What is happening to our society?

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signcut said:
It does seem like the world is so much different than it was when we were younger, but part of that (and a large part indeed) is that we tend to romanticize the past, remembering good things with much more clarity than those that might have been bad, or at least 'not good'. It isn't something that is exclusive to today, as the quotes from centuries ago indicate; if, however, it is something that we can't see or at least recognize to some degree, then it will continue to be an ongoing complaint.

Having said that, I will also say that society does feel much different today...  :)


--- One other interesting tidbit, about WWII: there was a higher degree of opposition to that war than there was for most of Vietnam. While the country did indeed make things happen as a whole, there was a ton of disagreement about even being involved, even after Pearl Harbor. As I said, romanticizing the past; in this case, more likely that we 'remember' what we've been told/taught in school, which is often a sanitized version.
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There is no doubt that every succeeding generation is viewed as not as good, delinquent, not responsible, etc. than the last. Our parents thought we were going to bring the country to a halt. And their parents thought the same of them. But society has changed enough in the past two generations that we really are a different country now with different values than what was demonstrated 50 years ago. While anyone of a certain age will remember the 1968 Democratic Convention and the anarchy associated with it from protesters fighting the police, it must be remembered that was a generational movement with the younger generation wanting us out of the Vietnam War. Today, it is much different because it isn't generational in the divisiveness; it's not age related at all. Now, the entire country is divided because we have become much too partisan and refuse to compromise or see the other side's point of view. We now have politicians that are inciting violence within their supporters if opposed by the "other side." With that mentality, what will it take to make people realize they must once again work together to cure the country's ills? It'll take a lot because right now, it's always the other person's fault when there is something wrong. Can you be successful when you don't believe in compromise?

Regarding WWII, my memories don't come from text books or someone romanticizing the past to me. They come from my parents living through it; my father going to war and serving in the Pacific Theater and my mother going to work in a small arms munition plant while she was pregnant with my older brother, standing in the ration lines waiting for bread or milk or cooling oil. There was more opposition to that war because it was a world wide war that encompassed many more countries. Vietnam was a regional war taking place in a country that most Americans didn't even know existed and couldn't find on a map. The opposition to the World War was across the board because it affected the lives of everyone in the country, while the opposition to the Vietnam War was from the younger generation that were being forced to serve their country in a war they didn't believe in. It wasn't even a declared war. That is a gross generalization, but I think I make my point.
 
John Stephens said:
Today, it is much different because it isn't generational in the divisiveness; it's not age related at all. Now, the entire country is divided because we have become much too partisan and refuse to compromise or see the other side's point of view.
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Respectfully disagree on most points John.  It is generational.  The established don't want to lose what they've worked hard for.  It is age related.  The young want a chance to enjoy the good life which, for many, seems like the impossible dream.  The entire country is not divided.  It is the extremes on both sides that are unable or unwilling to compromise.  But those extremes don't represent the majority.  They represent only the pettiness and fears of those afraid of change.  Just as things have changed since the beginning of time, they will continue to change until.... let's just say, long after we're all gone.  But back to the big differences, personally I believe for the real majority, everyone else, they just want to get through the week and enjoy the weekend. 
 
John Stephens said:
There is no doubt that every succeeding generation is viewed as not as good, delinquent, not responsible, etc. than the last. Our parents thought we were going to bring the country to a halt. And their parents thought the same of them. But society has changed enough in the past two generations that we really are a different country now with different values than what was demonstrated 50 years ago. While anyone of a certain age will remember the 1968 Democratic Convention and the anarchy associated with it from protesters fighting the police, it must be remembered that was a generational movement with the younger generation wanting us out of the Vietnam War. Today, it is much different because it isn't generational in the divisiveness; it's not age related at all. Now, the entire country is divided because we have become much too partisan and refuse to compromise or see the other side's point of view. We now have politicians that are inciting violence within their supporters if opposed by the "other side." With that mentality, what will it take to make people realize they must once again work together to cure the country's ills? It'll take a lot because right now, it's always the other person's fault when there is something wrong. Can you be successful when you don't believe in compromise?
Click to expand...

And this is somehow new? If you remember, apparently being from at/near the generation that dealt with, for instance, McCarthy and the Red Scare, then this is not exactly a new way of dealing with political or personal opposition. That you feel that it is would seem to indicate that you are simply not recalling what was happening in the earlier part of your own lifetime, and simply ascribing such actions as something new and rather nefarious; that pretty much exemplifies my entire point, right there.

Regarding WWII, my memories don't come from text books or someone romanticizing the past to me. They come from my parents living through it; my father going to war and serving in the Pacific Theater and my mother going to work in a small arms munition plant while she was pregnant with my older brother, standing in the ration lines waiting for bread or milk or cooling oil. There was more opposition to that war because it was a world wide war that encompassed many more countries. Vietnam was a regional war taking place in a country that most Americans didn't even know existed and couldn't find on a map. The opposition to the World War was across the board because it affected the lives of everyone in the country, while the opposition to the Vietnam War was from the younger generation that were being forced to serve their country in a war they didn't believe in. It wasn't even a declared war. That is a gross generalization, but I think I make my point.
Click to expand...

Actually, you are making a point that is more or less tangential, not really on topic. What I tossed in was an interesting, and true, tidbit about a common fallacy regarding WWII, that it was universally supported: in fact, there was a large backlash over the idea of fighting in that war, something that is generally not known. On the other hand, the Vietnam War is often considered to have been a huge issue as far as the public was concerned, but was less so than WWII, which is not commonly known. You can argue the why of the resistance, but the stated fact remains the same. The fact that many don't know this is basically due to not having been taught about it, or having studied it on their own; you can take that personally, if you wish, but it wasn't meant as a personal comment. It was simply an truthful observation on why most people don't know that particular fact...
 
"You can argue the why of the resistance, but the stated fact remains the same. The fact that many don't know this is basically due to not having been taught about it, or having studied it on their own;..."

On this point only, many today no little to nothing of our history because Civics and History is no longer taught in many many schools.  That also leads to a complete lack of knowledge on things such as the Constitution, Bill of Rights and other rules governing government operations. Ask any group of young people (College Jr and below) some basic civics questions and prepare to be astonished at what a complete lack of knowledge you will encounter.

PS:  I am extremely happy to see how this thread that I started has made it to a 3rd page and is opening up many thoughts along the same lines.

Bill
 
regarding the history we were all taught in school....

There is some evidence that FDR let Pearl Harbor happen just to get the nation to go along with the war.

and IMO....The Warren Commission was less than truthful about the JFK assassination.
 
I am an old guy, (78).  I have a degree in Business and Psychology.  Never used either as a means of support, but of course with that background I have observed people most of my life.  There are some basic tenants that always hold true  that seem to direct where we are going as a people or nation.

There are only a few Original Thinkers in any population.  Usually only 2 or 3 out of a thousand.  The rest are simple following them or modifying their thoughts.  That's called thinking out of the box.  Some of these folks are good, and some are purely evil.  Examples would be our Founding Fathers or Lenin or Hitler or many others.  They come up with ideas and have the charisma to convince the masses that their philosophy is correct and will work.  Some will work, some will not.

The majority of people are good.  They are born without prejudice and have to be taught.  In the end we all have prejudice of some kind.  You may think you do not, but think again.  It's how we recognize those prejudices and react to them that defines who we are.

Some people are born evil!  Period.  Just like original thinkers they exist.  In College you are taught that all this can be cured or treated.  That has proved to be naive.  Some can not be cured.

Most people and cultures only wish to be left in peace to pursue their dreams.  They pay little attention to the politics going on around them as long as it leaves them alone.  They worry about food, shelter, security, family, community, and in the long run their nation.  Been a long time but I believe that is called Maslovs Hierarchy of Needs.  That just describes human nature.

Some individuals care deeply about their community or nation.  They will try to organize communities or nations for the common good.  Often times those theories are flawed and in the end cause vast chaos and destruction, but sometimes they really do work and make life better for all.  The problem is that although they want the best for their community, they are unable to think the process through to the end and visualize the results.  Original thinkers are sometimes those that cannot do that.  They think they have a good idea, but in the long run it will not work.  History has thousands of examples of this.

Most cultures are defined by their religion.  Almost every society that has existed on Earth had some religion.  Be it Druids, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, ect.  These religions are usually in conflict with one other.  Lots of that going on today.  They try to indoctrinate the very young and continue to indoctrinate throughout their learning years and to control them throughout life.  Some are peaceful, some are not.  Don't forget, non belief is also a religion.  Everyone believes in something.  Since religion is a belief, Conservatism or Liberalism are also a form of religion.

I learned in College that each country has their own Philosophy.  Ours is the thoughts of John Dewey.  His philosophy formed our schools and how we as a people operate.  That philosophy is "Whatever Works" also know as "Pragmatism".  As a notion we have done well with that.  https://www.iep.utm.edu/dewey

But now their are forces that are trying to alter our schools and even our way of thinking.  They try to, (and indeed are) changing the curriculum in our schools and colleges.  They try to destroy our symbols of  our history.  They try to confuse our children, and indeed the rest  of us about who we are.  Our national leaders are mocked and publicly destroyed.  Our people are taught that not working and being able to live off the work of others is not only honorable, but smart.  They are being taught that the wisdom of elders is old fashioned, out of date, and foolish.

National leaders are imbued with such power that they cannot afford to lose it, either because if defines who they are, or because their wrongs and crimes would be exposed and they would face retribution for what they have done.  They will go to no ends to protect themselves and the communities that have conspired with them.  That includes murder or whatever it takes.

I could go on, but that basically defines the process.

Now you wonder what's happening to our society.  Take a look around.  Which side are you on.  Pick one because we're unfortunately on one or the other.
And you wonder why our young are confused and easily led astray.
 
I should have stated that Absolute Power corrupts, and then,
Some National leaders are imbued with such power that they cannot afford to lose it, either because if defines who they are, or because their wrongs and crimes would be exposed and they would face retribution for what they have done.  They will go to no ends to protect themselves and the communities that have conspired with them.  That includes murder or whatever it takes.
 
CooperHawk .... That about sums it up...

I am happy to say, My Step-Son is one of the ones who stops and helps... He worked a while as a tow truck operator, so he feels he has some skill... ;)
Hubby and I will stop and help.
The younger Step-Daughter is still "finding herself", but I can see her helping....

Focus on teaching the next generation by example.... you can only change your own behaviour.
Peace and Blessings all....
 
sightseers said:
There is some evidence that FDR let Pearl Harbor happen just to get the nation to go along with the war.
Click to expand...

There is speculation that FDR knew, but direct evidence has never been discovered that anyone had prior knowledge of the attack. It was pretty clear that the Japanese were going to take action, but Pearl Harbor certainly wasn't at the top of the list of potential targets.
 
ok, give me a good reason why FDR would have had all the Pacific fleet aircraft carriers (only)... out of port on Dec. 7th ?

( lucky coincidence ? ... hmmm...)
 
FDR was a Navy man. Had he known the Japanese were coming, everything would have been out to sea.
 
FDR needed the attack to happen so he could declare war and send troupes to England's aid.

Congress was full of WW1 vets and dead set against any more wars.


"The End justifies the Means"   
 
FDR didn't order those carriers to sea, Admiral Kimmel did and lost his job for it.  They thought the battleships were safer in the anchorage just as they thought the fighters and bombers were safer not being dispersed and vulnerable to sabotage.  No one expected them to strike Pearl Harbor, they expected them to hit the Philippines, which they did, and other bases closer to Japan.

But you are correct in that it did give FDR the backing he needed.  BTW, he was already sending supplies to our allies under Lend Lease.
 
Is it generational divisions or "other divisions" or BOTH.

Answer is both. but alas to get into why involves getting into political discussions.

But I am going to talk history.

Hitler divided Germany.. THe most obvious division was JEWS v/s everyone else but there were other divisions as well.

Marx wrote a plan for taking over a country. What many do not know is the country he wanted to take over was the UNITED STATES...  The plan called for dividing Society so many ways you lost count. Young against old. Black against White againste Brown against Yellow against Red.
Jews against Christians against different flavor of Christian (This different flavor goes on for a while) against Muslim against Atheist against other.
Male v/s Femals
Rich v/s poor
Born in the USA v/s Immigrant

And many more divisions.

Note Hitler's plan was nearly identical. In Hitler's plan  he stood up and said ONLY I CAN FIX IT, ONLY I CAN MAKE GERMANY GREAT AGAIN.

Marx had the communist party taking over then in an orderly fashion turning power over to the people.. Well that did not happen in the USSR. but  This is all HISTORY... I slept in HIstory class.. But I also studied the subject.
 
Cooperhawk said:
I am an old guy, (78).  I have a degree in Business and Psychology.  Never used either as a means of support, but of course with that background I have observed people most of my life.  There are some basic tenants that always hold true  that seem to direct where we are going as a people or nation.

There are only a few Original Thinkers in any population.  Usually only 2 or 3 out of a thousand.  The rest are simple following them or modifying their thoughts.  That's called thinking out of the box.  Some of these folks are good, and some are purely evil.  Examples would be our Founding Fathers or Lenin or Hitler or many others.  They come up with ideas and have the charisma to convince the masses that their philosophy is correct and will work.  Some will work, some will not.

The majority of people are good.  They are born without prejudice and have to be taught.  In the end we all have prejudice of some kind.  You may think you do not, but think again.  It's how we recognize those prejudices and react to them that defines who we are.

Some people are born evil!  Period.  Just like original thinkers they exist.  In College you are taught that all this can be cured or treated.  That has proved to be naive.  Some cannot be cured.

Most people and cultures only wish to be left in peace to pursue their dreams.  They pay little attention to the politics going on around them as long as it leaves them alone.  They worry about food, shelter, security, family, community, and in the long run their nation.  Been a long time but I believe that is called Maslovs Hierarchy of Needs.  That just describes human nature.

Some individuals care deeply about their community or nation.  They will try to organize communities or nations for the common good.  Often times those theories are flawed and in the end cause vast chaos and destruction, but sometimes they really do work and make life better for all.  The problem is that although they want the best for their community, they are unable to think the process through to the end and visualize the results.  Original thinkers are sometimes those that cannot do that.  They think they have a good idea, but in the long run it will not work.  History has thousands of examples of this.

Most cultures are defined by their religion.  Almost every society that has existed on Earth had some religion.  Be it Druids, Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, ect.  These religions are usually in conflict with one other.  Lots of that going on today.  They try to indoctrinate the very young and continue to indoctrinate throughout their learning years and to control them throughout life.  Some are peaceful, some are not.  Don't forget, non belief is also a religion.  Everyone believes in something.  Since religion is a belief, Conservatism or Liberalism are also a form of religion.

I learned in College that each country has their own Philosophy.  Ours is the thoughts of John Dewey.  His philosophy formed our schools and how we as a people operate.  That philosophy is "Whatever Works" also know as "Pragmatism".  As a notion we have done well with that.  https://www.iep.utm.edu/dewey

But now their are forces that are trying to alter our schools and even our way of thinking.  They try to, (and indeed are) changing the curriculum in our schools and colleges.  They try to destroy our symbols of  our history.  They try to confuse our children, and indeed the rest  of us about who we are.  Our national leaders are mocked and publicly destroyed.  Our people are taught that not working and being able to live off the work of others is not only honorable, but smart.  They are being taught that the wisdom of elders is old fashioned, out of date, and foolish.

National leaders are imbued with such power that they cannot afford to lose it, either because if defines who they are, or because their wrongs and crimes would be exposed and they would face retribution for what they have done.  They will go to no ends to protect themselves and the communities that have conspired with them.  That includes murder or whatever it takes.

I could go on, but that basically defines the process.

Now you wonder what's happening to our society.  Take a look around.  Which side are you on.  Pick one because we're unfortunately on one or the other.
And you wonder why our young are confused and easily led astray.
Click to expand...
:)) :)) :)) :)) :))  Do you mind if I copy and share that?
 
I have not read all the replies and I apologize for that. Also if the following has been posted.
Simply put...it's a different world we live in. Analyze all you want. "We're not in Kansas any more!"
 
garyb1st said:
Respectfully disagree on most points John.  It is generational.  The established don't want to lose what they've worked hard for.  It is age related.  The young want a chance to enjoy the good life which, for many, seems like the impossible dream.  The entire country is not divided.  It is the extremes on both sides that are unable or unwilling to compromise.  But those extremes don't represent the majority.  They represent only the pettiness and fears of those afraid of change.  Just as things have changed since the beginning of time, they will continue to change until.... let's just say, long after we're all gone.  But back to the big differences, personally I believe for the real majority, everyone else, they just want to get through the week and enjoy the weekend.
Click to expand...

I dropped out of this conversation because I could see it headed toward the political arena and I have no interest in it going there. However, I must also respectfully disagree with your above statement about our divisiveness being generational. To say that is to say that all members of the middle aged, older or senior generations are Republicans and all members of the younger generation are Democrats. That simply is not factual. Do you see nothing but kids at Democratic rallies and nothing but rich older people at Trump rallies? I think not. You are right in stating that what is seen on the news represents the fringe on both sides and the majority of people are somewhere in the middle just wanting to get by and pursue their dream. But consider that aside from the general public fringe that create the news stories, which are a minority today, the bulk of the news regarding divisiveness comes from our politicians. And politics is not divided generationally.

You are correct that it appears the millennial generation wants what their parents have without working for it and baby boomers don't want to give up what they feel they have earned. I see young people every day who get out of school with a four year degree and expect to be driving a BMW the next week. But that is a completely different topic than what I was trying to discuss and has little to do with the country's society becoming the most divided it has ever been. And that's not my opinion; that is a statement being made by those in the know and all the news networks. Of course, if you subscribe to one particular politician's viewpoints, this could simply be considered more fake news.

John from Detroit echoes my own thoughts. And Cooperhawk, I thought your piece was well written.
 
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