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Author Topic: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?  (Read 2208 times)

blw2

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Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« on: June 13, 2018, 08:20:36 AM »
This was in my google news feed this AM
https://www.outsideonline.com/2315626/vanlife-ruining-camping

Something I have been concerned about in the back of my mind, ever since the walmart I saw from the highway in Flagstaff last summer...well maybe it was even before that...but it's the first example I can remember seeing.  There we RV's of all sorts parked on the side of the road approaching the walmart, basically the service road on the other side of the interstate fence....  I think the parking lot was choked up too...

The other time that comes to mind was when we evacuated for a hurricane and ended up at a bass pro/walmart/costco parking lot that looked like a hoover city...that was different because most weren't full time van livers, but still the impression left of the site of it, the trash and such, etc.. isn't good.....

Anyway, just something to think about....
how full time rv living is different but similar to this homeless vanlife thing
how the increase in this sort of traffic makes more places outlaw the practice that RV'ers enjoy while enroute.  Stealth users and those that cause problems exponentiate the problem
how it affects how the non-rving public might misinterpret RVing as being the same as vanlife
how it could make getting reservation in places like state parks more difficult....
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
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FenderP

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 08:49:01 AM »
That's a very interesting read, thanks for sharing.

Now I'm going to call everyone I've told how much we love Rving and try to convince them it sucks, run away from it, it's expensive and not worth it!  :~)
I'd rather you offend me with the truth than appease me with a lie.

SargeW

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 01:36:31 PM »
All of the observations in the article are possible, and even more. The booming economy has had several misc effects. More people not being able to find affordable housing, to more people being able to afford some type of RV in which to travel and explore, and everything in between. It all points to the need to be a planner in your travels, especially if you want to be in a popular area in a certain time of year. Some folks don't mind the planning (us) and do it regularly,  and others hate making any kind  of predetermined stops.  Those types are going to have a harder time finding the "just pull over and stop" places. 
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aguablanco

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 03:21:24 PM »
This is no different than getting a permit to raft the Colorado River thru Grand Canyon or almost any other expedition length river west of the Rockies. We can all hope that our "competition" decides to quit the game, soon, but that probably won't happen anytime in the near future. I have found, over the last 4+ years, that it is not all that hard to get spots in National Parks, and in and around other attractions, if one is patient and a bit flexible. It also helps to start early and be very persistent. These type of articles really amuse me though. It seems as if some of our fellow RV'ers feel that there is, or at least should be, a seniority system involved in getting a space instead of first come first served. Maybe we should all be greatful that we are able to travel and camp as we do and quit, at least a bit of, the whining. BTW 4000 miles this year and been able to get a camp everywhere we wanted.
RichH
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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 03:29:58 PM »
This is no different than getting a permit to raft the Colorado River thru Grand Canyon or almost any other expedition length river west of the Rockies. We can all hope that our "competition" decides to quit the game, soon, but that probably won't happen anytime in the near future. I have found, over the last 4+ years, that it is not all that hard to get spots in National Parks, and in and around other attractions, if one is patient and a bit flexible. It also helps to start early and be very persistent. These type of articles really amuse me though. It seems as if some of our fellow RV'ers feel that there is, or at least should be, a seniority system involved in getting a space instead of first come first served. Maybe we should all be greatful that we are able to travel and camp as we do and quit, at least a bit of, the whining. BTW 4000 miles this year and been able to get a camp everywhere we wanted.
RichH

I am one that plans way ahead, usually 9-12 months in advance, and I am almost always successful getting the space I want at the location I want. This year things are taking a turn. They closed the entire San Juan National Forest at my summer destination, where I had reservations for 4 weeks. So I turned to the Oregon coast.

After about a half dozen calls to RV Resorts/Parks and State Parks via Reserve America without getting anything except two to three days here and there, I began looking today towards Northern Idaho. On Monday I'll begin to reach out. Now I'm not complaining, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if someone canceled for me.

blw2

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 03:51:58 PM »
This is no different than getting a permit to raft the Colorado River thru Grand Canyon or almost any other expedition length river west of the Rockies. We can all hope that our "competition" decides to quit the game, soon, but that probably won't happen anytime in the near future. I have found, over the last 4+ years, that it is not all that hard to get spots in National Parks, and in and around other attractions, if one is patient and a bit flexible. It also helps to start early and be very persistent. These type of articles really amuse me though. It seems as if some of our fellow RV'ers feel that there is, or at least should be, a seniority system involved in getting a space instead of first come first served. Maybe we should all be greatful that we are able to travel and camp as we do and quit, at least a bit of, the whining. BTW 4000 miles this year and been able to get a camp everywhere we wanted.
RichH

really isn't so much about whining...at least not from my perspective.  It's more like complaining...no lamenting, about bad apples ruining things...or to the non-rv person thinking that all rv'ers are like the bad ones....
Of course not all vanlife people are "bad"...just as a whole, the more people you have cheating the system by finding places to live, will cause teh system to rebel.
Your point about the permit systems to use public lands (or waterways)... very true.  We have limited resources.... be those land, space, official camp sites... but what I was thinking more about are the resources of things like patience and willingness to help, and so on....

I mean, if I were the owner of a business with appropriate space, I might be inclined to set up an area that is conducive to RV travelers stopping for an overnight while en route...or even just let it be known (on allstays for example)  that the parking lot is available after hours....
but if it started to get a huge crowd there every night, the city or community might frown on it, pass ordinances against, and so on... and I would frown on doing it too once many folks started taking advantage.... staying there long term, overfilling my dumpster or leaving trash strewn about, trampling the landscaping or otherwise causing damage..even if form polite overuse...then I would be likely to put up a gate and a sign.
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OBX

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 04:12:49 PM »
The impression I get as an Eastcoaster is that Vanlife type people are becoming more like squatters on public streets, parking lots and some BLM type lands out West.  The article talks about people living close to Sedona for work and having to move.  It seems as though the intent of free camping on BLM land is not meant to be free squatters camps.  The person who wrote the article wants to be able to find a campsite and not run into a BLM trailer park full of people taking advantage of the system.  If the sites are taken because more people are simply into RVing then we may need more campgrounds/areas.  I'll be in Colorado and New Mexico in July so I hope to poke around to see some BLM type camping.

Dragginourbedaround

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 05:51:40 PM »
I am one that plans way ahead, usually 9-12 months in advance, and I am almost always successful getting the space I want at the location I want. This year things are taking a turn. They closed the entire San Juan National Forest at my summer destination, where I had reservations for 4 weeks. So I turned to the Oregon coast.

After about a half dozen calls to RV Resorts/Parks and State Parks via Reserve America without getting anything except two to three days here and there, I began looking today towards Northern Idaho. On Monday I'll begin to reach out. Now I'm not complaining, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if someone canceled for me.
Same for us. But this year we had family with medical problems and weren't able to make long range plans. Now sitting at Zion trying to make reservations in CO, MA and the DMV with no luck.
Gene

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blw2

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 06:52:54 PM »
I think that here out East, it's getting harder to get reservations in places like state parks, then it was even just 5-8 years ago....
but I feel like that is probably mostly a function of us RV'ers just creating more demand... but yes I do feel like the industry of camp sites could use a bit more in the supply department....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the vanlife folks are mostly focused in more urban places, near their jobs...also hitting the free/stealth spots....but I suppose the cheaper state parks and such might be on their radar now that I'm thinking about it.... and the telecommuters can work anywhere, so some of them might be a factor in what I see....
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aguablanco

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 07:15:20 PM »
The impression I get as an Eastcoaster is that Vanlife type people are becoming more like squatters on public streets, parking lots and some BLM type lands out West.  The article talks about people living close to Sedona for work and having to move.  It seems as though the intent of free camping on BLM land is not meant to be free squatters camps.  The person who wrote the article wants to be able to find a campsite and not run into a BLM trailer park full of people taking advantage of the system.  If the sites are taken because more people are simply into RVing then we may need more campgrounds/areas.  I'll be in Colorado and New Mexico in July so I hope to poke around to see some BLM type camping.

While I don't disagree in principle, the law is clear about the dispersed camping regulations and there is no test that should be applied as to what purpose one is camping for. Having been to Sedona many times, I live in Mesa, I can tell you that, in my opinion, that particular issue has been created by the Town and employers. No affordable housing and expensive RV parks. The vast majority of businesses prices should support paying their employees enough money to be able to live where they work and yet that is not happening.
There are also many retirees that have less than adequate income for the high life and also use the BLM land as a cheap way to live and travel. Are they also part of the problem? It seems they could also be called squatters to some degree. As I said earlier, it should always be first come first served no matter the purpose of your stay. Maybe we should start calling, at least the couple in Sedona, workkampers.
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Dragginourbedaround

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2018, 07:31:12 PM »
I think that here out East, it's getting harder to get reservations in places like state parks, then it was even just 5-8 years ago....
but I feel like that is probably mostly a function of us RV'ers just creating more demand... but yes I do feel like the industry of camp sites could use a bit more in the supply department....

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the vanlife folks are mostly focused in more urban places, near their jobs...also hitting the free/stealth spots....but I suppose the cheaper state parks and such might be on their radar now that I'm thinking about it.... and the telecommuters can work anywhere, so some of them might be a factor in what I see....
I think the problem we are having with Reserve America is there is a minor penalty for canceling a reservation, so almost all weekends are booked and most of the weeks are booked. Since the penalty to cancel is so minor it makes sense to book a weekend and have a spot, then cancel if your not going to use it. We have found one night available where we want to stay and tried to book it only to find there is a two night minimum, but only one night available and they will not book one night. I've been told we can call RA on July 1st to try to book one night.
Gene

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NY_Dutch

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 08:07:43 PM »
Cancellations and other fees, as well as two night minimums, etc., are set by the individual park systems, not by Reserve America. RA charges the parks a contracted fee for changes, and how those fees are passed on to the guests is up to the parks. For example, a few years back there was no reservation fee charged to the guests for Florida state parks, but you can be sure RA was still charging for the park system for them. Florida has since added a reservation fee instead of raising the site rates...
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Joezeppy

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 08:15:57 PM »
I think the problem we are having with Reserve America is there is a minor penalty for canceling a reservation, so almost all weekends are booked and most of the weeks are booked. Since the penalty to cancel is so minor it makes sense to book a weekend and have a spot, then cancel if your not going to use it. We have found one night available where we want to stay and tried to book it only to find there is a two night minimum, but only one night available and they will not book one night. I've been told we can call RA on July 1st to try to book one night.


Here in NY any 3 day holiday weekend is booked for a full 2 weeks prior. I imagine most of them cancel the first 11 days right after booking. Only a $9 charge to change the dates. Not complaining...it's just the way it is.
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NY_Dutch

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 08:24:03 PM »

Here in NY any 3 day holiday weekend is booked for a full 2 weeks prior. I imagine most of them cancel the first 11 days right after booking. Only a $9 charge to change the dates. Not complaining...it's just the way it is.

We were able to get exactly the dates we wanted as well as the specific sites we wanted at two NY state parks for the 4th of July week and Labor Day week. I made those reservations within seconds of the reservation windows opening.
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Oldgator73

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2018, 10:23:12 AM »
I do not have a problem with a cancellation fee. I do have a problem when I am charged that fee if I want to just change sites for the same dates.
We normally do not have a problem finding a reservation at Federal facilities (we do not camp at private CGs). We normally camp during the week and we just keep searching until find something open.
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blw2

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2018, 10:42:44 AM »
While I don't disagree in principle, the law is clear about the dispersed camping regulations and there is no test that should be applied as to what purpose one is camping for. Having been to Sedona many times, I live in Mesa, I can tell you that, in my opinion, that particular issue has been created by the Town and employers. No affordable housing and expensive RV parks. The vast majority of businesses prices should support paying their employees enough money to be able to live where they work and yet that is not happening.
There are also many retirees that have less than adequate income for the high life and also use the BLM land as a cheap way to live and travel. Are they also part of the problem? It seems they could also be called squatters to some degree. As I said earlier, it should always be first come first served no matter the purpose of your stay. Maybe we should start calling, at least the couple in Sedona, workkampers.
RichH

You're probably right about the towns and businesses.

Another thing your comment calling them 'squatters' is steering my thought process to is the BLM land usage and 'laws'.  I think that helped me to put my finger on what was bugging me but I couldn't put my finger on it exactly....

I'm going to venture a guess that the overarching principle intention of public land is for recreational purposes.  Right?
so,
how is a weekend or holiday family's use of the land in an RV different from a RV full timer retiree's use, or a person using the RV because they can't afford "normal housing"? 
I'm going to guess that most "vanlife folks" could afford some sort of housing if they wanted to, but it may result in a long commute or moving to a different job and different location.  So it's a choice in a way, in one regard.  A difficult one maybe, but a choice it still is. Not so different that a full timer retiree choosing to live in an RV rather than a traditional home....but in my mind I see a difference in purpose.  I feel like most full timer RV'ers are probably more in it for the recreation, as they roam around, while the others are more like the old stereo type gypsy squatting on public land...& I guess that seems like taking advantage of it to me, and I'm sensing the harm that it's doing to the more traditional RVing purpose.

But even within the 'vanlife' thing, I recon that many of them really do fall more into the category of a traditional full timer RVer.  Earning a living,  being respectful to the land and others, and all of that.  I don't want to admit it, but I suppose I probably have a little bit of jealousy for these folks living life in adventure...

So maybe we have four different types of 'RV'ers' then...
the purely recreational, vacation and temporary
the full timer in permanent or semi permanent vacation mode in a traditional RV
the 'working folks' living in converted vans that are stealth RV's that have jobs which allow them to be on a 'vacation adventure' and work at the same time
and then there's the "squatters" that I've seen so many news articles about, working jobs while living on nearby neighborhood streets or parking their vans in business parking lots after hours hoping they aren't noticed, or on nearby public land.
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NY_Dutch

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2018, 11:03:59 AM »
I do not have a problem with a cancellation fee. I do have a problem when I am charged that fee if I want to just change sites for the same dates.
We normally do not have a problem finding a reservation at Federal facilities (we do not camp at private CGs). We normally camp during the week and we just keep searching until find something open.

It takes about the same effort for someone at RA to do a cancellation as it does to change dates, sites, etc. And that someone has to be paid along with the overhead required to make the change plus RA's profit margin. If the park system chooses to pass those fees along, then you have little choice in the matter.
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Oldgator73

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2018, 11:39:09 AM »
It takes about the same effort for someone at RA to do a cancellation as it does to change dates, sites, etc. And that someone has to be paid along with the overhead required to make the change plus RA's profit margin. If the park system chooses to pass those fees along, then you have little choice in the matter.

I have no choice in the manner. But I have to disagree with your premise about cancelling and changing dates being the same. The difference is I am not cancelling the reservation. RA and the government are still getting the full fee for the reservation. The RA employee is working on commissions or performing piece work. That employee is there for 8 hours or whatever their shift is. It does not cost RA anything for me to change sites. It does cost them money for me to cancel.
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NY_Dutch

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2018, 12:14:07 PM »
I have no choice in the manner. But I have to disagree with your premise about cancelling and changing dates being the same. The difference is I am not cancelling the reservation. RA and the government are still getting the full fee for the reservation. The RA employee is working on commissions or performing piece work. That employee is there for 8 hours or whatever their shift is. It does not cost RA anything for me to change sites. It does cost them money for me to cancel.

RA collects a fee from the park for making a reservation, and also collects fees from the park for any changes that are made to the reservation. A cancellation does not change that, and no fees are refunded to the park except in the case of an error on RA's part. Do you really think there's no cost to RA to effectively cancel a reservation for site A and re-book it for site B when you ask for a site change? Really? Does it happen by magic? As far as I recall when I was involved in negotiations with RA, there was no indication that their employees are on commission or piece work. RA is a customer service center that manages reservations for a hundred or so state and private clients, and they get paid to provide that service.
Dutch
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Oldgator73

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2018, 02:21:29 PM »
RA collects a fee from the park for making a reservation, and also collects fees from the park for any changes that are made to the reservation. A cancellation does not change that, and no fees are refunded to the park except in the case of an error on RA's part. Do you really think there's no cost to RA to effectively cancel a reservation for site A and re-book it for site B when you ask for a site change? Really? Does it happen by magic? As far as I recall when I was involved in negotiations with RA, there was no indication that their employees are on commission or piece work. RA is a customer service center that manages reservations for a hundred or so state and private clients, and they get paid to provide that service.

I know RA collects fees for cancellations and changes. I do not have a problem with the cancellation fee. I have a problem with paying the change fee. As far as any fees being returned to the park or not, I dont care. I realize there is a few minutes work involved with changing a reservation. My contention is neither the park nor RA are LOSING any money when a change vs a cancellation is processed. I fat fingered the sentence about commissions and piece work. Meant to say RA was not paid on commission or piece work. Now, having said all that, I have shown up at a park and asked to move sites and the change was granted at no cost to me.
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rls7201

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2018, 04:43:21 PM »
We need more places like Slab City. A place for those that want to live an alternative life style. The permanent residents have figured out ways to live with no on site services and they are not a burden to society.  We've spent time there associating with other snow birds and the permanent residents and would return if not for the meth makers and dealers that have taken over.

Richard

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2018, 05:03:56 PM »
We need more places like Slab City. A place for those that want to live an alternative life style. The permanent residents have figured out ways to live with no on site services and they are not a burden to society.  We've spent time there associating with other snow birds and the permanent residents and would return if not for the meth makers and dealers that have taken over.

Richard
The problem is what you said in your last sentence. The drug addicts and dealers seem to take over any spot that is identified as good for alternative lifestyles or just folks down on their luck.
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Sun2Retire

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2018, 05:20:30 PM »

The problem is what you said in your last sentence. The drug addicts and dealers seem to take over any spot that is identified as good for alternative lifestyles or just folks down on their luck.


Its going to get worse before it gets better. and it will become increasingly difficult to get away from these groups. I think the further one gets from services (stores, water, fuel, Walmart, etc) the more likely one will still be able to get away from it all and take advantage of our public lands. The UK has been dealing with gypsy caravaners for some time.
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NY_Dutch

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2018, 07:15:14 PM »
I know RA collects fees for cancellations and changes. I do not have a problem with the cancellation fee. I have a problem with paying the change fee. As far as any fees being returned to the park or not, I dont care. I realize there is a few minutes work involved with changing a reservation. My contention is neither the park nor RA are LOSING any money when a change vs a cancellation is processed. I fat fingered the sentence about commissions and piece work. Meant to say RA was not paid on commission or piece work. Now, having said all that, I have shown up at a park and asked to move sites and the change was granted at no cost to me.

RA doesn't lose any money on a cancellation since they don't refund the original reservation fee. A site change on RA's system is handled as a cancellation of the original site plus a re-book of the new site, but they still only collect the change fee. I understand you don't like the change fee, but there is an expense incurred on RA's part to process the change. That a park system is willing to make in person changes at no cost to you is irrelevant, since RA does not process that change and incurs no extra costs.

I'm starting to feel like we're beating a dead horse here, so I'm bowing out now...
Dutch
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Oldgator73

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2018, 08:08:36 PM »
RA doesn't lose any money on a cancellation since they don't refund the original reservation fee. A site change on RA's system is handled as a cancellation of the original site plus a re-book of the new site, but they still only collect the change fee. I understand you don't like the change fee, but there is an expense incurred on RA's part to process the change. That a park system is willing to make in person changes at no cost to you is irrelevant, since RA does not process that change and incurs no extra costs.

I'm starting to feel like we're beating a dead horse here, so I'm bowing out now...

Bye Felecia!
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aguablanco

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2018, 09:02:38 PM »
We need more places like Slab City. A place for those that want to live an alternative life style. The permanent residents have figured out ways to live with no on site services and they are not a burden to society.  We've spent time there associating with other snow birds and the permanent residents and would return if not for the meth makers and dealers that have taken over.

Having been to Slab City just a few months ago I will say that I saw no evidence of drug manufacturing at all. Drug use is another thing. Do you have any evidence, police reports etc., to support your allegations? It's easy to marginalize people.
RichH

Richard
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 12:02:52 AM by Lou Schneider »
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Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.

Isaac-1

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2018, 11:25:28 PM »

Its going to get worse before it gets better. and it will become increasingly difficult to get away from these groups. I think the further one gets from services (stores, water, fuel, Walmart, etc) the more likely one will still be able to get away from it all and take advantage of our public lands. The UK has been dealing with gypsy caravaners for some time.

Part of the problem is that we are running out of "away from it all"  The US population has went up by nearly 1/3 since 1980, and almost doubled since 1960.  Sure a lot of that has been growth in the major cities, but even in so called fly over country the population has grown tremendously.  Wyoming our least populous state for example has went from 290,000 in 1950 to 568,000 in 2010.  (and estimated to be 573,000 in 2018)
2002 Safari Trek 2830

garyb1st

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2018, 01:34:46 AM »
Not sure if the article is talking about people who live in a Van out of desperation or people who are living in Vans as an alternative life style.  Regardless, I don't see either as a problem or threat to our ability to enjoy the lifestyle.  From my perspective, it's more likely we'll see an end of life event caused by another Yellowstone explosion (we're overdue you know), than running out of space to park the RV.  Seriously if you think we're running out of space, come out West.   Wyoming was mentioned as an area with a rapidly growing population.  Wyoming has about 6 people per square mile.  By comparison, California has about 244 people per square mile.  Now the City of Los Angeles has more than 7700 people per square mile.  So finding a spot in the City of Los Angeles is a bit harder than the rest of the state which has 163,000 square miles.  Seriously there's so much land out here it's hard to understand why anyone would think RVing is going to suffer because a few folks are traveling in Sprinter Vans. 
Gary B1st

2005 Pace Arrow 35G
2016 Jeep Wrangler

Isaac-1

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2018, 10:08:42 AM »
Gary my point about "the away from it all", is proportionately just how much more crowded those western states are now than they were just 20 or 30 years ago.  Not that Wyoming should be confused with any of the 26 or so cities in the US with a higher population than the state of Wyoming. Go just about anywhere in the south or western US and see towns that had a gas station and couple of motels 20 or 30 years ago that now have a Wal-Mart super center, a dozen motels, and the highway department is starting to build a bypass loop.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Oldgator73

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Re: Is VanLife Ruining Camping?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2018, 10:37:56 AM »
The urbanization of America. It has been happening for decades. According to the 2010 census 80.7% of the U.S. is considered urban. Broken down by region:
Northeast-85%
Midwest-75.9%
South-75.8%
West-89.8%
Washington DC is the most urban at 100% while Vermont is the least with 38.9%. Someone mentioned Wyoming which sits at 64.8%.
Im happy when we go camping and the neighbors are 50 or so feet away on either side.
Retired Air Force
2016 Winnie Drop
2016 Nissan Frontier