Rv living/save for land and tow capacity - newbie

Hello!

I've been looking through this forum for a few weeks now. My wife and I are considering buying a fifth wheel and truck to live in it at a nearby RV park to save money for land. Running the numbers (We pay an outrageous amount for rent, suburbs of outside of a major city), I think we can save $1000/month on rent alone.  I will be buying a truck to tow the fifth wheel and will be using it as a daily driver as well. A couple questions/items I'd really appreciate advice on.

1. Currently looking at the Forest River Heritage Glen LTZ 286RL vs the Forest River... 368RLBHK, 8500lbs vs 10900lbs. My question is the 2016-2017 Silverado 2500 HD 6.0L with the 4.10 has a tow rating of 13000 for the short box, 4x4. Will that be enough to tow the BHK when trailer and my water tank is full (48*8.3=500)? I really don't want a 3500 as a daily driver. I know it's not about how much you can pull, but suspension and brakes. Thoughts?

2. We have a small dog, cat, and rabbit. My wife wants the 368 RLBHK, I'd prefer the 286RL due to easier towing and less cost. I know there are ways of placing litter box, ect. What is the actual daily life like in a small enclosed placed with animals? The bunkhouse would be nice due to the extra space for animals.

3. Planning a trip out west to glacier in the fall, what would the difference in towing be like between a 34 and 42 footer on highways and such? I do have experiencing with trailering bobcats with 22' ish landscape trailers towing with a F350 dump bed. I did hardscaping for several years. I am comfortable towing a 7000 lb bobcat, with a 3000lb trailer, and then 1-2 pallets of pavers at 2500-5000 lbs, so 12500-15000 total. However, I haven't tow the length of these such trailers yet nor at highway speeds 60+ for very long.

Any tid bits are very much appreciated!

Thank you!

Welcome to the forum!  You have got a lot of great questions, and I moved this thread to "Trailers and Fifth Wheels" since you'll get more views and responses there.

I'll let others tackle the technical questions, but I will say... 28' vs. 36' is a huge difference when it comes to full time living (even just for awhile).  I think the common suggestion you'll see here is to go as big as you can (considering your budget, truck, space, etc) and you probably won't be sorry.  What you want to avoid is buying something, and realizing a few months later that it's too small and something else will fit your needs better.  Don't limit your make/model choices, shop for floorplan & function (that fits your needs best) and not brand, and consider shopping gently used instead of new.  You'll save money up front, and recover more of it later on if/when you sell.  Take your time and research, research, research... this forum is a great place for that which I'm sure is why you joined.

There is virtually no difference in size or driveability between the 2500 and 3500 trucks. Almost no difference in cost either. The trailers you are interested in would be pulled much better by the 3500. Do not buy a truck that just barely meets the tow rating, it will be a miserable experience. And also look at other brands. You may have to travel to see them. Read the owners forums to see how they support, (or don't support), their customers. It is what sold me on my Outdoors RV.

You might want to consider used and cheap as a starter RV. Find a layout that appeals to you as tiny home living.

If this isn't your cup of tea, then you're investment isn't tremendous.

If you do fall in love with the lifestyle, then it's easier to trade up than to trade down.

There are professional movers/transporters that can move the 5th wheel to the lot you plan to live on while you test the waters, so you don't have to necessarily run out and buy a new truck right now either.

Try to look at dozens of used RV's so you begin to get a feel for what looks livable and what doesn't. What appeals to you and the pets and what doesn't.

Also in the interim, you may want to begin to scale back your belongings and begin the downsizing now. In an RV if you can't stow it, then you can't own it.

The weights you cited are empty (dry) weights. Forget those, use the UVW + CCC  instead.  That's the trailer GVWR or max loaded weight, and by the time you get your belongings in it plus some water, it will weigh close to that amount. The truck you cited is definitely insufficient the the 368RLBHK. You also need to be concerned about the trailer pin weight, which will be about 20% of the GVWR. Some 2500 truck configurations will lack the cargo capacity (payload) to handle the pin weight plus the passengers and hitch weight in the truck.

The Forest River Heritage Glen LTZ 286RL is actually a 34 footer and the 368 a 42 footer, so the model numbers can be misleading.  The very largest of them is still only 400 sq ft, though, so space is at a premium. I think your wife is closer to the right size for your needs. Chances are your present master bedroom & bath area are as large as the entire RV you are considering. Maybe larger.

I also don't see where you can save much money if you buy a new 5W and big truck. The RV lot rent is moderate, but you are sinking a ton of money into rapidly depreciating assets. The RV especially is basically money thrown down a hole.  You really need to look at used trailers (and trucks) if you want to put money aside. Even a 2-3 year old trailer will save a bundle.

Thank you all for the replies! Very much appreciated!

I definitely agree I don't want a truck that is close to the limit of all combined weights. That's why I like the 8500# 286RL pulled by the 2500hd. However, as you say the layout of the 368RLBHK might be better long term. Our ideal plan is to buy land and live in the RV on it while we build a house in a couple years time and then use the RV for trips. We will be able to save up for a down payment for land faster than if there was a house on it. Basically, our goal is land sooner than later. Also, one benefit of buying the RV is we can travel across country a couple times a year. We love to be outdoors and hike. This year would be Glacier that we have wanted to go to for awhile.

As far as saving money, I will be buying used truck regardless (maybe a year before I would have originally) because my 2wd car won't last many more winters. I prefer a 4x4 like I used to have. So I can consider that cost to be part of life. The RV parks I've called around where we will live have monthly costs of about $500 rent without utilities. We pay $1650 without utilities now, like I said, outrageous.

I see that the 3500 HD silverado also has a towing capacity of 13000, so unless I get the long box or the diesel I am out of luck with them. I used to have a Silverado 1500 and loved it to death. Don't really want the long box due to having to park it in a parking garage at work.

Definitely will consider used RVs, I just want to be sure get a warranty. independent company or from the dealer?

You didn't say where you live (City and State) but I'm going to assume that you have never lived in a RV
especially in the Winter time.  Many newbies think that it will be fine.  There are somethings that don't go together and one of them is
RV'ing and Winter. 

So unless your in a Deep Southern State you will not like RV'ing in the Winter and to be comfortable you will use a lot of propane
which will eat into your savings more than you think.

Our ideal plan is to buy land and live in the RV on it while we build a house in a couple years time

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You will have to have power and water and sewer to stay on your land you buy - which may not be cheap so keep that in mind.
Add a propane pig if you live in a cold climate.

Lets say you could save $1000 per month (probably a lot less IMO) and you have to buy a used truck and a used RV. 
How long will it take to pay those off and save for land and build a house? 
I'm just saying that since your going to be downsizing a lot - is there any chance you could move to a smaller apartment
for half the price?  That would save you more $$$$$ right away to buy land and then buy a Truck and RV?

It's you life and you can do what you want but I doubt that your going to save as much as you think you will by buying an RV now
and trying to save for land etc.  Most people find out quickly that RV'ing is not cheap or at least not as cheap as they thought it would be.

Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

Gary RV_Wizard said:

The Forest River Heritage Glen LTZ 286RL is actually a 34 footer and the 368 a 42 footer, so the model numbers can be misleading.

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Oops!  I'll take responsibility for that incorrect size assumption too.  Usually the model numbers have some semblance to the rig length, but obviously that's not always the case.

Cooper1 said:

Definitely will consider used RVs, I just want to be sure get a warranty. independent company or from the dealer?

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Well... RV warranties aren't really all they you might be thinking (compared to say, auto warranties).  Most manufacturers only provide 1 year of coverage (some are 2).  If you DO end up needing service during the camping season, you will often be at the back of the line and parts can take weeks/months to arrive.  There are many instances of folks losing out on the majority of a camping season, while their RV sits at a dealer awaiting warranty repair.  Your chances of needing such repair are also higher during the first year or two, once the rig hits the road and starts bouncing up and down the road.  If something is going to break down quickly, that's when it is most likely to happen.  Trailers in particular don't have THAT much to break, compared to motorhomes.

The remedy to that?  Buy a 3-5 year old rig that was cared for, well maintained, and not abused.  It will still have all the modern features of a new unit (if that's what you want), similar floorplans (they haven't changed much in the last 10 years), and all those new rig "shakedown" issues will have likely been fixed already by the previous owner(s).  Any money you would spend on a warranty, stick in a savings account (or "pay" yourself that amount into the account monthly) so you have a repair fund ready and waiting if/when you need it.  A lot of small issues are tinker items and you can fix them yourself.  Larger items you can find and install parts yourself from warehouses or Ebay, with help from folks at this forum.  Or hire a mobile RV tech to handle it if needed.  Something external like wind or road damage would be covered by your vehicle insurance.

Just some things to consider that could impact the final bottom line!

Welcome to the Forum!  Thanks for asking these questions BEFORE purchase!

The most important criteria is FLOOR PLAN!!  Make sure you are both happy with the floor plan or this plan will not work!  As others have said, this will be your full time living space, and 400 sq ft is not much space!  Make sure it is designed for YOUR lifestyle!

The 368RLBHK you referenced may weigh only 10,900# when it arrived at the dealer, but it will be much closer to (or over) 14,000#, or GVWR by the time you get moved in.  THIS is the weight of the FW you will be towing.  This means a 2800# pin wt.  You need enough payload for this, plus 200# for a FW hitch, plus the weight of all passengers and pets and other cargo in the truck.  You are solidly in 3500 territory.

As key master said, there is virtually no visible difference between a 2500 and a 3500 SRW. (Single Rear Wheel)  The 3500 has a heftier suspension and a higher GVWR, thus a higher Payload.  From the driver seat, there is no difference.  Now a 3500 dually IS a different animal!

For me, the easiest way to determine how much truck I needed was determine what FW weight max (GVWR, NOT DRY WT!) I would pull.  Take 20% as best estimate Pin Wt., then add the weight of the hitch and all passengers and cargo.  Make sure any truck of interest has a payload, as shown on the yellow placard on the driver door latch post.

One other concern is where do you plan to live?  If it is a four season area, the camper can get awfully cold and expensive to heat in the winter.

I understand the  much cheaper RV park cost vs. rent.  However, you will still have some utility expenses like cable TV and propane.  You also must spend $30,000 or more for the camper, plus the cost of camper maintenance.  You must be there for 2 ? YEARS, saving $1,000 a month, just to pay for the camper, then several more months to cover the utilities and maintenance before you really start saving any money towards a house.  This ignores the cost of the truck.  I'm not saying it can't be done.  I am suggesting a reality check so you go in with eyes wide open with more realistic expectations.

I believe you are planning to do some traveling with this, so PLEASE get enough truck!  If you do not plan to travel, as Miss Mermaid said, you can hire the FW moved for much less than buying a big truck you do not need otherwise.

Keep reading and ask lots of questions!!

RE the warranty, I bought my motorhome when it was 9 years old and paid a lot of money for an extended warranty. For me it has well paid off so I'm glad I bought it. However, most of my high dollar repairs were chassis related - if I eliminated all of those I wouldn't have yet broken even with 4 months remaining. My suggestion for a 5th wheel echoes what scottydl said, take your time and find a well cared for unit. You'll know, the owner will be bending your ear about when the bearings were last done, when the roof was last recaulked, etc, and will show you the receipts for everything.

Thank you all for your replies! I really appreciate your knowledge and sharing it with me!

We live in PA. So it's definitely four seasons. I have not researched heating extensively yet. It seems like a 30 lb propane tank may last 3-4 days in colder temps? So, that's about $21-25 I believe to fill. About $170-200 a month during the coldest months. My wife and I don't mind keeping the temp set to 62. This doesn't count for water heater/cooking, just estimates. Honestly, I don't have the goal of paying off the RV before starting to build our house. Maybe I should but we are fed up with apartment living. I understand RVs depreciate a devastating amount but if I plan on keeping it for years to come, it's better than giving someone else my hard earned money. I know that interest is always a factor.

It doesn't seem like the silverado's have enough towing capacity unless I go for a dually. Ram 2500 with the 6.7L Cummins has a decent payload and towing capacity though. I'll just have to search around and consider not staying loyal to Chevy! Ha.

The utilities besides propane are irrelevant. I pay for electric, water, sewage, and internet/cable here. Everything is itemized where we live. We'd be paying for all that regardless of where we lived.

I had a quote from a local rv dealer for a $30-35grand (don't remember) HG with the loan payment coming out to about $250? Does that sound low? We'd put several thousand down on an rv to help offset the financing portion.

Cooper1 said:

Thank you all for your replies! I really appreciate your knowledge and sharing it with me!

We live in PA. So it's definitely four seasons. I have not researched heating extensively yet. It seems like a 30 lb propane tank may last 3-4 days in colder temps? So, that's about $21-25 I believe to fill. About $170-200 a month during the coldest months.

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Assuming the RV park allows it, I'd contact a local propane dealer and arrange for them to bring out a 100 gallon fixed tank, the same kind as you'll eventually use for your house, and plumb it to the RV.  Much more convenient and reliable than hauling a portable tank to be filled every few days.

Cooper1 said:

We live in PA. So it's definitely four seasons. I have not researched heating extensively yet. It seems like a 30 lb propane tank may last 3-4 days in colder temps? So, that's about $21-25 I believe to fill. About $170-200 a month during the coldest months. My wife and I don't mind keeping the temp set to 62. This doesn't count for water heater/cooking, just estimates.

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I think you are underestimating the propane usage. When the temps hit the teens and colder, the furnace will run about 75% of the time (when it's in single digits it may run 90% of the time). The coldest weather I've had my rig in was continuous temps in the teens. I have a 38 gallon tank onboard tank (about 160 lb) so roughly 30 gallons usable. I burned about half the tank in 4 days (granted I did keep the inside temp in the mid to high 60s). I'm currently in AZ in a location that during Jan/Feb is mild during the day (50s-60s) but very cold at night (mid teens with a 10 thrown in). I'm hooked to a 100 lb external tank. My mode of operation is temp set to 61 at night, raise it to 68 for a couple hours while I'm having coffee, then set to 61 the rest of the day - during the day the heat does not run at all. With the fridge and hot water on electric I burned the entire 100 lb tank (less than 1/2 gal remaining) in 12 days. Again, bear in mind the furnace did not run at all from about 9am-7pm. The cubic footage to heat in my rig is comparable to what you're considering, probably smaller actually but close enough to compare.

There are things you can do to help. Skirting - I do not have a skirt on my rig because I'm not stationary and still travel - I don't want the hassle of removing it. You definitely will want skirting tight to the ground. On my rig all plumbing including black/gray drain lines is internal and heated, I think your fiver will have exposed pipes making skirting essential. I've also heard of people putting an electric heater on a thermostat under the rig, then skirting. You'll also want to install a catalytic heater (such as Mr Heater) inside. The catalytic uses dramatically less propane, however they burn oxygen and put out moisture so you need to leave a window or two cracked. You'll also need to consider all-weather connections to your sewer and water. If you're skirted with plumbing and valves under the rig, you'll want to consider electric dump valves (if the rig doesn't already have them) so you can dump the tanks without disturbing the skirting.

Once you have your land you may also want to consider building an RV carport to keep the snow off the rig. Some RV parks with long term tenants may allow you to build one there, and you could dismantle and move it when the time came.

Lou Schneider said:

Much more convenient and reliable than hauling a portable tank to be filled every few days.

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In the snow and ice! Absolutely.

Next year I'm actually going to go out to Pennsylvania to spend more time nearer to family and will spend the summers there (near Pittsburgh, where are you located?). I'm planning on heading south during the winter months though, just don't want to deal with overwintering in an RV.

Propane usage is pretty simple to figure out.  There are 90,000 BTUs in a gallon of propane.

Gas appliances are rated by the number of BTUs they consume per hour, not how much heat they put out.  So it's just a matter of dividing the BTU consumption into the number of BTUs in a gallon of propane.

RV furnaces range from 20,000 BTU to 35,000 BTU.  Let's use 30,000 BTUs.

Whenever the flame is on, the furnace will use (30,000/90,000) 1/3 gallon of propane per hour.

If the furnace runs all the time, it will use (24 x 1/3) 8 gallons of propane per 24 hour day.  If it's on 50% of the time will use 4 gallons a day, etc.

Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon, so to convert the gallons to Pounds, multiply the above by 4.2.

Lou Schneider said:

If the furnace runs all the time, it will use 8 gallons of propane per 24 hour day (24/3=8).  If it's on 50% of the time will use 4 gallons a day, etc.

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So using this info and guessing the furnace is on 75% of the time (which it will be in PA in January) I get 180 gallons a month. At $2.50/gal that's $450/mo.

Many folks use electric heat and then use the propane furnace to supplement the electric heat as needed.

I had a heat pump installed when my roof AC died, but the heat pump would balk and go off at about 38F degrees, it varied between 32and 40 as to when it would go off. At that point it was propane only and or ceramic heater. Most all roof AC's have the option of adding a heat strip and that can produce some electric heat for you without tripping over a portable heater.

The right ceramic heater can throw out a lot of heat where you need it most but it will hog 1500 watts. You haven't mentioned if one or both of you are gone working all day, of course the pets have to be kept at a living temperature. Mine managed to do fine at 58-60F degrees in my absence,  though I am sure they would have preferred more heat, they had cozy rugs and bedding to keep them warm.

If your goal is to save money, then forget the financing and buy used, what you can afford to pay in cash. It's far easier to trade up than to trade down in the future.

Once you are in debt with a rig, you are pretty well committed to it whether you like it or not. Those payments could be going into savings. Settle for a lot less now in order to have a lot more sooner... rather than later (or never as is the case for many).

I have lived in RV parks meeting folks that want out from under their current financed rigs, but they can't sell them for the payoff either, and they can't afford to take that kind of loss by selling and paying up the difference. Some are having trouble keeping up with the payments and the maintenance too, so they face paying on a rig that is falling apart from lack of repairs and maintenance. Some things if not properly looked after can rapidly escalate in future costs exponentially.

If you go with a cash paid for rig and after the first winter you decide this is nuts, then it's easier to get out from under the used paid for rig, but if it's financed, then you have another can of worms to deal with. If you like this lifestyle, then you've saved a bundle of money by not making payments on it each month.

There are ways to drastically cut costs and go into extreme savings mode to reach your goals. But throwing in lavish trips along with financing a rig and a truck too,  isn't going to be one of them.

I think you might want to go back to the drawing board about your ultimate goals and what trade offs you are willing to make in order to realistically reach those goals.

Throughout my life I've scribbled on tons of paper while I figured out budgets, goals, dreams and what ifs. Amazingly I've lived an incredible lifestyle, following many of my dreams that others thought impossible,  but it did require times when I was in extreme mode in order to raise cold hard cash to see my dreams come to fruition without the heavy baggage of unnecessary debt.

Eliminating debt or at the very least, refusing to take on additional debt can do wonders for reaching lofty goals. Nothing like a stash of cash to seriously make dreams happen. But getting there is always not so easy and may require incredible hard work and restraint in managing day to day finances to realistically get there sooner rather than later or never at all.

Thank you everyone for your input! There is a ton to consider, of course even more than I had thought. Would it be considered a requirement to have a warranty on the purchase of a used RV? As far a ceramic heater, you just mean a space heater that you'd normally buy for a house?

Tough decisions for sure. My wife and I are adventurist and really want to travel with the trailer, it just seems like it'd be easier and more fun to drive to different destinations and camp instead of Airbnb or such. I know I'm in the fifth wheel section, but maybe I will start looking into TT. The winter scares me but I'm sure there's a few people out there who do it (maybe regrettably)!

RVing is definitely fun or we wouldn't all be doing it. Generally speaking though it's not cheap. And can you overwinter in the NE in an RV? Yes, but only with preparation and even more money. A ceramic heater will help, but you cannot heat a 5th wheel in PA in Jan with a ceramic heater. Perhaps help, but not as the sole source of heat. Plus you will be on a meter where you pay for the electric. If not, many parks will tell you no electric heat (because they don't want to pay for it). So the bottom line is you'll pay a lot for heat whether it's gas and/or electric.

And the bigg

Gary RV_Wizard said:

I also don't see where you can save much money if you buy a new 5W and big truck. The RV lot rent is moderate, but you are sinking a ton of money into rapidly depreciating assets. The RV especially is basically money thrown down a hole.  You really need to look at used trailers (and trucks) if you want to put money aside. Even a 2-3 year old trailer will save a bundle.

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And while I agree with Gary, even going used you're spending a lot of money to "save" money. The stated final goal is land plus a house - I would run long range worst case budget scenarios to see if getting to your final goal by buying a truck and trailer is really going to work. In a couple years you could easily find yourself having a good time in the RV (which of course is great) but being no closer to the stated goal of saving money to buy land.

BTW, where in PA are you?

I had that same Silverado you mentioned.  It would not be enough for what you are considering.  I don't think you will find a 2500 truck that can handle well what you are considering.

Look for an RV with an Arctic package.

They are generally set up for cold weather living. They will have some or all of these extra features like heated underbelly to keep water and tanks from freezing, double pane windows, extra insulation, better heat options, ceiling fan (push the heat back down), heated warm flooring and so on.

Also go visit the local RV parks you might be interested in staying at. There are probably some winter residents there and you can see how their rigs are set up. While traveling in the fall up north, I ran into folks who were living year round in their RV's in cold country. Usually the electric heated water hose covered in thick insulation was a dead give away. Also some used storm windows or shrink wrap or had their windows covered with insulation, not ideal for viewing, but can help in the winter if you don't mind the lack of natural light.

Surviving the Winter in your RV, this article has great info and links to more info:
http://marxrv.com/skp/survive.htm