How to determine fair price, Advice?

Hello everyone,

In another thread I mentioned I'm going to look at a used MH tomorrow. (2003 Country Coach Allure Cascade)

Today I went to my credit union to ask about loan values, rate, term, and payments.

The credit union Used Retail value and the NADA Average Retail values are the same. In this case, $59,350.00. Low NADA retail is $49,250 and on another thread someone mentioned that most private sales usually take place around the low retail price point.

If you were selling, how would you determine your asking price? The current owner is asking $70,000 which is way above what that credit union and NADA says is average retail.

I'm not interested in taking unfair advantage of anyone nor am I interested in being taken advantage of in a deal of this size.

Any thoughts on how we arrive at a fair price?

Thanks,
Pete

I strongly doubt you will find a Country Coach of that year in good shape for  anywhere near the NADA average, NADA does not use actual sales data and lumps way too much in together, I suspect you will find that every other diesel pusher of that year with the same number of slides will be about the same NADA value regardless if it were an entry level model or something like  Country Coach or a Foretravel

Basically the way NADA listing work would have a 2003 Mercedes and a 2003 Nissan being worth the same amount of money if they are both mid sized coupes

As Isaac says, the NADA RV Guide is not a Bible like the auto version. There is no nationwide sales resorting for wholesale or retail RV values, so the NADA numbers are depreciation estimates. Popular models and rigs in excellent condition typically bring more, sometimes much more, while others may be under even the low retail.

That said, the NADA value for a 2003 CC Allure sounds about right to me.  20 months ago I sold my 2004 American Tradition, a similar quality & equipped coach, for $69,500 (private sale).  It would probably still bring $60-$65k today.  Depreciation slows way down after 12-15 years and then reaches a "floor" where it doesn't change much at all as long as the condition is OK.    I would try to buy the Allure between $50k and $60k, depending on condition. If it is really nice, 65K would not be out of line.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your opinions... I will update this thread after tomorrow's visit.

As promised, here is my update after today's visit with the CC Allure.

It is in nice condition with some minor concerns about cracking in the caulking around some of the rood vents and the shower skylight. The owner said he'd get up there and seal it up today. We've had a fair amount of rain in the last week so some of the cracks were wet which I didn't like to see. No signs inside the coach but by the time you see signs inside, it is way too late. Mechanically it is very clean and everything but one interior light works. The engine and generator started up nicely, from cold, no smoke and quickly settled into a smooth idle.

The paint is 'checked'. I've not used that term before but if you get close enough (a couple of feet) there are tiny cracks in the paint on the sides of the coach. I don't mean in just one spot, but across the entire surface of the side of the coach. What causes that and should it be a concern?

He did mention that at the last service the local Cummins dealer charged $1800 to fix an intake manifold problem.

One big issue is the age of the tires. They are almost 9 years old so they need to be replaced. The current tires are Toyo and can be replaced for $5300. A new set of Michelin tires would cost $7238 and is what I would put on if I owned the coach now.

The owner arrived as his asking price by using the NADA site and adding all the options. As a result his value is much higher than what my bank and the standard NADA value indicates.

What do you think is reasonable offer based on what you know from just this post? The asking price is $70K

If we were to agree on a conditional price, the next step is to take it for a drive and spend some more time with it to check all of the systems a bit further. Don't want to ruin the current winterization work so wasn't able to run the water systems today.

Thanks,
Pete

PeterH said:

One big issue is the age of the tires. They are almost 9 years old so they need to be replaced. The current tires are Toyo and can be replaced for $5300. A new set of Michelin tires would cost $7238 and is what I would put on if I owned the coach now.

The owner arrived as his asking price by using the NADA site and adding all the options. As a result his value is much higher than what my bank and the standard NADA value indicates.

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I'm not sure where you're getting your tire prices, but I can buy Hankook's or Toyo's for my MH for ~$350-425 each plus installation.  Even if you have 8 to replace (I have 6) that's a lot less than what you're quoting.

As for the NADA book value, it specifically states that equipment that was standard on the vehicle when delivered should not be added to the price.  There are all sorts of things that will show in the NADA options list that would have been standard on that coach.  The owner is either greedy or doesn't understand how NADA prices motorhomes.

docj said:

The owner is either greedy or doesn't understand how NADA prices motorhomes.

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I found it was usually the latter, when I was shopping for used RV's online. That, or many sellers just had no idea what their used RV was actually worth, and were asking whatever they needed to pay off a loan or whatever they felt like was a "fair" amount : ... which of course is completely subjective.

You are probably not going to convince this seller to come down in price. He is going to have to decide that himself. You could call and mention that your target amount is $xx so you're afraid it's not going to work out right now. Then walk away. Keep watching the ad, there's a good chance the price will come down and/or he will eventually call you. In the meantime, you can continue shopping and might find another similar rig that is more realistically priced.

In my experience a reasoned statement with an offer is the best approach, I you decide you want this coach tell him that your lender will only finance up to a specific amount for this coach, and therefore you are limited to offering $XXXX.

Don't make it sound like you are trying to low ball him, just that this is as much as you can pay.  Also make the offer contingent upon a professional inspection if you are not well versed in RV inspection as well as in the traits of this specif chassis design.

scottydl said:

I found it was usually the latter, when I was shopping for used RV's online. That, or many sellers just had no idea what their used RV was actually worth, and were asking whatever they needed to pay off a loan or whatever they felt like was a "fair" amount : ... which of course is completely subjective.

You are probably not going to convince this seller to come down in price. He is going to have to decide that himself. You could call and mention that your target amount is $xx so you're afraid it's not going to work out right now. Then walk away. Keep watching the ad, there's a good chance the price will come down and/or he will eventually call you. In the meantime, you can continue shopping and might find another similar rig that is more realistically priced.

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At the end of the day it's worth what you're willing to pay. When I purchase RV's, I check all sources I can (RVT, RVTrader, Craigslist, PPL) to get an idea of pricing. For those sellers who add all extra stuff from NADA when in fact its standard equipment for that model.....keep it. Sadly too many do not understand the huge depreciation hit they take when trying to get rid of their over financed rig. Also if seller is not willing to negotiate, then I'm not their buyer.

One more word on the topic of NADA, etc, keep condition in mind paying less for a money pit is not a bargain.

Paying an extra couple of thousand now for a well maintained and updated, garage kept coach now may save you a bundle in the future.

Go through the NADA, do not check off anything that would have been standard.  Be very tight when it comes to condition.  The checked paint is not a good sign.  It won't get better.  Repainting like it was new would cost you a ton!  Is it mainly just the dark colors, or all over.  Possibly just the clear coat, and that would be more easily fixed but still a lot of money.

Good luck in your search. 

In financing, put as much down as you can.

As a trade value, take the NADA based on condition and do not add any options at all, then subtract for tires.

You should be able to get new Toyos in the size that coach would need for around $525 each, mounted and balanced.  Michelins will be 50% more and aren't any better.  If you joined the FMCA RV owner group, you could get the fleet price on Michelins and cut the cost somewhat, or check around and find a commercial Michelin shop that discounts.

The checking is actually under the paint, in the surface of the fiberglass. It is caused by a defect in the fiberglass material (from Crane Composites) that shows up when the surface gets excessively hot in the sun. It mostly occurs when the surface is painted a dark color, which is why the defect escaped notice until RVs got out on the road.  It's a cosmetic problem only.  Grinding the surface down and refinishing would be a $40k job, so it is what it is!

Obviously his NADA pricing method is way off. There is no conceivable option on a Country Coach that would add value above Average Retail, so nothing should be added.  Given the urgent need for tires (I wouldn't drive it any further than a local tires hop), I would consider $60k to be top dollar.

Country Coaches had a very good reputation in those years and the prices remain unusually high, especially in the Pacific Northwest region where they were made and are well known. Frankly, I think they are over-priced, with some sellers demanding $80k or more for coaches as old as 1999 and no slides.  They were indeed one of the better coaches in the 1998-2005 era, but the price premium seems way out of line to me.  Compare to a 2003 American Eagle or American Dream, Newmar Mountainaire diesel, or Beaver Contesa.

My guess is the owner won't come down to a reasonable price until its been on the market a while with no buyers and reality sets in. But who knows, maybe some avid CC fan will pay is price?

The paint would be a big concern for me. If it were a car would you buy it in that condition? I attempt to keep all of my stuff in as good condition as possible, and if the exterior of the rig was all checked, I would be looking to get the whole thing repainted.  Yep, big bucks but I know me. The leaky vents is a concern for me. It's nice that he is willing to fix them now, but why weren't they already fixed? As you said, already leaking caulk may have been leaking for years. 

Proceed with caution.

For some reason, the first time I tried to update this, my post failed... so I'll try again.

We just got off the phone with Geico asking about insurance on the 2003 Country Coach Allure I've been looking at. Suddenly, I think I'll be keeping my current rig for a while longer. They wanted $869/6months for insurance on the CC Allure. They insist the value is the original retail sale price of $228,000 and consider this a high-value motorhome. True, there will be a lien holder until I can pay it off... but until I start living in it full-time, I'm not willing to pay that much for insurance.

Anyone have a suggestion for a different source for insurance?

Based on everyone's input here, and of course my wife's veto power, looks like I'll let this opportunity pass. That is probably better than insulting the current owner with a price he'd see as an insult. The paint checking, the possible roof leaks, and the condition of the tires means I'd only be comfortable offering $59,000, which is the average retail price from NADA.

Thanks,
Pete

The Geico rep is way off base unless you asked for full replacement value insurance (which they don't even offer on a 16 year old coach). They are only insuring for Fair Market Value on an older coach, and they will almost surely use the NADA average value to determine that. You might be able to show a higher value based on actual market sales data, but that's hard to come by for any RV.


That said, insurance premiums can and will vary widely with both the region (zip code) and your personal data (credit rating, driving record, etc). And the individual insurer as well - it's not unusual to see a 100% difference from one RV insurer to another for any particular situation. The low cost insure for one RV & person may be the highest cost for another and seemingly similar one. You have to shop around a lot.
Checking the sale listings at PPL Motorhomes (consignment sales), I see a 2004 Allure 40 footer with 3 slides sold for $70k, and a 2002 36 footer (2 slides) for $37.5k.  PPL lists actual sale prices for the past two years, so a very valuable resource:
https://www.pplmotorhomes.com/diesel-motorhomes-sold

I would certainly shop insurance around, it can be all over the place when pricing from company to company.  Mine is currently with Allstate which was half the price of my previous policy with State-Farm, which itself was substantially less than the quote I received from Progressive.

Make the offer.  When you put something out for sale, you have to expect you may feel a bit off, but if he doesn't accept, he can always counter offer.

If every thing else is in really good condition, with the checked paint problem, the coach may not even be worth low NADA retail, minus a set of tires. If you demand Michelin then I'd expect 50% what  those tires cost off the price too. You have to be willing to accept the coach with the paint defect because to fix it would astronomical. What will this coach look like in 2 or 3 years? With the paint defect I'd pass on this coach even if it was 1/2 price.

Gary RV_Wizard said:

The Geico rep is way off base unless you asked for full replacement value insurance (which they don't even offer on a 16 year old coach). They are only insuring for Fair Market Value on an older coach, and they will almost surely use the NADA average value to determine that. You might be able to show a higher value based on actual market sales data, but that's hard to come by for any RV.

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With all due respect, Progressive insures our 2000 Beaver Patriot Thunder with an "agreed value" policy.  Our coach had an MSRP of ~$340k and Progressive had no problem with agreeing on ~20% of the MSRP without an inspection.  Interestingly, the price we're paying isn't all that much higher than Geico quoted the OP and our policy has a "full timers" package.  Of course, garaging location, driving record, claims history, etc, all affect premium cost.

Good point, docj, and I should have included Agreed Value in my reply.  However, neither Full Replacement nor Agreed Value are normally quoted unless requested - the standard offering is Fair Market Value.  Further, 20% of MSRP is along way from full original MSRP!    And the rep PeterH talked too apparently would not even offer an alternative to full MSRP value.