just bought a 50's Shasta trailer that was stripped down to a tin box. im good with everything but electrical. I have absolutely no idea where to start. people keep telling me, you need this and you need that-none are the same. All i want is for now, Electricity. In the furure, i want to do solar, but its not in my techers budget. Can someone please say, "you need this" and please be specific-electrical is absolutely foreign to me.
electrical
- Thread starter Korby
- Start date
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Arch Hoagland
Well-known member
Does it have the propane lanterns with the old Coleman mantles that made light instead of electric bulbs?
Is there a battery box on the front tongue of the trailer and are there wires coming to it?
Is there a battery box on the front tongue of the trailer and are there wires coming to it?
mikeylikesit
Well-known member
this electricity that you speak of......does it need to be 12v or 120v?
sorry to be cheeky, but you'll have to give us a little more to go on....
how big is the trailer? Do you plan to have appliances? Possibly a generator? toilet-sink?
if you plan to camp in campgrounds only and rely on the CG's facilities, you just need a big extension cord and some sort of distribution system.
we don't have enough information to give you any specific advice...
sorry to be cheeky, but you'll have to give us a little more to go on....
how big is the trailer? Do you plan to have appliances? Possibly a generator? toilet-sink?
if you plan to camp in campgrounds only and rely on the CG's facilities, you just need a big extension cord and some sort of distribution system.
we don't have enough information to give you any specific advice...
Rene T
Site Team
Welcome to the forum.
Here's a couple of places to start:
http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm
Don't miss continuing on to part 2 at the end.
http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm
Jack has a lot of solar stuff, but for the most part, you can ignore that if you just want basics. There is a good bit of non-solar stuff in his articles.
http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm
Don't miss continuing on to part 2 at the end.
http://www.jackdanmayer.com/rv_electrical_and_solar.htm
Jack has a lot of solar stuff, but for the most part, you can ignore that if you just want basics. There is a good bit of non-solar stuff in his articles.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
There will be two electric power systems in the trailer. One is 120vac, lke the wall outlets in your house. It is available for use when the trailer is plugged into external 120v power via its "shore power cord", which is may have a larger-tna- houshold type plug on the end. That would be an RV 30A plug that looks like this one:
https://www.delcity.net/store/30-Amp-RV-Replacement-Plug/p_823197.h_823198.r_IF1003
The other electric power system is 12vdc. like in your car. It basically comes from a battery carried somewhere onboard, but there should also be a 12v converter that supplies 12v power when the 120v shore cord is plugged in, thus saving the battery amps.
This article in the RVForum Library explains the electrical baisics. It's written for a motorhome, but trailers are the same except they lack the engine driven alternator as an alternate 12v source and an onboard generator as an alternate 120v source.
http://www.rvforum.net/joomla/index.php/electrical-systems-primer-spare-64
https://www.delcity.net/store/30-Amp-RV-Replacement-Plug/p_823197.h_823198.r_IF1003
The other electric power system is 12vdc. like in your car. It basically comes from a battery carried somewhere onboard, but there should also be a 12v converter that supplies 12v power when the 120v shore cord is plugged in, thus saving the battery amps.
This article in the RVForum Library explains the electrical baisics. It's written for a motorhome, but trailers are the same except they lack the engine driven alternator as an alternate 12v source and an onboard generator as an alternate 120v source.
http://www.rvforum.net/joomla/index.php/electrical-systems-primer-spare-64
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Ok you need power.
If the trailer is over about 2,000 pounds it will have a aux brake system that is electrically operated. You need at least a small (Say group 24 Marine Deep cycle) to operate the brakes in a "Break-a-way" situtation this can be kept charged by a battery tender in storage and your tow vehicle on the road.. Or by a converter inside.
IF the unit has 12 volt lights, fans, water pump and such a bigger battery may be nice. My recommendation is a PAIR of GC-2 Golf Car battereies in SERIES (two six volt in series makes 12) You will then need a way to keep them up when c camping
A progressive 9260 does that nicely (around 200 bucks give or take a bit)
For 120 volt.. Since it is a trailer you do not have a generator (If you want to put one in this gets more complex) How much power do you need? Most single A/C units eat 30 amps, most double (or triple) 50 amps. So the number of A/C's if any counts. NO AC go with 30 amp.
A shore cord (get one already made) a surge protector (Progressive INdustries HW-30c, can be added later but it is an "Insurance policy") a main breaker box with a 30 amp breaker and as I recall only so many branch breakers.
Then branch breakers for your 120 volt deivces and outlets A GFCI or multiple GFCI's for "Wet" areas.. Most trailers the Main GFCI is in the bathroom, and the kitchen and patio "Chain" off that.
We can help you with wiring.. OH, on the Main breaker box Neutral and Ground are NOT bonded as they are on the main box at your house (Specify it's for RV or use a "Sub" type box and feed via a main breaker)
Really very simple.. Where are you (general area) perhaps someone can help.
(General area.. IE: Wyoming,, No need for the city at this time)
If the trailer is over about 2,000 pounds it will have a aux brake system that is electrically operated. You need at least a small (Say group 24 Marine Deep cycle) to operate the brakes in a "Break-a-way" situtation this can be kept charged by a battery tender in storage and your tow vehicle on the road.. Or by a converter inside.
IF the unit has 12 volt lights, fans, water pump and such a bigger battery may be nice. My recommendation is a PAIR of GC-2 Golf Car battereies in SERIES (two six volt in series makes 12) You will then need a way to keep them up when c camping
A progressive 9260 does that nicely (around 200 bucks give or take a bit)
For 120 volt.. Since it is a trailer you do not have a generator (If you want to put one in this gets more complex) How much power do you need? Most single A/C units eat 30 amps, most double (or triple) 50 amps. So the number of A/C's if any counts. NO AC go with 30 amp.
A shore cord (get one already made) a surge protector (Progressive INdustries HW-30c, can be added later but it is an "Insurance policy") a main breaker box with a 30 amp breaker and as I recall only so many branch breakers.
Then branch breakers for your 120 volt deivces and outlets A GFCI or multiple GFCI's for "Wet" areas.. Most trailers the Main GFCI is in the bathroom, and the kitchen and patio "Chain" off that.
We can help you with wiring.. OH, on the Main breaker box Neutral and Ground are NOT bonded as they are on the main box at your house (Specify it's for RV or use a "Sub" type box and feed via a main breaker)
Really very simple.. Where are you (general area) perhaps someone can help.
(General area.. IE: Wyoming,, No need for the city at this time)
H
Hammster
Guest
So you are saying there are no wires, outlets, or anything electrical in there right now? Or maybe some amount?
Regardless, you need to hire an electrician familiar with RV electrical systems. Or, as John suggests, there may be someone here on the forum in your area who can help. Electric is nothing to mess with if you don't know what you're doing.
I do want to say that modern RV air conditioners will work just fine with a trailer set up for 30A service. It's what I have on my Arctic Fox and I don't have to be careful about what I use or don't use when hooked up for 30A service. However, only 1 AC unit. If you want to get 2, then yes, you'll need 50A service for sure.
Regardless, you need to hire an electrician familiar with RV electrical systems. Or, as John suggests, there may be someone here on the forum in your area who can help. Electric is nothing to mess with if you don't know what you're doing.
I do want to say that modern RV air conditioners will work just fine with a trailer set up for 30A service. It's what I have on my Arctic Fox and I don't have to be careful about what I use or don't use when hooked up for 30A service. However, only 1 AC unit. If you want to get 2, then yes, you'll need 50A service for sure.
Nomadb1
Well-known member
So I'm going over to Korby's today to wire some things up. I have the 240v ac panel in but just wanted to verify something before throwing switches.
The (AC System) Neutral and ground both have their OWN Buss bars and are NOT linked together.
Does the AC Ground buss bar get grounded to the trailer frame also or just the ground from shore power?
I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.
Thanks,
Brian
The (AC System) Neutral and ground both have their OWN Buss bars and are NOT linked together.
Does the AC Ground buss bar get grounded to the trailer frame also or just the ground from shore power?
I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.
Thanks,
Brian
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
Yes, the ground bus should be connected to the trailer frame, but not bonded to the neutral. With a 240/120v panel, I expect you're setting the trailer up for 50 amp service with no actual 240v appliances planned.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
NY_Dutch gave sound advice.
This is nitpicking, but technically, the ground bus is "grounded" only to the shore power source ground wire. The trailer frame is grounded TO the bus bar in the same manner as the branch circuit grounds, i.e. the purpose of the connection is to safely carry any short-circuits amps to the external ground. The trailer frame itself rarely has an earth ground of its own, so the ground bus in the panel cannot ground TO it. Any current flow would be from the frame to the panel ground bus and then to the shore cord ground.
This is nitpicking, but technically, the ground bus is "grounded" only to the shore power source ground wire. The trailer frame is grounded TO the bus bar in the same manner as the branch circuit grounds, i.e. the purpose of the connection is to safely carry any short-circuits amps to the external ground. The trailer frame itself rarely has an earth ground of its own, so the ground bus in the panel cannot ground TO it. Any current flow would be from the frame to the panel ground bus and then to the shore cord ground.
sadixon49
Well-known member
Yes, the code requires that the ground and neutral be isolated, and the ground must be connected to the chassis at an accessible location.
Nomadb1
Well-known member
LOONG day but we got a lot done. Ran all the 12V wiring through the body, finished all the 120v circuits. Still need to finish installing the battery box and wiring to the inverter. Also wire the 240v stove once the counter/cabinets are in(The only reason for the 50 amp service.)
So while at lowes I ran into a gent who was shocked that I bought a 100amp fuse to feed the 2000 watt inverter. He was convinced I had no clue. (as he was an avid RVer who'd wired RVs and done electrical since he was 13) I was setting it up to burn the whole thing to the ground and that my fuse would never blow.
If I did my math correctly that fuse is actually undersized and will blow long before the Inverter reaches it's max output. I tried to size the fuse so it would support a 1.3 amp draw residential fridge(that actually only draws .8 amps per my killawatt) plus a little bit. I'm hoping that this size fuse will also help keep my trojan 105's from frying do to too rapid of a draw but maybe that is wishful thinking. So was the guy right and I'm baked or is my math faulty and setting myself up for failure?
After a little research it turns out he WAS right -sort of - my fuse size is probably OK, but the type is wrong - it likely would blow, and then weld itself right back together again!.... back to the drawing board..
Thanks,
Brian
NY_Dutch said:
So while at lowes I ran into a gent who was shocked that I bought a 100amp fuse to feed the 2000 watt inverter. He was convinced I had no clue. (as he was an avid RVer who'd wired RVs and done electrical since he was 13) I was setting it up to burn the whole thing to the ground and that my fuse would never blow.
If I did my math correctly that fuse is actually undersized and will blow long before the Inverter reaches it's max output. I tried to size the fuse so it would support a 1.3 amp draw residential fridge(that actually only draws .8 amps per my killawatt) plus a little bit. I'm hoping that this size fuse will also help keep my trojan 105's from frying do to too rapid of a draw but maybe that is wishful thinking. So was the guy right and I'm baked or is my math faulty and setting myself up for failure?
After a little research it turns out he WAS right -sort of - my fuse size is probably OK, but the type is wrong - it likely would blow, and then weld itself right back together again!.... back to the drawing board..
Thanks,
Brian
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
More than a few RVers get confused about AC vs DC power draw (amps). Also peak vs continuous power draw and the meaning of the Amp Ratings on electrical devices. None of it is difficult, but it's not a subject that most people ever become familiar with in their daily lives.
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
With a 240v stove, I assume there are no plans to use this RV anywhere that does not have a proper 50 amp service.
sadixon49
Well-known member
Nomadb1 said:
1st, 2000W should be about 166 amps of 12 volts, I would use a 175 amp fuse. You are allowed to go up to the next available common size fuse.
2nd, no f***ing way UL, CSA, or EU would ever approve a fuse that would blow then weld itself back together. I suspect you were given bad information, possibly from the internet, no bad info there, yea right.
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
Gotta agree with sadixon - that a fuse would weld itself back together is [barely] conceivable but extremely unlikely.
For loads in the 100A-300A range, fuse types ANL or ANN are commonly used. The difference is whether they are fast acting or slow-blow. An ANL fuse will tolerate over-current for a few seconds before blowing, while the ANN type is instant. Neither one is more likely to "weld itself back together". However, a fuse that is far under-rated for the potential load is somewhat more plausibly subject to that welding phenomenon, simply because the arc can jump across the contacts. A 1A fuse in a circuit designed to carry 200A is more likely to do that than, say, a 100A fuse.
In my opinion, your choice of a 100A fuse is cutting it a bit too close . Once you have the big inverter installed, you will occasionally find other uses for it and 100A (1200 watts output max) is easily reached. I would opt for at least 150A, and there is little reason to select less than 200A unless the wiring from inverter to battery is smaller than 3/0. In no case should the fuse rating ever be greater than the max amp rating of the battery cables.
For loads in the 100A-300A range, fuse types ANL or ANN are commonly used. The difference is whether they are fast acting or slow-blow. An ANL fuse will tolerate over-current for a few seconds before blowing, while the ANN type is instant. Neither one is more likely to "weld itself back together". However, a fuse that is far under-rated for the potential load is somewhat more plausibly subject to that welding phenomenon, simply because the arc can jump across the contacts. A 1A fuse in a circuit designed to carry 200A is more likely to do that than, say, a 100A fuse.
In my opinion, your choice of a 100A fuse is cutting it a bit too close . Once you have the big inverter installed, you will occasionally find other uses for it and 100A (1200 watts output max) is easily reached. I would opt for at least 150A, and there is little reason to select less than 200A unless the wiring from inverter to battery is smaller than 3/0. In no case should the fuse rating ever be greater than the max amp rating of the battery cables.
John From Detroit
Well-known member
Ther are two forces at work or 3 when fuse blows
Voltage, current and voltage.. Yes voltage comes in twice.
The gap in the fuse has to be big enough to stop the HIGHER voltage
So what causes the HIGHER voltage (Hint is is more than 14.5 volts) INDUCTION
If current is flowing in a whire.. it exhibits a form of Inertia.. When the fuse blows. the electrons "Back up" just like water in a pipe and try to "Jump The Gap".
Inverters are not inductive loads. but the wires that feed them are.
Voltage, current and voltage.. Yes voltage comes in twice.
The gap in the fuse has to be big enough to stop the HIGHER voltage
So what causes the HIGHER voltage (Hint is is more than 14.5 volts) INDUCTION
If current is flowing in a whire.. it exhibits a form of Inertia.. When the fuse blows. the electrons "Back up" just like water in a pipe and try to "Jump The Gap".
Inverters are not inductive loads. but the wires that feed them are.
