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Author Topic: Paradise?  (Read 774 times)

Bill N

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2018, 10:52:02 AM »

 
I can surely understand how that fire spread with the dry underbrush, dead wood, and high winds.  The land is Federal but the Federal Govt. had given money to the state to maintain it.  They apparently didn't do it.  That along with the beliefs that nature should just take it's course caused this.  They should have learned from Yellowstone a few years ago.  At least they should have cleaned up the forest near cities.

Nature did take it's course and fires are part of it's course if allowed.  California is in a real bad fix with it's forest lands and recent lack  of rains. We lived east of LA for two years and in that time span huge patches of brush burned off.  So it is not just the forests but the wide open patches of brush that burn like greasewood.  RIP to those who have lost their lives and regrets to those who have lost their homes.  We have lived in three places with major natural disasters.  In all cases, FEMA had to come in and set up smaller mobile homes for displaced residents to live in for a period of time.  Not long ago I read an article that said they still have thousands of these trailers stored in several locations around the country.  Two years ago they sold off about 50 or so right in our town.  With the housing costs and availabililty in the area of the fires FEMA may be required to resort to more temporary trailer towns.

Bill
Bill & Joan N in Missouri
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Bill N

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2018, 11:07:30 AM »
had the Military troops sent to the border  been sent to fight the fire.   I think it would have been stopped. so YES it was allowed.

Trump is also saying forest mis-management and failure to rake leaves are responsible. The fires started on Federal land. so he's the mis-manager.

edit: political content
The lands are federal but managed by the state.  Military troops are not trained forest fire fighters.  The border troops are in support roles letting the Border Patrol agents take the prime responsibility in contact with the illegals.  But they can offer a lot of behind the scenes support with maintenance, administration, and providing flying assets.  Sorry you are trying so hard to politicize this thread but I hope it can remain in neutral territory.

Now I would like to ask a question and request to stay away from the politics.  I read on another source that the California legislature had both houses pass by unanimous vote something called the Wildfire Prevention Act under which forest management would have included clearing of undergrowth for fire prevention purposes.  However, the Governor had vetoed the bill.  There must have been nonpolitical reasons for doing that.  Can anybody enlighten us if there even if there was such a bill passed and what the reasons were?  Thanks.

Bill
Bill & Joan N in Missouri
USAF (Ret - 1961-1981)
2002 Winnebago Adventurer 35U
Workhorse W22, 8.1L Chevy V8
2013 Chevy Sonic Toad
Furbearers:  Heidi-17(Forever), Cats: Grace-11.5 & Squeak-6.5, Winnie the ShihTzu - 20 mos

HappyWanderer

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2018, 11:08:18 AM »
Trump is also saying forest mis-management and failure to rake leaves are responsible. The fires started on Federal land. so he's the mis-manager.

Unfortunately, the the Federal government has had its hands tied for quite some time when it comes to forest management. In the past fifteen years, there have been over 1,000 lawsuits filed by "environmental" groups to block timber harvesting and other measures required to keep forest land healthy.

Dire predictions about devastating fires have been ignored for years. The current occupant of the White House is no more responsible than the previous one.
WARNING: This post may contain a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer, or birth defects or other reproductive harm.

Cooperhawk

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2018, 11:09:28 AM »
The problem is all the conflicting forces and ideas that interfere with good management and relief.  FEMA always does a good job if they are left alone.  Now they will be reacting to two major hurricanes along with the wild fires.  I would bet they are stretched very thin.

BTW, The Army or Air Force cannot be deployed into any state until the Governor requests their assistance.  Posse Comitatus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

When Katrina hit New Orleans there was lots of criticizism that the military waited so long to deploy.  The Governor in that case had not asked for them.
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Lou Schneider

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2018, 11:12:37 AM »
Habitat For Humanity is stepping up their disaster response, pledging to build 600 low income homes in the Santa Rosa wildfire area over the next 10 years.

They've already constructed 8 prefabricated homes on a demonstration property.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/8402905-181/habitat-for-humanity-plans-to?sba=AAS

Cooperhawk

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2018, 11:16:06 AM »
Let's take this Natural Management to another level.  Why do we use medicine to prevent deadly disease?  Why not let Nature take it's course?  Isn't that about the same argument that environmentalists take?

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Bill N

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2018, 11:27:07 AM »
 
Let's take this Natural Management to another level.  Why do we use medicine to prevent deadly disease?  Why not let Nature take it's course?  Isn't that about the same argument that environmentalists take?
:)) :)) :))
Bill & Joan N in Missouri
USAF (Ret - 1961-1981)
2002 Winnebago Adventurer 35U
Workhorse W22, 8.1L Chevy V8
2013 Chevy Sonic Toad
Furbearers:  Heidi-17(Forever), Cats: Grace-11.5 & Squeak-6.5, Winnie the ShihTzu - 20 mos

Lou Schneider

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2018, 11:37:03 AM »

Now I would like to ask a question and request to stay away from the politics.  I read on another source that the California legislature had both houses pass by unanimous vote something called the Wildfire Prevention Act under which forest management would have included clearing of undergrowth for fire prevention purposes.  However, the Governor had vetoed the bill.  There must have been nonpolitical reasons for doing that.  Can anybody enlighten us if there even if there was such a bill passed and what the reasons were?  Thanks.

Bill

"In September 2016, Brown vetoed Senate Bill 1463, which aimed to reduce the risk of power lines sparking fires in brush-covered and wooded areas, saying in his veto letter that the bill duplicated existing efforts. SB 1463 had been unanimously approved by the state Legislature."

https://www.politifact.com/california/article/2018/nov/16/examining-jerry-browns-veto-2016-wildfire-legislat/

Bill N

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2018, 02:41:43 PM »
Thanks Lou.  The article did partially explain the reasoning but the legislature must have been grossly misinformed if they passed that bill with no nay votes.  Whatever, the fires are raging now and it will be interesting to see if any legislation comes about as a result of the devastation.

Bill
Bill & Joan N in Missouri
USAF (Ret - 1961-1981)
2002 Winnebago Adventurer 35U
Workhorse W22, 8.1L Chevy V8
2013 Chevy Sonic Toad
Furbearers:  Heidi-17(Forever), Cats: Grace-11.5 & Squeak-6.5, Winnie the ShihTzu - 20 mos

Cooperhawk

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2018, 03:04:18 PM »
The old saying in the FAA was, "Regulations are written in blood!".  I would hope that with this tragedy something comes out correcting the neglect of the forests.  A lot of that dead timber could have been harvested but was not due to Environmental questions.  Now it will be a blame game of who's most at fault which gains nothing.  What is needed are common sense practices on forestry.

But what we'll probably get is more of one side blaming the other and special interest groups stirring the pot with money and threats.
Jim and Carol Cooper with Oreo the Kitty
FAA ATC ret, VFW, AL, VVA, NRA
2002 Journey DL 36, 3126 Cat 330hp
2015 Ford Explorer Blue Ox tow bar, AF1

sightseers

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2018, 08:18:20 AM »
Thanks Lou.  The article did partially explain the reasoning but the legislature must have been grossly misinformed if they passed that bill with no nay votes.  Whatever, the fires are raging now and it will be interesting to see if any legislation comes about as a result of the devastation.

Bill

Ordinarily our CA legislators are in lock step with the governor, but without a new tax fee Gov. Brown will veto any bill that could take revenue from Calpers or the Bullet Train.   His legacy appears to be in serious financial jeopardy.   

Only the Wizard of Oz knows what Governor Newsom is going to do... ;D

Welcome to California   :)) :)) :))

 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 09:09:01 AM by sightseers »

Lou Schneider

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2018, 04:24:56 PM »
Here's a riveting timeline of the first day of the Camp Fire that destroyed Paradise.  There was less than three hours between the time the fire broke out and when the town and it's only exit route was engulfed.

The main evacuation route for 27,000+ residents was a 4 lane road that carried a peak of 1,200 cars per hour during rush hour and was quickly clogged with abandoned vehicles.

What started as a tiny brush fire became California’s deadliest wildfire
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 04:30:41 PM by Lou Schneider »

SeilerBird

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2018, 04:45:18 PM »
Thanks for posting that Lou. How scary. :-[
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dave54

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Re: Paradise?
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2018, 08:58:54 PM »
A lot of misinformation here.

The fire started on National Forest, but quickly burned on to private lands of mixed ownerships (about 1/2 mile distance to forest boundary).  Most of what burned the first day was not 'over choked with 100 years of fire suppression' nonsense (the 10AM fire policy ended in the 1970s).  The area burned in 2008, that fire was stopped at the edge of town.  The vegetation was only 10 years old.  The fire started under a perfect storm of conditions -- 50+mph winds, single digit humidities, and after 8 months of no rain.  All the fuels treatment you could dream up would not have made much of a difference.  Good management would help reduce the damage from other fires, not this one.  Once started, there was not much anyone could do.  Federal policies did not have anything to do with it.

The city of Paradise had a tree removal and landscaping ordinance designed to keep the woodsy forested character of the town.  Fire clearances around homes was near impossible to get through all the city regulations.
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