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Author Topic: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?  (Read 26774 times)

Just Lou

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Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« on: May 31, 2007, 11:49:23 AM »
Is it unlawful to carry more passengers, than you have seat belts for, in your motorhome?  Seems to me it probably should be, but I don't know. 

We are attending a family reunion next week and will be the transport of choice for some family members to and from some nearby events.  Should we limit the occupants to the number of seatbelts available?

lou
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chaajoad

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 12:17:29 PM »
Interesting Question ...

I think it IS illegal - all occupants of a vehicle need to be strapped in. Whether it will be enforced is another story. And the truth is, most of us with RVs will have folks moving around while we roll down the road - using the bathroom, making a sandwich, taking a nap, etc. I look forward to other posts on this one ...

Danny
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UK-RV

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2007, 01:00:53 PM »

I found the Warning Notice on side facing seats in our Fleetwood a bit confusing.

"Warning : This seat not to be occupied whilst vehicle in motion" - and then provides seat belts for it !!

Paul

Tom

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 03:22:00 PM »
Those seat belts are for when the vehicle is stationary Paul.
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Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 03:32:49 PM »
When sitting in that seat and you fall asleep, it keeps you from falling out.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2007, 03:42:51 PM »
It would be illegal in a passenger car or light truck. It would not be illegal in a bus, which is not even required to be equipped with seat belts for every passenger. Not sure where a motorhome fits in the scheme of things, but I believe the federal DOT regulations require a seat belt for every passenger the motorhome is rated to carry.  However, the requirement to actually use the seat belts is another matter and will vary by state. You might want to check with your state for a ruling specific to a motorhome in use as a private vehicle.
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Ron

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2007, 07:40:50 PM »
Non use of seatbelts unsafe ase we are all aware.  Whether or not it is illegal in the state you are traveling in would depend which state you are traveling.
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JRickey

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2007, 07:51:16 PM »
It is illegal to sit in a seat ment for a passenger that has seat belts and not wear them.  It is illegal to ride in the back of a pick up when a seat with seatbelts is not occupied.  It is not illegal to sit in the back of a pick up when the passenger seats are occupied.  As for a motor home I would assume as long as all of the seats with belts are occupied and the rest is sitting in a seat designed for sitting and not placard then it would be legal.  It kind of funny that a human can ride in the back of a p/u un restrained but a dog cannot.  This is in the state of WA.  Traffic laws differ from state to state.

Carl L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2007, 07:56:26 PM »
Non use of seatbelts unsafe ase we are all aware.  Whether or not it is illegal in the state you are traveling in would depend which state you are traveling.

Not really, unless you are traveling in New Hampshire.   From the Prevention Institutes article SEATBELTS: CURRENT ISSUES by By Toni Gantz and Gretchen Henkle October 2002:

In 1985, at least one mandatory seatbelt use bill was introduced in all but two (Idaho and Nevada) of the 49 states holding Congressional sessions that year. By September 1989, 34 states had enacted mandatory seatbelt use laws. As of December 27, 1995, with the passage of Maine's belt law, every state except for New Hampshire had a mandatory belt law. (The auto industry concurrently developed and began installing passive restraint systems in some car models, mainly in the forms of automatic shoulder harness seatbelts and airbags, but these were not widely available.)

New Hampshire's state motto gets rephrased "Live Free and Die.

The article goes on to discuss primary enforcement:

Some of the most dramatic improvements have been seen through the passage of primary, or standard, enforcement seatbelt laws, which allow a police officer to stop a driver and issue a ticket for the sole reason of not wearing a seatbelt. Secondary enforcement laws, unique to the U.S., allow for non-belted occupants or drivers to be ticketed only after being stopped for another moving violation. To date, 19 states have a primary enforcement law.

A recent study by Alma Cohen and Liran Einav at Harvard University's Department of Economics showed that seatbelt usage increased an average of 11 percentage points after the passage of secondary enforcement seatbelt laws and 22 percentage points after the passage of primary enforcement laws. When states switched from secondary enforcement laws to primary enforcement laws, usage increased an average of 13 percentage points. This also translates into fewer fatalities: as Evans and Graham reported in 1991, after the passage of primary laws, states experienced an average reduction in motor vehicle occupant fatalities of over 20%; secondary law states experienced an average 7% reduction in fatalities.

California, a primary enforcement state, currently reports 91% usage -- the highest in the country. After the passage of a mandatory seatbelt law in 1986, California's usage rate went from 26% to approximately 45%. By 1992, California's usage had increased to 71%. With the passage of the primary enforcement law in 1993, California's usage rate jumped to 83%, steadily climbing to the current rate. According to the National Safety Council, California's fatality rate has decreased by over 34% since the passage of the primary enforcement law.


California's decrease in traffic fatalities concurrent with its tough enforcement should convince any think folk of the desirability of buckling up and staying buckled.
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 08:05:35 PM »
What I don't understand is..It's against the law NOT to use your seat belt in my state, but hey if you wanna ride your motorcycle don't worry about your head bouncing off the pavement...no need for a helmet here??? How does that kind of thinking work? I mean I'm not Pro seat belt. I figure that it is my right to or not too use it. If someone gets in a wreck, and is thrown out of a car, and  strikes someone else and kills them...then they can make it a law(just my opinion). but for them to go on and on about how it saves lives, then say...NO on a helmet law..makes no sense to me.
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Wendy

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 08:10:38 PM »
It's simple. No one really argues against wearing a seat belt so the laws stay intact. But there's a very vocal group campaigning against wearing motorcycle helmets so most states let the bikers go bare headed.
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 08:17:19 PM »
your right...it's usually some saying.." it's our freedom to go without a helmet, we feel more free out there and the experience is something you can't describe"... To them I say.."ya ever had a bird hit ya in the head will riding??? a june bug??? or have you ever had a car pull out in front of you and had to go down to miss them??? usually the answer is either..Yea...hu..hu.. what's your point? or I'm a good rider.. Trust me there are only 2 types of riders...Ones that have gone down.. and ones that are going to go down.. doesn't matter how good you are..it will happen..kevin
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Ron

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 08:24:02 PM »
How true.
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 08:39:16 PM »
dont' get me wrong...I still feel that the seat belt or helmet should be left up to the person, but if your gonna make me wear a seat belt...ya gotta make them wear a helmet too..besides...I've been hit in the head by a bird, with a helmet on and it dang near nocked me off the bike, and I had a headache for atleast 2days..kevin
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John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2007, 09:01:44 PM »
Depends on which law book you read.

First: Have you ever read a warranty all the way to the end?  Was the last sentence "You may have other rights which vary from state to state"? 

Laws vary from state to state and from "Age" to "Age"

In Michigan for example. ALL front seat occupants must be properly "Restrained" with seat belts or a proper child restraint system depending on the age of the occupant.

Rear seat passengers are required to be properly restrained under the age of 16, 16 and over can choose to live or die should the vehicle crash.  (And yes, I've seen more than one accident where seat bealth either made the difference, or would have had they been used, all, were, of course, fatals, the person WITH NO BELT died, (Save in one case where the person with no belt was thrown from the vehicle, thus loosing control, and the now human-less truck went on to kill two people, again, a seat belt would have saved TWO lives in that one)

Other states, laws vary

The law of physics that I kind of allueded to above, the one that says your chances of walking are EIGHT times better WITH a belt than without (Both of surviving and of surviving with little or no injury)  That one is universial, it's in force EVERYWHERE and the penality for violation may well be death! (Or what's worse)

Several years ago I had a baby daughter, and needed a baby sitter (She's 27 now) Hired a teen who had recently been in an accident... Her friends (3 of them) laughed at her when she buckeled up.  She had the good grace not to laugh at their funerals.  They broke the law of physics, They paid the price.. She did not, She split her lip (that and some brusing was all she had, not even a trip to hospital was needed)

After that I saw a truck, rollover, 3 people, Mommie, Dead.  Daddy Server injuries  Both, no seat belt,  Junior, in compliance with the law at that time belted.. He had minor injuries.  Such as I might do shaving in the morning, from flying glass. Not even a band-aid was needed, just a few seconds of pressure.

I'm sold on belts
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2007, 09:29:44 PM »
My family owned a salvage yard for years, we had 10 wreckers and 3 cranes we ran out of their. When I was younger I used to go with my dad and uncles to wrecks all the time, usually in bad weather(cold,wet,dark out). I too have seen many many things that you wouldn't want to see in a persons life, including a mans brain steaming on the highway after his truck finishing raping itself around a pole. I have been in 3 wrecks 1st I was hit by a drunk driver in the 80's, cut my eye, and my left leg, then I missed my turn and ended up in a ditch with a dented car, last buy not least I fliped my car upside down while spinning on ice on my way home late one night...all three...no seat belt. you are right they do help save lives, as do motorcycle helmets too, I just feel that if you want to then wear them if not..then don't..kevin
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Bob Buchanan

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2007, 10:57:54 PM »

I just feel that if you want to then wear them if not..then don't..kevin


Well, Kevin, if you decide to "not" wear them - and everyone else is given that choice, it not only increases your and their risk of injury or death (proven beyond a shadow of doubt by study after study in State after State), but it also effects me. It impacts my pocketbook in that my health care costs go up. Millions and millions in health care cost increases such as ER costs, ambulatory costs, Medicare costs, Medicaid costs, and so forth go up by the millions of injuries caused by not wearing seat belts. There are tons of references for this  -- HERE is one from the State of MN.

The helmet issue I agree should be under the same strick law codes in every State -- for the reasons stated above. However, the fact that some States drag their feet on such issues does not lessen the validity of the State laws prohibiting non use of seat belts.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 11:03:09 PM by Bob Buchanan »
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Karl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2007, 08:31:56 AM »
Quote
I found the Warning Notice on side facing seats in our Fleetwood a bit confusing.
Paul, It's called Corporate CYA. Any seat in the vehicle WILL be used at one time or another while traveling regardless of warnings to the contrary. It's their way of protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits.
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

michelb

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 08:39:40 AM »
I found the Warning Notice on side facing seats in our Fleetwood a bit confusing.

"Warning : This seat not to be occupied whilst vehicle in motion" - and then provides seat belts for it !!

Paul


It's interesting that you mention this because I think other than the driver and passenger seats ALL other seats in our 94 Allegro Bay (barrel chair, sofa bed, dinette table, etc) have this warning message even though they have seatbelts.

As far as seat belts, I believe it's a state/state thing (same as ridding in back of a trailer).  This link specifies different rules in different states http://www.woodalls.com/output.cfm?ID=1195129 (I've seen better 'table format' ones but I can't find one at the moment).  Different states also have different rules on how it can be enforced (e.g. in Florida you need to where your seatbelt but officers can't actually stop you if they notice you aren't wearing it - they can only stop you for another infraction and then charge you for not wearing the seatbelt (no idea what the logic is there but whatever)).

I think it's safe to assume that most (all ?!?) of us think that everyone should where a belt at all times although I have to admit that when I'm the passenger I have gotten up to get a drink or food or use the bathroom while the RV is in motion.
Mike
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2007, 08:44:13 AM »
Bob,
 I understand what your saying about it causing cost to go up, but from what I've seen in my short life span the health care system is alot like the oil companies. They don't need any reason to raise the cost, they do as the please and leave you and I to figure out how to pay. I've found that you are almost better off to not have health insurance at all.  I do however wear my seat belt in the wifes car, and the motor home. My truck "74" chevy farm truck only has a lap belt...kevin
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Jim Godward

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 08:46:53 AM »
Just to throw a little rock in the game.  Check woth the safety people/seat belt manufacturers and see what they say about using a seat belt while seated sideways in a vehicle.  VBG
Jim
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Clay L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2007, 10:36:45 AM »
Not really, unless you are traveling in New Hampshire.   From the Prevention Institutes article SEATBELTS: CURRENT ISSUES by By Toni Gantz and Gretchen Henkle October 2002:


While NH does not have a ADULT seat belt law they do have one for minors.  Belts are required for people under 18 years of age.

I lived in NH for 18 years and for the most part agree with the NH concept of personal freedom,  but this is one case I have a problem with.

On the other hand, while I lived there, some belt usuage surveys showed that NH folk's seat belt usuage was better than in neighboring MA where there is a mandatory seat belt law.


EDIT: I did a little research and it appears that NH now has about 64 to 70% (depends on the survey) seat belt usuage compared to about 80% in neighboring states.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2007, 10:52:44 AM by Clay L »
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Betty Brewer

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2007, 08:42:14 PM »
Here's an interesting little twist.  I once heard (and now can't  confirm it with any factual posting) that if a manufacturer put a seat belt in the rig, he had to account for that weight in his CCC and so   manufactures were not putting in many  seals belts to  keep the CCC higher.
  Betty

 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:51:39 PM by Betty Brewer »
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2007, 09:40:30 PM »
like I said before, I wear it in my wifes car and the motorhome, but I just hate being told to do it. I guess what I mean is I don't need to see studies, or have the government tell me to do something. It should be my choice.. I guess it's like this.. We all know that smoking causes cancer right?? and if you drink enough, you get that liver disease right?? so why don't they make that stuff Illeagal?? I figure they got a better chance of enforcing that then they do the seat belt laws.. I have to take mine off to get my wallet out everytime I get pulled over, then the cop ask.." were you wearing your seatbelt"...well duuuuuhhhh..kevin
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Ron

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2007, 09:50:25 PM »
In the same light do you fell that th government should not be requiring you to stop and stop signs, red lights, pull over for emergency vehicles, or tell you what the maximum speed you should drive? Laws are made to protect the public and seat belt laws fall into that category.  I knew a man that was seriously injured because the individual that hit him had been thrown out of the driving position when he it a slick spot and hit a curb resulting in his being unable to properly control that vehicle.  Sweat belt laws are not only to protect the individual but the public.  Laws are made to protect the public and obeying or ignoring the law is not something that should be a individuals choice.
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Betty Brewer

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2007, 10:32:39 PM »
What about when you're driving??

I always  buckle up when in the driver's seat or in any  passenger seat. 
Betty
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 10:59:01 PM by Betty Brewer »
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Ray D

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2007, 10:46:06 PM »
Kevin: I was going to stay out of this. Then you said, "I have to take mine off to get my wallet out everytime I get pulled over, ......" I have to ask. Is this a problem? Do you get pulled over, often enough to make that an issue?

I am not particularly fond of being told what to do, either. So, I minimize the opportunitys. I avoid getting pulled over even if that means I need to do something I didn't really want to do. (Like stay under the speed limit.)

To each his own.

Ray D  ;D
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2007, 10:59:49 PM »
Kevin: I was going to stay out of this. Then you said, "I have to take mine off to get my wallet out everytime I get pulled over, ......" I have to ask. Is this a problem? Do you get pulled over, often enough to make that an issue?

I am not particularly fond of being told what to do, either. So, I minimize the opportunitys. I avoid getting pulled over even if that means I need to do something I didn't really want to do. (Like stay under the speed limit.)

To each his own.

Ray D  ;D
NO it's not a problem at all..what I meant was this. They make this law, that most of the time They can't tell if you are wearning it or not. when I get pulled over (not usually more than 1 every year) I already have it off to get my wallet so they wouldn't be able to know one way or the other..you could lie to them and say yes I was, and never have put it on.
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Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2007, 11:05:14 PM »
They have camera all over now and even show your facial features as your driving down the hwy.  They just clocked a guy speeding at over 100 mph and smiling will giving the camera the bird.  they got him.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007, 11:07:22 PM »
In the same light do you fell that th government should not be requiring you to stop and stop signs, red lights, pull over for emergency vehicles, or tell you what the maximum speed you should drive? Laws are made to protect the public and seat belt laws fall into that category.  I knew a man that was seriously injured because the individual that hit him had been thrown out of the driving position when he it a slick spot and hit a curb resulting in his being unable to properly control that vehicle.  Sweat belt laws are not only to protect the individual but the public.  Laws are made to protect the public and obeying or ignoring the law is not something that should be a individuals choice.
I understand your point, just seems to be that the government isn't very consistant with their laws as far as the seat belt vs helmets/ same could be said about talking on the phone/eating/drinking/and playing with the radio...I don't know I guess urks me to be told what to do and when to do it, but most of them don't follow the rules either..you know what I'm saying..and yes I know 2 wrongs don't make a right my bad... but hey just think If we all were the same...would be a very boring place wouldn't it??? kevin
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kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2007, 11:10:25 PM »
They have camera all over now and even show your facial features as your driving down the hwy.  They just clocked a guy speeding at over 100 mph and smiling will giving the camera the bird.  they got him.
they can't figure out how to use the radar gun in my town yet... yes we are slow here..haha sad thing is I got behind a cop last week and he wasn't even wearing his seat belt... wanted to pull him over for a $25 ticket, but thought better of it..kevin
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Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2007, 11:54:07 PM »
The Repercussion could be unbearable. As well as costly.
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Houseofarticcats

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2007, 10:49:24 PM »
Yup you are so right about the seat belt law here in NH.. only people under 18 have to wear them... But most of us use them anyways..heheheh .. Oh and I says... Live Free OR Die...  hahahahahahahahah  To bad the OLD MAN didn't have his seat belt on the morning his face fell off...   It might have saved him..hahahahahahah (sorry it was there.. Just my bad humor)

JRickey

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2007, 12:56:50 AM »
If you  believe the goverment shouldn't make you wear your seat belt then the goverment shouldn't be made to pay for your disability, convelecent care, your medicare, subsidise your childs education loans because you can't pay for it, give you a handicap permit and allow you to utilize all options of a disabled person and any other assistance you expect from making a stupid, arrogent, premeditated decision. Oh and I shouldn't be expected to scape you up from the ditch that your were thrown into as your exited your vehicle impacting everything on the way out.  As for those of you who only think you need to wear one if your in the front seat.....were do you think you will end up in a frontal impact?  After you hit the rest of the passengers in the vehicle and cause great bodily harm you will either  (A) end up through the windshield, (B) a bloody heap on the floor board, up under the dash,  take your pick.  Ok, I'm done and feel better.

Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2007, 01:14:14 AM »
Richey   It sure makes sense to me.
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chaajoad

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2007, 02:11:38 AM »
The general sentiment here is no one likes being told what to do. The problem (IMO) is the vast majority people do such silly and dangerous things that their willful recklessness can cost all of us a whole.

I've ridden motorcycles since I was 12 years old and have never been on one without a helmet. When I was about 14, I attended a funeral for a classmate who dumped his Honda 305 after hitting a patch of dirt while going around a corner. He was going slow but hit his head on the curb and broke it open like a dropped vase. I recall how gray his face looked - the embalmer had to use a lot of putty to make him presentable. That's haunted me since that day.

I've dumped a bike twice and it's never involved reckless driving by me or anyone else. First time was when I het a set of railroad tracks during light rain with with a little 90cc dirt bike and learned a lesson on how oil comes to the surface during rain. It was a miracle I wasn't hurt because a handlebar stuck the bike on the tracks while I skidded out into a busy intersection. My helmet was pretty beat up. Second time was on my Honda Shadow 1100 and - like my schoolmate from all those years back - hit a patch of dirt in a curve. Again, I had a bit of road rash but was okay. The lesson learned there was how easy it is to do $3000 damage at about 15 mph. I was stunned to learn a new gas tank was over a grand.

I'm completely, 100% pro helmet. If you're over 18 and don't want to wear one, I'm okay with that
provided you will sign a waiver allowing a hospital to only give you food, water and pain medicine in the event you are injured in a wreck. I'm all for folks doing what they want as long as they pay for it. If you roll your MH and aren't belted in and snap your neck, I'll grieve for you - just don't ask me to pay your medical expenses. And we all will, either through increased premiums or subsidizing unpaid bills.

So I say this in complete sincerity -

I'm thinking that if anyone other than my immediate family rides in the rig this summer, they should sign a waiver stating I warned them of the dangers of moving around inside a vehicle speeding down the road and advised them of where seat belts are and how to use them. Seriously. I can just see it in court:

"Danny never warned me that if i was looking in the fridge for a pop and he braked suddenly that I might go through the windshield."

Tom

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2007, 02:26:41 AM »
Danny,

I've never understood why folks ride motorcycles without helmets. I still have a scar from a tumble in the mid 60's - due to having to avoid a swerving car. Hit a light pole, the bike stopped and I was propelled like a canonball. They told me I wouldn't still be here if I hadn't been wearing a helmet.

Also had some tumbles due to black ice, but the bike always came out of them much worse than me, thanks to a helmet and other protective clothing.
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PancakeBill

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2007, 09:46:28 AM »
I am a seatbelt user, helmet user, I even wear gloves when dumping my tanks.  Helmeted when riding my bicyclle too.  Lost a friend to non-use, a 3  mph fall.  Thing is, it just depends.  Kevin survived his non-seatbelted crashes, he was lucky, maybe not his time to  go. 

I do support the folks against the helmet laws, although I think insurance should limit liablity when a safety device is not used.  Still a choice, but one with responsiblity.

Bill & Jolene W & Koda

Old Faithful, Yellowstone Association Bookstore
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2007, 11:03:02 AM »
Last week at Road America, we had a 2-day motorcycle school which resulted in 3 ambulance trips to the hospital and 1 AirEvac. Granted, this was not a "Learn To Ride Your 50cc. putt-putt", but a racing school where everyone is required to wear leathers, helmets, neck protectors (makes them look like the Huntchback of Notre Dame), full calve boots, and knee pucks. It wasn't the novices or imtermediates who got injured; it was the expert riders. Just shows that experience doesn't necessarily give you added protection - quite the opposite, those less experienced tend to be more cautious. IMHO, if you want to be Peter Fonda in Easy Rider, buy the video and experience it vicariously.

The previous week we had a Porsche Club drivers school. Gentleman had a new 911 GT3 (around $100k) and crashed it into the concrete wall his second lap out. Neck and head injury -  thankfully non life-threatening. The irony? He had a Hans Device..... in his trailer! ::)
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

thinkerbell

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2007, 01:02:45 PM »
I don't mean to be the rabble rouser here (I'm still new and my chair squeaks), but I'm going to take that chance and make some comments.

1. RVs aren't always equipped with seatbelts (especially the older models). As with older vehicles which also tend to not have seatbelts, don't laws state that where no seatbelts are available via manufacturer, you don't have to legally worry?

2. RV drivers tend to be more cautious of their surroundings than your average drivers. Maybe I'm wrong here, but aren't we more aware of our surroundings than a lot of people? I would think that accidents and fatalities tend to be far less of an issue when you're dealing with a +24' rig that makes speed limit and tends to stick to the right lane.

3. I grew up in the 70's laying in the back of a station wagon and coloring for most of the across-country trips we made. I also ate candy cigarettes and listened to KC and the Sunshine band. I didn't die, and grew up to be an adorable person (my husband's too scared of me to disagree)  :D. I think we live in a constant state of fear these days. If it's not terrorists and child predators, it's the fact that if my kid can't lay down in the cab and enjoy the freedom of not being strapped down in a Suburban. I'm sorry, folks, but it's not child endangerment if we're on a freeway in favorable weather conditions and sparse traffic and my kids aren't strapped in for a few minutes at a time.

Just my opinion, from your neighborhood friendly child of the 70's. Your mileage may vary.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 01:07:13 PM by thinkerbell »
Loves her 1990 26' Tioga like a good hair day

Wendy

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2007, 01:18:13 PM »
I grew up in the 50s-60s and we did a lot of things that didn't kill us. But that doesn't make them any less stupid or dangerous. We rode in the back of pickup trucks. We didn't even know what a child carseat was. We didn't wipe the cutting board with bleach after cutting up chicken. We didn't have automatic cut-off switches on the lawn mower. Did we survive? Apparently so.

Now, I can't include wearing seat belts because we ALWAYS wore seatbelts. Dad installed them in all our cars and no car started moving until we had those belts on.

And back to the original questions, "Is it unlawful or just unsafe?" My answer would be that driving or riding in a moving vehicle without wearing your seatbelt is unlawful in most places, unsafe in almost all circumstances and just plain stupid.

thinkerbell, I agree with your #2 comment. Also #1 but if I bought an older motorhome with no seat belts, I'd have them installed.  #3, see above.

Wendy


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Carl L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2007, 01:42:45 PM »
 
Quote
I grew up in the 70's laying in the back of a station wagon and coloring for most of the across-country trips we made. I also ate candy cigarettes and listened to KC and the Sunshine band. I didn't die,...,

It is good to know that our membership does not extend into the hereafter.  That both you and Wendy are here writing indicates you are both survivors.   Those that did not survive do not write here or any place else.   Surviving is a function of skill, luck, and the intelligence to provide for bad luck.   Seat belts are an intelligent provision against bad luck.  The kind of bad luck like a drunk in a SUV crossing four lanes of traffic to land on your front fender before your driver has time to dodge. 
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Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2007, 01:53:40 PM »
Maybe I should start wearing a helmet in the MH when I get near the FJs.  That could all coincide with when Carl is referring to.  Self Preservation.  You think?
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

Wendy

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2007, 01:57:32 PM »
Maybe I should start wearing a helmet in the MH when I get near the FJs.  That could all coincide with when Carl is referring to.  Self Preservation.  You think?

Shayne, I'd advise you to wear a helmet all the time since you seem able to get yourself in trouble anywhere, not just at Flying Js.
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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Carl L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2007, 02:04:17 PM »
Shayne, I'd advise you to wear a helmet all the time since you seem able to get yourself in trouble anywhere, not just at Flying Js.


Two helmets, one on top, the other behind.

Carl L/LA   [Forum Staff]  KI6SEZ

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2007, 02:29:57 PM »
RVs are not intended to be used as buses.  If they only have 2 seats with belts, then that's all that should be carried when in motion.  In my experience, RV drivers are not always more careful than other drivers, in some cases they're even worse, having little experience with or concern about driving 15 tons of vehicle down the road.  And they don't drive the speed limit any more than auto drivers.  There are exceptions (like us :) ) and an RV driver will either learn the limitations of him/her and their vehicle or they won't be on the road very long.

In the 50s and 60s, and even the 70s, we didn't have to contend with road rage and the typical belligerent driver that seems to be the norm these days.  Driving was safer then.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

thinkerbell

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2007, 02:39:53 PM »
I see your points and agree that there are definitely more numpties on the road now than there used to be.

Our kids are always buckled in times of weather turbulence, through rough traffic areas, and always through towns when there is stop and go traffic (or any other time we have any concerns). Still, there are times when it's nice to lay down on the open highway in safe conditions and good weather/visibillity and go to sleep when they're wiped out, or to peek out the top cab (it's fun when you're a kid and higher up than the cars in front of you). I agree than an rv isn't a bus, but, shoot. I think if you're a paranoid and pragmatic parent you know when those safe and not so safe times exist. I don't plan to knock off any offspring. My oldest son plans to run for President and he'll need votes.

I understand the concern being put forth and respect all thoughts on this issue, even if I respectfully disagree on certain aspects.  :)

I also believe folks should wear helmets, but don't think forcing them is a good idea. I'm a civil libertarian.  :D

BTW, I think you guys are the best, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I am vocal, but I always try to be respectful, and I always bring snacks.   ;D

« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 02:46:46 PM by thinkerbell »
Loves her 1990 26' Tioga like a good hair day

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2007, 02:56:31 PM »
Quote
and I always bring snacks.

That's what the courts call "redeeming social value" and it excuses a lot of things that might otherwise be found legally objectionable.  :P

And candor is always welcome here, as long as it is politely and respectfully expressed.
Gary
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PancakeBill

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2007, 05:44:23 PM »
Hey, I get to agree with Carl!  That was my point when folks would ask why I bought and wore a bike helmet, we all grew up without them.  We did, but how about the ones that didn't? 

With MC helmets, I posted my feelings earlier.

I am all about choice.  But with choices there are responsiblities.  Don't make a choice you can't back your responsibilities on.

Seatbelts, been wearing them since the 60's.  I installed them in my car. 

You would need to find a pretty old RV to find one without belts. 
Bill & Jolene W & Koda

Old Faithful, Yellowstone Association Bookstore
1997 Southwind 35P
Toads: 1997 Honda Accord (sold) & 1986 Westfalia (sold), and now 2000 Suzuki Grand Vitara.
FMCA F-401354
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Karl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2007, 09:42:40 PM »
Quote
and I always bring snacks.
Qurious - what do you put into those cookies that makes them special? On the other hand, maybe I don't want to know :D

While I understand and respect your desire to 'drive and live free', that ignores the other drivers that can turn your free and easy drive into a disaster. You can control your actions (to some extent), but have no control over those of others.
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

chaajoad

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2007, 10:03:27 PM »
Interesting discussion ...

I was discussing this with a friend over the weekend and I see the biggest contributor to our declining civility and quality of life as the absence of shame. There just isn't any left. We live in a world where young women are photographed getting out of a car minus underwear and they're asked for their autograph. Athletes make millions and the news has as many stories of their arrests and egotistical behavior as their scoring.

In today's paper, a 20-something young man was part of an article about increasing motorcycle fatalities being part of more bikes on the road. He had very little experience riding but wanted cheap transportation between Seattle and his girlfriend's house in Ellensburg. No one in their right mind would want to regularly ride over Snoqualimie Pass on a cheap anything, but that's another topic. Anyway, he was on this bike, in the dark and couldn't negotiate an unfamiliar curve. With his girlfriend in a car behind him, he flew off the side into trees. Two broken arms, one broken leg and numerous other problems - but he lived. At one point in the article, he basically claimed ignorance that motorcycles were that powerful and something like that could happen.

Instead of being ashamed of his lack of judgment, instead of grateful no one else was injured and he wasn't killed, he pretty much blamed it on outside forces.

Tinker, I like what you write. And I'm betting I'm more like you than not. If we're on a highway with no problems and my kid wants to use the facilities or my wife wants to take a nap - no problem. But if something were to happen, I'd blame ME. Not the manufacturer or the mythical "someone" who should have warned me. I've even told my wife if I die as the result of a true accident - no neglect, just a simple accident - please don't sue.

As for your political beliefs, that's not for this board. But i've never EVER understood the Libertarian POV. In a growing nation of 300 million, the only way it can reasonably work is through a series of negotiated rules and regulations - IMO, at least.

As for MH fokks being more careful drivers:

If there's any doubt I'm as human as the next guy -

We were rolling down a two lane WA highway to make a ferry to BC. Got a late start, the usual. And my speed just crept up on me. Out of nowhere I realized I was doing well over 60 in a 50 mph and there was a car slowing down in front of me. For one second, I thought - I'm going to hit this guy. And I might have, had he taken a few seconds longer to turn. Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. It will serve me well in the future. But, just as we have a required motorcycle safety test here in WA, maybe we need a mandated RV endorsement on the driver's license.

BTW - I've had motorcycles for literally 35+ years. I had an Ohio MC endorsement. Here in WA, I took the mandated test with 6 other bikers. 4 of us failed, including me. The guy before me actually dumped his Gold Wing in a low speed turn. I went back to that site a bunch of times after hours, running through the course again and again. I passed the second time.

John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2007, 08:40:13 AM »
==Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. ==

Many times I've heard how much longer it takes to stop a "Big Rig" than a car

Many times I've done the math

Guess what:  When the brakes lock up the only things that matter are your speed and the condition of the road.

Tires factor out, Number of tires factor out, Weight of the vehicle (Big/small) factors out, The only things that do not factor out are speed and road condition.  And when you are compareing two vehicles on the same stretch of road, road condition factors out

SPEED KILLS

Now: There is a bit more to this.. It can take longer to lock up the brakes on some vehicles, that will add to distance and of course if you are pulling a trailer (or toad) w/o trailer brakes... That really adds to stopping distance since not all wheels will lock up.  When that happens weight IS a factor, big time.
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2007, 09:44:20 AM »
What continues to suprise me is the responce of wearing a seat belt or doing something safer when conditions warrent them.  What most people seem to not identify is that most accidents are caused by the negligence of others.  Most people driving a $80K MH drive with due regard.  It the other party of the wreck that you need to worry about and when it happens its to late.  As for "we didn't do it when we were younger and we survived"....well we/you didn't have half the cars on the road, the drug/alcohol use, total mass of the vehicles and the ability to reach the speeds we do now and the most important.....those ones who didn't make it obviously are not able to voice there opinion so the argument is a little one sided I would say.

scottydl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2007, 10:15:30 AM »
What continues to suprise me is the responce of wearing a seat belt or doing something safer when conditions warrent them.  What most people seem to not identify is that most accidents are caused by the negligence of others.

Amen to that!  I am bothered by the idea/defense that people use, regarding non-use of safety devices (seatbelts, helmets, or whatever) because they say "I am a very conscience driver".  You forgot about all the other idiots on the road!  "I wear my seatbelt/helmet at high speeds / in bad weather / when I feel like I need to"  But the UNEXPECTED crashes are the ones that cause the most problems!  Everyone on a plane is going to sit down and buckle up when there's heavy turbulence... duh.  ;)  But when the plane seems to be flying along nice and smooth, and then *BAM* it drops 500 feet with no warning and all those milling around are bouncing around like pinballs in less than 1 second.  Vehicle crashes are the same way, you almost never see the worst ones coming (or have time to react to them, even if your brain knows what's about to happen) in time to avoid them.  If you don't want to be safe because you don't want to government to rule your decisions, then fine... but at least be safe so your family members don't have to bury you too early and your children don't have to grow up without a parent.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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thinkerbell

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2007, 11:28:17 AM »
I agree that it is important to take responsibility for one's actions and could never suggest otherwise. I am not sure where litigiousness came into the discussion, but I believe we can agree to disagree regarding the general issue and continue to get along famously.

 :)

Loves her 1990 26' Tioga like a good hair day

Clay L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2007, 06:48:29 PM »
==Visions of trying to stop 35 feet of MH as nimbly as Hyundai Sante Fe tightened my stomach and I can still recall that feeling. ==

Many times I've heard how much longer it takes to stop a "Big Rig" than a car

Many times I've done the math

Guess what:  When the brakes lock up the only things that matter are your speed and the condition of the road.

Tires factor out, Number of tires factor out, Weight of the vehicle (Big/small) factors out, The only things that do not factor out are speed and road condition.  And when you are compareing two vehicles on the same stretch of road, road condition factors out

SPEED KILLS

Now: There is a bit more to this.. It can take longer to lock up the brakes on some vehicles, that will add to distance and of course if you are pulling a trailer (or toad) w/o trailer brakes... That really adds to stopping distance since not all wheels will lock up.  When that happens weight IS a factor, big time.

You are right, but since minimum stopping distance is achieved just as - but before - the brakes lock and big rigs don't have brakes that can put that much torque on the wheels, weight does begin to play a part - but not as much as most people think.

The real problem is that big rigs don't have the brakes that will stop them as fast as a car.

Take a look at some real world data :

http://www.batesville.k12.in.us/physics/phynet/mechanics/Kinematics/BrakingDistData.html

Vehicle
 Average Stopping Distance at 55 mph (includes reaction time)
 
Passenger car
 190 ft.
Tractor-trailer (loaded) with cool brakes
 256 ft.
Tractor-trailer (loaded) with hot brakes
 430 ft.
Tractor-trailer (empty)
 249 ft.
Tractor only (bobtail)
 243 ft.
Clay (WA5NMR), Lee (Wife), Katie & Kelli (cats), Sali (toy poodle)
Settled down after full timing for eleven years and snowbirding for one year in a 2004 Winnebago 35N Sightseer, Workhorse W 20 Chassis. Honda toad

John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2007, 08:25:04 PM »
True story time here (No matter how careful you are it really don't matter)

My youngest sister is in the hospital for some surgery (She damaged her knee at Basketball Camp,  Should have stuck with Music, I keep telling people MUSIC is the key, sports are the problem but do they listen... Oh well)

She had a roomate (of course)

The Roommate had broken nearly every bone in her body, Arms, Legs, Ribs (Head was undamaged)

Well, the Chaplin (A very nice priest) came by to try and cheer her up (She was very athletic you see and this injury more or less did her serious damage)   

He ask her what she was doing when she got injured,  She would not say so he tried to guess... I told him he'd never guess but he kept trying... I told him not only would he never guess but he would not believe it if she told him.  He seemd to think that was untrue... Finally he was getting desprate so I ask her for permission to tell him.. She granted and I said:

"She was sleeping"  (He replied "I don't believe it")

She was indeed sleeping

In the back of a Winnie

The people driving were very good drivers and were busy going through an intersection WITH THE GREEN LIGHT when a semi truck ignored the red and jumped in bed with her

Now in her case seat belts would not have made a positive difference... It's one of those accidents where they don't help, In fact she was NOT thrown out of bed.

But the fact is, though the drivers were very careful  THEIR seat belts saved THEM from serious injury due to the Semi ignoring the red.. NOTE: I do not know if it was the truck or it's driver who ignored the red (yes a Semi Truck can choose not to stop, I do know how that can happen.  Happened to my brother once... Thankfully he did not run into anyone)
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2007, 11:06:13 PM »
called the state police today to ask about the tow dolley and just had to ask about the seat belt thing, guess what, he really didn't know.. he finally came up with, the front 2 seats must have their belts on, but no one else in the back unless they were under 15 years old, then it went down to 60lbs or less in a child seat. Now let me just say this...I have said time and time again I don't like being told "YOU HAVE TO" yes I know with out laws we would be in a big mess.. I do wear it in wifey's car..mainly because she tells me too, but also that dang dinging sound won't stop unless I do. My old truck..well it's just got lap belts..and from what they tell me, they can be alot worse than nothing at all. In the MH I wear it because it makes me feel more secure in that big ole seat, therefore I drive easier. The big problem wether you wear your selt belt or not, seems to be the other guy.. I mean yes if you make a mistake, fess up to it, but how many times have you driven in your car, truck or bike, or mh, and out of nowhere some idiot does something you wouldn't even think about doing when you were a kid??? that is the problem you can't fix or know when or were they will strike... so with that said...goodnight..kevin
2006 Tour
2011 Buick Enclave

gave up on that winning lotto ticket!

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2007, 11:39:25 PM »
GN  Glad you listen to your wife occasionally.  Been married 53 yrs and continue to error in the wife's mind and I feel like I can't do anything right.  Witnesses appear regularly on this Forum and constantly remind me that I need to wear a Helmet even when sitting in the chair at home.  AM I right Wendy, Ron, Ned, Tom?   LOL  Glad you got the scope on the MH belts.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

chaajoad

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2007, 12:37:27 AM »
John in Detroit -

I can not recall the last time I went through a green light without looking both ways as I approached, never assuming the other driver will stop. I do that EVERY light without fail while on the motorcycle. With that vehicle, I'm really at the mercy of other drivers. Getting T-boned at 15 mph is an inconvenience in my Explorer; it might mean I'd never walk again on my motorcycle.

As I drum into my 9 year old - and it may seem negative - never, ever believe the other driver will do what he/she should.

steve-hazel

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2007, 06:54:20 AM »
On the topic of seatbelts can someone tell me, if an RV says it sleep 6, does that mean that there will be 6 seatbelts too?   Or not?

Hazel
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 07:09:54 AM by steve-hazel »

John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2007, 07:02:49 AM »
To Steve or Hazel.. Yes, seat belts = sleeping positions

To Chaajoad:  I have seen situtations where one takes a LONG time to clear an intersection... Even got ticketed once because I could not clear an intersection till the vehicle in front of me moved (And did promptly) Cop said I entered on red (I did not)

Judge dismissed the charge..> Cop has since written me more tickets the judge has had to dismiss.

If there is a next time:  Well, he has had his last warning, next time I take HIM to court, he won't like that, neither will his boss.

But I can see many situtations where you'd not see a vehicle in the cross street till it's too late
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thinkerbell

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2007, 10:45:39 AM »
I agree that it would be bad to assume that just because I have a green and someone else has a red to assume they're going to stop. I don't even do that in my regular vehicle where people tend to drive nicely!

And when my kids are in locations where there are lights in the rv, you can bet your sweet bippie, they're in seatbelts for that very reason.

 :D
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Shayne

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #63 on: June 06, 2007, 10:48:01 AM »
Assumptions can be deadly.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

tyefighter

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #64 on: June 06, 2007, 07:49:59 PM »
I drove tow truck for 4 years, only saw one fatal that was waring the belt.  Friend was hit by a semi that didn't see him stopped in the middle of the road in the fog.  Friend was ejected from the car and killed, no belt.  He always said it made his back hurt to much, doesn't hurt any more.  BTW, passenger was fine, some bruising.  I started wearing seat belts when I started driving, just felt it was the thing to do. 
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2007, 08:42:10 PM »
My old truck..well it's just got lap belts..and from what they tell me, they can be allot worse than nothing at all.

Unfortunately this can't be farther from the truth.  Studies (and personal experience) show that the use of a lap belt (even improperly worn) cause internal injuries to the bowel, bladder, pelvis and if really high, liver( along with more superficail injuries from impact within the compartment, this happens with any type of belt).  If you are ejected out of a vehicle with the force needed to cause these types of injuries when restrained then you will more than likely cause the same type of injuries plus spinal injuries, head injuries (closed), any/all of the common chest injuries, plus soft tissue trauma.  This is called "multi systems trauma"  these are the people that die several days later (if they lived  to get to the hospital) in the hospital from multi system failures due to the overall insult to there bodies that can not be reversed with intervention.  This is compared to the isolated abdominal injuries seen with lap belts that surgical intervention can intervene.  Don't get me wrong the lap belts cause problems but I would rather be alive with problems than dead with problems.  I have yet seen a good outcome from someone being ejected but have seen allot (over 10 years worth) of good outcomes (down right miracles) from restraint systems.  Once again its not what someone is telling you what to do, its doing what is right for you and your family.

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2007, 08:50:32 PM »
Years ago My wife was driving and hit Black Ice and slide spinning down the Hill and collided with and headache wall over a small Spillway.  She was not wearing a seat belt at the time.  It tossed her to the passenger side into a fetal position knocking her out.  Had she been wearing the belt she would not be alive today.  The driveshaft of the car came up thru the drivers seat cutting it in half and penetrated the windshield  of the car.  This was a Chrysler NewYorker.   Thank God she didn't wear the seat belt that day.  However with that said  We NEVER  get into our Cars without buckling up and doubt very much if we ever will.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

scottydl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2007, 09:19:19 PM »
My old truck..well it's just got lap belts..and from what they tell me, they can be alot worse than nothing at all.

"They" are dead wrong.  The #1 thing that seatbelts do that prevent injury, is prevent ejection from the vehicle in the event of a crash.  A lap belt will do that 100% effectively if worn correctly.  True, you may end up with some injuries that would be prevented with a lap/shoulder combo... but at least you'll still be in the car (much safer than getting thrown out and having your own car or another roll right over you, which is what kills many "ejectees").  Keep in mind newer/smarter belts and retractors do much more than just prevent ejection, but back in the day that's all that seatbelt designers really thought about.
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John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2007, 08:25:09 AM »
Re the statement about lap only belts being worse than nothing

Nothing could  be farther from the truth

I have beein in situtations where a lap belt kept me IN the driver's seat (See some of the stories I've posted up thread about people who fell out of the vehicle, thus causing a fatal accident,  I've seen three of those accidents myself)

I've stood on the brakes and had a passenger, properly restrained by the belt NOT hit his head on the windshield

The lap belt makes the most difference. The shoulder belt adds some more safety.   Air bags add cost.
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dsolberg

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2007, 05:30:58 PM »
We recently developed an RV Driving Safety Program for RVSEF (Recreation Vehicle Safety & Education Foundation) and found several "interesting" and "confusing" issues related to seat belts, road use laws, and motorhomes.  This program was developed with assistance from NHTSA, The National Safety Council, The DOT, Iowa Highway Patrol, and several National organizations.

The first thing to understand is that a motorhome, anything over 10,000# and under 26,000# is not recognized in road use laws!  When we researched speed limits, driving with propane, and other regulations, we were told the laws were written for cars, trucks, and commercial vehicles over 26,000#.  A motorhome is never quantified and is left to the interpretation of the state and officers within that state. 

Second, RVIA (Recreation Vehicle Industry Association) is one of the few governing bodies that regulates motorhomes.  According to their requirements, motorhomes must have seat belt capacity for the listed sleeping capacity.  Some manufacturers list their sleeping capacity as 2, therefore only driver and passenger belts are installed.  This reduces the liability of occupants getting injured and suing.  ONLY REDUCES!  It's amazing what happens in lawsuits. 

Seat Belt Laws...Every state has their own useage laws, and every law enforcement officer has his/her interpretation of that law!  Many states only require belts in the front seat, however, WI requires all passengers to be belted.  As I stated before, motorhomes are not specifically listed and therefore fall under interpretation.  I was deposed in 2 multi-million dollar lawsuits were the driver was not wearing a seatbelt and the lawyers made this VERY clear!  Which brings me to my next point...WEAR YOUR SEATBELT!  The driver was not wearing his seatbelt and was driving on an interstate in CA with his grand daughter sitting either on his lap or on the doghouse.  A truck sideswiped him and he over-corrected, hit the center pilons, and turned over on the driver's side throwing him out the door.  He was killed, the grand daughter lost a leg, and the others in the vehicle were injured but survived.  I learned an awful lot about seatbelts during these trials.  The estate sued the motorhome manufacturer because they advertised the unit was built so strong you didn't need belts.  It had a solid steel front cage, perimeter steel, and unibody construction.  They won $4 million because all the brochure photography did not show seatbelts.  They were all tucked under the cushions to look pretty! 

It's your decision, however, here is what I learned about seatbelts.  According to the National Safety Council, seatbelts reduce fatal injury for passengers in a car by 45%.  There are three crashes that take place in a collision
1. Vehicle impact - usually takes only 1/10th of a second
2. Human impact - occupant hitting the steering wheel or dash
3. Internal impact - organs moving forward and hitting other organs or skeleton

Various parts of the body can absorb different amounts of energy without injury.  That is why seatbelts are designed to be positioned over the strongest parts. 

Child restraints are another issue in a motorhome.  To be properly secure, a childseat must be installed in a "fixed" forward facing seat.  Most motorhomes do not have a place for them, unless they have a booth dinette.

Seatbelts also keep you in the seat as stated in an earlier post.  In your car, you are more likely to be "cocooned" in a bucket seat with armrests, counsels, etc.  In a MH you are often on top of the pedestal seat and can be thrown off easily.

In a MH, the initial impact doesn't cause the greatest injury, it's secondary, you hitting something, or something hitting you.  Remember, anything not secure in the unit becomes a missle, so take down the picture of kids, the porcelin collectibles, and even put away the tissue box.  The Iowa Highway Patrol has a documented case of a woman being knocked unconsious during an accident by the tissue box flying from the back window and the corner hitting her head at just the right/or wrong angle.

scottydl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #70 on: June 07, 2007, 06:41:35 PM »
dsolberg, that is the best information I have EVER seen on this topic, EVER!  THANK YOU.  Bottom line is, laws can be different or at least perceived differently depending on where you are.  But seatbelts will keep you much safer regardless of where you are, or even the type of motorhome you are within.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #71 on: June 07, 2007, 08:27:16 PM »
I've said this before but I don't recall if I put it in this thread.

I've seen far too many accidents (One is too many, and I've seen way more than that) where the survivor had a seat belt on, the deceased did not.  Or the person with no or very minor (Band aid level) injuries was belted, and the person in the EMS was not, or both (One accident had 3 people, One left in a body bag, one in an ambulance, The one with the seat belt, WALKED away. (Well, road in the police car more than likely, courtesy transport)

I've seen accidents that happened because someone was not belted, would not have even happened if they had been belted

I've not been in accidents where I'm 100% convinced I would have been, save for the belt (I am so sold on seat belts that in my first car I bought and installed them)

Lots of evidence show belts save lives.
 
Air bags on the other hand I prefer to avoid, I think they cause problems.  Though I'm fairly happy to say I've not had the chance to test that personally.. Came close once (Was not driving) but she managed to keep it between the imaginary fences (There was no fence, there was also no shoulder.   A recent cartoon describes it fairly well (BC)  I should just provide a link to it but  Well,, Here it is:  BC, A journy of a thousand feet   Had she not kept it on the road,  That's not far from the scene.  At least she used the car's best safety device following that turn... The accelerator pedal... (The less you press the safer it is)
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dsolberg

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #72 on: June 07, 2007, 09:22:13 PM »
Keep in mind...motorhome, or at least class A motorhomes, don't have airbags!  As I stated earlier, motorhomes are not mandated like automobiles.  Some units still only offer lap belts!  We did not get fuel injected engines and subsequently unleaded fuel engines until 1990 when Ford came into the class A market.  Autos had them back in 1974. 

As for airbags in motorhomes, can you imagine the size pump needed to fill a bag in 1/10th of a second to protect someone in a 102.5" wide vehicle with a windshield height of 5 feet?  It would be better to bring back the overhead spring loaded bed...at least the matress would fall down quicker!  And to think I used to hate that?

One last point on airbags, the ones in your car and tow vehicles.  It is now recommended to place your hands at 3 and 9 o'clock vs. the old 10 & 2.  No, it's not so you'll get to the campground an hour earlier (couldn't resist)  rather, with the airbags in the steering wheel, if one is deployed, they are designed more vertical, meaning less bag or an indentation on the sides.  If your hands are at 10 & 2, an airbag can blow your hands off the wheel, and most likely dislocate your shoulders. 

kevin

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #73 on: June 07, 2007, 09:33:02 PM »
My mh weighs 32,000 lbs so what does that fall under???
2nd any one can sue any one for anything. Case and point.. man sues neighbor, because the neighbor's dog bites him..he wins $14,000 dollars, problem is...he was in the neighbors back yard beating the dog with a stick...UH???? save us all shoot a lawyer... Just Joking..kevin
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Karl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2007, 02:31:48 AM »
Quote
As for airbags in motorhomes, can you imagine the size pump needed to fill a bag in 1/10th of a second to protect someone in a 102.5" wide vehicle with a windshield height of 5 feet?
Just for the record, 'airbags' don't use a pump, but silver azide (AgN3); an explosive, that inflates the bag with nitrogen very quickly!
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2007, 09:42:36 AM »
Just for the record, 'airbags' don't use a pump, but silver azide (AgN3); an explosive, that inflates the bag with nitrogen very quickly!


Yet another reason I don't like Airbags... Explosive is another way of saying BOMB
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scottydl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2007, 09:56:41 AM »
Yet another reason I don't like Airbags... Explosive is another way of saying BOMB

How do you think an internal combustion engine works?  Thousands of gasoline explosions every single minute!  ;)

Seriously though, the risk of injury from airbags is very low WHEN THEY ARE USED WITH SEATBELTS AS INTENDED.  Maybe the early generation one-size-fits-all airbags had some problems, but the systems are getting smarter as far as knowing how fast/hard the airbag should deploy based on the occupants weight, speed of vehicle/collision, etc.  Side curtain airbags are a great innovation IMO because they address occupant protection during a side impact (T-bone) crash, largely ignored until recent years... previously cars were only tested and designed for front-end crashes since they are most common.
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ArdraF

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2007, 02:11:37 PM »
Thankfully I was wearing a seatbelt back in 1965 when we were stopped by traffic on the freeway on a rainy night.  A 16 year old boy rearended us at more than 65 mph and caused a five-car pile-up.  My seat came out of its tracks and I would have been thrown through the windshield had the seatbelt not done it's job.  I put my seatbelt on as soon as I get in the car.

The Japanese did a study in which they found that unbelted back-seat passengers killed more people in the front seat as they flew forward than were killed from other causes.  When I buckle up, everyone else does too or we don't move the car.

Our neighbor down the street who was not wearing her seatbelt was thrown from her sunroof when her car rolled several times.  Yes, she died on the scene.  People who do not wear seatbelts are high-risk people IMHO.

ArdraF
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 02:15:08 PM by ArdraF »
ArdraF
:D :D

JRickey

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2007, 02:20:41 PM »
Airbags aren't the only explosives in your car.  Belt pre-tensioners are a explosive charge that tightens up your belt on impact.  I'm assuming the new responsive head rests are in the same boat but have no experience with them.  Its my option that the airbag was as important to passenger safety today as was the seatbelt when first introduced. 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 06:25:54 PM by JRickey »

Carl L

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2007, 03:04:48 PM »
Airbags are the only explosives in your car.  Belt pre-tensioners are a explosive charge that tightens up your belt on impact.  I'm assuming the new responsive head rests are in the same boat but have no experience with them.  Its my option that the airbag was as important to passenger safety today as was the seatbelt when first introduced. 

On the contrary, gasoline is an excellent high explosive at concentrations of around 1:19 with air.   All those loverly explosions you see in movies involve gasoline.   Poisonous, highly flammable and explosive -- great stuff.
Carl L/LA   [Forum Staff]  KI6SEZ

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KodiakRV

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2007, 03:43:05 PM »
Keep in mind...motorhome, or at least class A motorhomes, don't have airbags!  ... 
Is that true?  Even newer class A's?  I didn't know that.  My Super-C has driver and passenger airbags.  The passenger airbag can be turned off, if need be.
Frank
Florida

scottydl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2007, 04:25:33 PM »
My Super-C has driver and passenger airbags.  The passenger airbag can be turned off, if need be.

That's because it (like any Class C) is built from a truck/van cab... when it rolls off the assembly line, it is equipped the same whether it's a delivery truck, school bus, or Super C motorhome.  Class A's are pretty much all customized as far as body and interior features go, depending on the manufacturer.  Sadly, since there is no federal mandate requiring crash-testing and airbags in Class A's... they don't install them as it would raise the production cost too much.   :-\
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KodiakRV

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2007, 04:52:09 PM »
...Class A's are pretty much all customized as far as body and interior features go, depending on the manufacturer.  Sadly, since there is no federal mandate requiring crash-testing and airbags in Class A's... they don't install them as it would raise the production cost too much.   :-\

I guess I should have realized that since I have seen ads from class A chassis manufacturers that show their product is pretty much just a frame, engine, wheels, and a steering wheel sticking up in the air.
Frank
Florida

John From Detroit

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2007, 06:11:39 PM »
The seat belt devices I have seen were non-explosive, they were inertial locks (Swinging weights and a toothed wheel)

Responsive head rests I've never seen

But the difference between an air bag and the internal combustion engine is that the explosing in the engine goes off in a nice HEAVY metal box designed to contain it.. NOT IN MY FACE which is NOT designed to contain it

Studies say airbags make only a slight improvement over seat belts... I have seen many accidents that are simular to ones where I or others walked with seat belts but the people in the car needed EMS due to air bag injuries.  The last one was (Conviently) in front of a hospital.
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Karl

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2007, 12:10:33 PM »
Many of the new cars built since 1999 use the explosive pre-tensioner in addition to the 'swinging-weight' spool locking mechanism; not as  a replacement for it. Check THIS PAGE for a good explanation of how they work.

Carl,
Quote
Airbags are the only explosives in your car.
I think he meant to say 'aren't' ;)
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2007, 06:47:20 PM »
Many of the new cars built since 1999 use the explosive pre-tensioner in addition to the 'swinging-weight' spool locking mechanism; not as  a replacement for it. Check THIS PAGE for a good explanation of how they work.

Carl,I think he meant to say 'aren't' ;)

Your right and I did.  thanks.  All cars built today and most people don't have gasoline in the passenger compartment.  Not to nit pick but gasoline is considered flammable not explosive (DOT 1200 series) and the vapor from it with concentrations of at least 1.4 % is, at best, considered a low or deflagrating explosive (less than the speed of sound, black powder, magnesium) not a high explosive (supersonic, tnt, anfo ect).  There's a big difference chemically between high (detonation) and low (deflagration).

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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #86 on: June 17, 2007, 03:06:58 AM »
I was reading this thread and asking myself what is the question?  Yes you wear seatbelts, law or not.  Why should you wear seatbelts, it is because you will die if something bad happens.  It is common sense, not a real law, just being mature and real.  You smoke too much, you die.  You drink too much, you die, it is real simple.  As far as motorcycle helmet use goes, we need more donors to keep our aged bodies going.  I do take the Constitutional side to helmets, seatbelts and other "you make the choice things".  Folks say it costs money when you ride without a helmet or drive without a seatbelt and end up in the hospital.  I cannot put a price on Liberty like many bean counters can, but I can say that you make a law or take my freedom because it costs too much, you are unAmerican.  It is simple, it gets down to individual responsibility and just doing the right thing without "Big Brother" over your shoulder.  Yes, I wear a helmet and a seatbelt because it makes sense, not because some anti-constitiutonal government agency proclaims I need to.  Seems our Constitiution no longer means anything to anyone anymore.
Phil
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #87 on: June 17, 2007, 01:32:50 PM »
motojavaphil:

In 1983 I made a post titled "A cool million"

I won't re-do the entire post but it addressed the issue with seat belts and helmets and such. 

The title of the post was chosen by taking the just released Michigan State Police news release on the cost of highway fatalities, which estimated the cost to the state in 1981 dollars,  This included many things including cost of clean up, cost of investigation, lost wages, medical payments, increased insurance costs and much, much, much more.  Due to the nature of the data and how long it took to gather and process... The estimate was 1981 dollars

When I took the figures, multiple by the last two US government CPI increases to bring it up to 1983 it came out to almost exactly $1,000,000.00 per person going SPLAT on the freeway.

Now, understand as a dispatcher I sent many a trooper to many a fatal accident.

So, here is my position on choice when ti comes to seat belts and helmets.

You should be allowed to do as you wish, However, IF you wish to ride w/o a helmet or seat belt (Depending on vehicle) you should have to post a bond worth 1,000,000 in 1983 dollars (What is that today, about 4-5 Million?) so that should you off yourself by being stupid, the state won't suffer the loss.

NOTE: The State Police Estimate above did not include the emotional cost to your family and Friends.
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #88 on: June 17, 2007, 02:25:50 PM »
Since I started this post, I'll respond with my method of handling the situation.

First, I appreciate that most agreed that it's extremely unwise and unsafe to travel very far in any vehicle unbelted.  That's not to say you should have a few strong belts prior to the trip, however. ;D ;D

To accommodate my family for the short reunion trip I actually made two trips (limiting the seating to number of available belts) and thus had the MH available at the destination for convenience of comfort breaks.  Problem solved.

Thanks, lou
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #89 on: June 17, 2007, 03:04:51 PM »
Good for you Lou. And I hope you all had a great time at the reunion.

Enjoy
Wendy
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Re: Is it unlawful or just unsafe?
« Reply #90 on: June 17, 2007, 06:55:33 PM »
John, I do not think there is a disagreement between us about highway slaughter.  I cannot and will not put a price on Liberty.  Consider the amount of damage and death involved with an HDT or MH crash, should they carry 5M in insurance.  Each time I drive by a bar and see guys our age riding their bikes without helmets after a few beers makes me cringe.  I am proud of our Constitution and really feel it is being shredded each day that goes by.  If a seatbelt is there, wear it and if you ride, wear a helmet and keep Government out of the People's business.
Phil 
Phil, Carol, Ariel, Grey Lady
2009 Carriage Cameo
2016 Ram CTC, 4x4