New things on a camping trip that I don't understand.

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Bill N

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Jan 4, 2014
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Location
Ozark, Missouri
I have been an RV owner since 1965 but on our latest trip I saw two things I have not seen before and one of those I don't understand.

1.  I use a surge protector (30 amp) and it was in use this whole 4 day trip on a single 30 amp site in Branson.  The heat was extremely hot everyday - very high 90s with lots of sun.  The connector between the coach cord and surge protector plus was very hot to the touch due to constant running of the air conditioners. But when I went to unplug this morining I found that the surge protector would not  unplug from the campground receptacle.  After isolating the power I finally managed to get it off by putting a flat heat screwdriver between the connection and prying it apart several times.  It appeared that one of the prongs was almost welded to the receptacle on the box so I will have a lot of cleaning up to do before the next trip.  Never had that happen before.  But I do understand the cause.

2.  Tiny bubbles.  Ever since I dewinterized and filled the water tank this spring I always get a whole lot of tiny bubbles whenever I draw water.  They dissipate quickly but they happen in both the sinks and in the shower.  At first I thought they were soap bubbles but the water tastes fine and, as I said, the bubbles go away quickly.  This is one I do not understand so any ideas are appreciated.  By the way this happens with both city water and tank pumped water.

Bill
 
Bill N said:
...
2.  Tiny bubbles.  Ever since I dewinterized and filled the water tank this spring I always get a whole lot of tiny bubbles whenever I draw water.  They dissipate quickly but they happen in both the sinks and in the shower.  At first I thought they were soap bubbles but the water tastes fine and, as I said, the bubbles go away quickly.  This is one I do not understand so any ideas are appreciated.  By the way this happens with both city water and tank pumped water.

Bill
I always get some of that after flushing out the pink stuff -- I think it's a little residue from the antifreeze. I may get a brief spurt of it from time to time when I open a faucet, even late in summer or early fall.
 
Two good answers so far.  As for air that was my first suspicion so I checked every connection I could locate and none appeared to be leaking - I assume it would also leak water if it has a big enough opening to suck air.  But the antifreeze carryover thought may be accurate.  This was our first trip out since dewinterizing and it did seem to be less noticeable as the trip went on.

Now for that plug welding  incident, I am thinking that the campground receptacle was already damaged (blackened around the pin hole) so that, internally, it was not a solid connection but allowed some arcing the whole time it was plugged in and drawing max 30 amp current.  Next time I see that 30 amp receptacle damaged at a campground I will use my 50/30 adapter if the 50 amp receptacle looks better.

Bill
 
  I go with Larry?s answer on the ?tiny bubbles?!  On the ? plug/receptical heat issue, ?if?were an ?overload? situation the breaker should have tripped...if it wasn?t malfunctioning or incorrectly sized. Or....as you mentioned...maybe physically damaged!  I?ll need more coffee....that gave me a headache! ?
 
A 30A outlet and plug is rated at the full 30A for short periods only, i.e. 30 minutes at a time.  The rating assumes the average amp draw is 80% of that, i.e. 24 amps sustained for longer periods or alternating low & high draw periods that average out to 24 or less.  When your rig runs the a/c and other equipment all day, chances are it pulled more than 24A for hours on end.  Couple that with a worn or dirty outlet and/or some corroded connections behind it and its gonna get HOT!  Also, voltage may have dropped in the campground due to the high total load, and that increases the amps drawn at each site.

Air bubbles: If no air suction leaks found (they are near impossible to spot), odds are that there is simply an air pocket trapped somewhere in the plumbing. It can take weeks of use to work it all out in some systems.  I'm betting that the problem is trapped air, since there is essentially no place for air suction when using city water.  Some common places for air to get trapped is in an ice maker water line, washing machine lines, and outside shower lines.  It's often difficult to run enough water through these to flush the air, so they slowly bleedbubbles back into the main system.
 
Well you are sure right on the current draw Gary.  The extreme temps for 4 straight days keep those basement AC compressors very busy and it was 27/28 amps constantly except when we turned off the ACs to do a short microwave or make coffee in the Keurig.

I think your explanation for the air bubbles is also spot on and will go away with time.

Bill
 
Gary RV_Wizard said:
A 30A outlet and plug is rated at the full 30A for short periods only, i.e. 30 minutes at a time.  The rating assumes the average amp draw is 80% of that, i.e. 24 amps sustained for longer periods or alternating low & high draw periods that average out to 24 or less.  When your rig runs the a/c and other equipment all day, chances are it pulled more than 24A for hours on end.  Couple that with a worn or dirty outlet and/or some corroded connections behind it and its gonna get HOT!  Also, voltage may have dropped in the campground due to the high total load, and that increases the amps drawn at each site.

Gary,

How is the general public supposed to know this? The plug and receptacle say 30 amps, with no time restraints indicated on either device. How could this be if the devices will not support unlimited time of 30 amps?
Is this a NEC suggestion? As we all know the NEC is not a governmental entity and has no punitive powers. Their suggestions are often turned into law by governmental agencies with no regard to the correctness of the suggestions.
So for all general purposes the general public sees a 30 amp device, rated for 30 amps with no time restraints.

 
Yes, the 80% factor is coded into the NEC in numerous ways, and also in UL ratings. It's a recognition that rarely are circuits fully loaded 100% of the time. If they assumed that all loads were always at 100%, the entire electrical system would have to be substantially larger (and more expensive).  The engineers that write the NEC standards try to make them practical as well as safe, and it's a narrow path indeed.

As you say, the public mostly doesn't understand ratings, electrical or otherwise. At best they make very simple assumptions and rarely bother with the details. If each outlet and plug had a little explanation booklet on it (like a prescription drug or pesticide bottle), would anybody read it or understand it, or would it just be meaningless technobabble?
To the best of my knowledge, every US state has adopted some version of the NEC, usually with some additions or exceptions at both state and local levels. Broadly speaking, though, the NEC is followed everywhere in the US, and CSA standards are much the same in Canada. 
 
An UL is just another privately owned entity that actually gets paid by the other entitys that want to use their stickers.
I still can't find the 80% rule for our 30 amp plugs and receptacles in my NEC book.
You suggest that the engineers try to make the code safe and practical but how can that be if the general public only sees the numbers on the devices. How may home or RV owners have a copy of the NEC? Something wrong here.
Yes I have the book because I was in charge of all maintenance in a high speed production facility with class 1 division 1 electrical service. Explosion proof for those not familiar with that kind of service.
Can any one show me where our RV 30 plugs and receptacles are referenced for 80% in NEC publications. Until so I'm going to go with more internet hooey.

Richard
 
I worked for 40 years as an industrial electrician, and I never heard that a 30, or 50, or a 100 amp breaker, or wiring, was only good for 80% load. Yes, I know that the code specifies that no one cord and plug connected load can exceed 80%, 24 amps on a 30 amp circuit. That's because they don't know what else is on the circuit, and it leaves a little room. However a 30 amp breaker should trip at 30 amps, and 30 amp wiring and wiring devices should be able to handle 30 amps 24/7/365 with little to no issues.
 
An RV plugged into a 30 amp or 50 amp park stanchion is "one cord and plug". The problem at many RV parks is that the 30 amp outlets in particular are worn from long usage, and no longer make a solid contact with the plug, leading to overheating. 

To address the OCPD 80% issue, we have to reference the current UL White Book where we find this on page 121 in reference to common molded case circuit breakers:

"Unless otherwise marked, circuit breakers should not be loaded to exceed 80% of their current rating, where in normal operation the load will continue for three hours or more."
 
NY_Dutch said:
An RV plugged into a 30 amp or 50 amp park stanchion is "one cord and plug". The problem at many RV parks is that the 30 amp outlets in particular are worn from long usage, and no longer make a solid contact with the plug, leading to overheating. 

Dutch you took the words I was thinking of posting.  We should all keep our plugs clean and bright but we have no control over the park outlets.  I think this is what caused the problem that I described and reminds me that I have to go to my coach storage and clean up the plugs I used on that last trip because I know they must be fouled.

One question to the electrician types.  Since I have a 30 amp coach I usually have a choice of a 50 amp or 30 amp outlet at most campgrounds.  If the 30 amp looks to be rather damaged (black around one leg) can I use my 50-30 amp adapter without problem?  That presupposes that the 50 amp outlet is in decent condition.  Sounds like a stupid question to me because why else would they make such an animal.

Bill
 
One time I had a bad circuit breaker issue on my site.. The park manager tried to convince me it was because of Big Class A's like mine overloading the 30 amp breaker and wearing them out.. He is an electrician he says (I'm an electronics technician myself.. Really. have the cert in my computer bag).

Well.. There was just one problem witjh his explanation.. 50 amp site, 50 amp breakers.  At most I draw 30 amps off those puppies.
 
If the 30 amp looks to be rather damaged (black around one leg) can I use my 50-30 amp adapter without problem?  That presupposes that the 50 amp outlet is in decent condition.
You certainly can, Bill. Oh, there might be rare occasions when the whole pedestal has problems, but otherwise it's a good option.
 
Yep, just as Larry said. Any time the 30 amp outlet looks at all "dicey", I would use the 50 amp adapter. It's pretty unusual to see a worn 50 amp outlet.
 
many times (especially on hot days) the whole electrical grid voltage will drop as much as 10 to 15 volts.

because of this if your RV normally draws 30 amps of power at 120 volts,  it will be drawing almost 34 amps if the voltage drops to 106 volts
 
sightseers said:
many times (especially on hot days) the whole electrical grid voltage will drop as much as 10 to 15 volts.

because of this if your RV normally draws 30 amps of power at 120 volts,  it will be drawing almost 34 amps if the voltage drops to 106 volts
But would my surge protector cut me off if it got that low?  Also,  I am assuming that if I do use my 50/30 amp converter there will be no problem using the Progressive surge protector either.  See, I am becoming more electrically inclined. I almost hate to admit that I have had my ham radio license since 1975 and even built my own radio (with a lot of help) but my electrical knowledge went out the window from lack of use and all those senior moments.......lol
 
Bill N said:
But would my surge protector cut me off if it got that low? 

What "surge protector" do you have?  Some high priced models do have the ability to disconnect from low voltage.
 
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