles is more efficient than going through the diesel-electric double conversion (mechanical rotation to electrical, then electrical to mechanical rotation).

Both steam and diesel-electric have the advantage of generating maximum torque at 0 RPM, making them both well suited to start long trains while being directly coupled to the drive wheels.

[kdbgoat]

Not just diesel/electric trains using vegetable oil either. Check out Grand Canyon Railway Engine 4960.

[Oldgator73]

I'm sure there were many arguments on both sides when the "horseless carriages" were first introduced. We have to be foreword thinking about technology. We have to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels. We are going to run out, they are not finite. Now is as good a time as any to put $$$ into R&D for non petroleum based energy systems.

[Phrogman]

Boy, I bet you and I could have some great discussions around a campfire!

Concur.  Just popped the cap of another Stella. 

[Sam Bar]

Already been done. You pull into a filling station, pull out your batteries, put in fresh ones and you are on the way. Quicker than pumping gas. Just need to update the infrustructure.
I always seem to drive through their "exhaust" right after I've washed the car! 

[RGP]

When I bring my 1947 8n Ford tractor in to the garage overnight, in the morning I am greeted with the nostalgic smell of unburnt gas, crank case vapors and a host of other odor long since removed from todays vehicles. That is a good thing.

Electric or electric/hybrid vehicles will sell because they are convenient. There will be minimal or no gas stops and oil changes, a robotic arm snakes its way from the wall or pops out of the floor to plug in and recharges your TV while you sleep.

I can think of nothing better than to step into my truck and say "take me to the skeet range" and when I get there tell it to park next to the red car. Or, if necessary, do it myself.   

Sure it is fun play with the old equipment and it gives you an appreciation for times past but I would not trade the reduced maintenance, increased durability and comfort of my 2010 F-150 for my old beloved 1955 Ford with three on the column.

We like to think that electric cars are good for the environment, are greener, less polluting etc, etc. However the real reason they will sell is because they will become far more convenient and cheaper than gas driven products.  I wonder how many remember washing machines powered by small gas engines or cranking your Aunts old "Victrola" to play a record and picking up the receiver as the operator says "Number Please."

Buck Rogers, Star Wars and Star Trek are peeking at us from just around the corner.