Furnace malfunctioning. Flame present, fan on, no heat.

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gddmnskwrl

New member
Joined
Dec 2, 2018
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3
So I have a problem with my furnace.

The thermostat is fine, it turns on, the fan runs, it ignites and there is a flame. However, the flame is visibly small and weak, and it does not create enough heat (the air ends up being just slightly warmer). After a while, the fan seems to blow out the flame. The stove is working fine, full flame, propane is full. The furnace worked fine just last season :(

Possible causes? How to troubleshoot?

It's damn cold and my fur-children are complaining! (not to mention my bones...)

Help!
 
Please provide the brand name, year and model of your RV and the brand name and model of your furnace.
 
How can you tell the flame is small or weak?  The burner is an enclosed metal box. The size of the flame is totally dependent on the gas supply volume plus enough air for it to burn well. A reduced flame is lack of either LP gas or air.

There are two fans on one motor. One brings in outside air and pushes it into the burner, thus also pushing out the exhaust. The second fan circulates interior air over the burner box, warming it and pushing it out the heat duct(s).
 
I can see the flame through that silly round window on the furnace. It used to be a larger flame, now it barely lights and goes out easily.

I opened the unit, vacuumed the dust, cleaned all the rust visible to me. I took off the outside vent plate and I don't see anything that could interrupt it :|.

suburban NT-20SE

It's not ignition. Not the fan it seems like. Grrr
 
suburban NT-20SE

Wildwood forest river 18tbhxl

The furnace did work well last year :(....
 
This should be your service manual.


http://www.bdub.net/manuals/Suburban_Service_Manual.pdf
 
Low LP gas pressure would have a similar effect. Check the LP regulator. The furnace gulps propane, so a stove might still work fine on low pressure while a furnace or water heater struggles.

Proper LP pressure is 11 W.C. inches of pressure, about 0.5 psi.
 
Along the same lines, turn off the gas valve at the tank, wait several minutes and then just crack it open (like dribbling a faucet) for 30 seconds or so until the gas lines repressurize.  Then open the valve the rest of the way.

If you hear a "click" while opening the valve, the inrush of gas into the empty supply lines has tripped the excess flow protection device, which is designed to limit the flow out of the tank if a line breaks during an accident, etc.  You'll have to turn the valve off again, wait for the pressure inside the tank to equalize and let the device reset itself (excess flow sucks a ball bearing against the outflow valve, blocking it off), then try again.

If the excess flow device has tripped it will supply enough propane to feed the rest of the appliances but maybe not the gas guzzling furnace.
 
It also sounds like what could happen if you went up in altitude. Higher elevation equals less oxygen to burn. Have you moved at all, or are you in the same place you were when it last worked right?
 
Lou Schneider said:
Along the same lines, turn off the gas valve at the tank, wait several minutes and then just crack it open (like dribbling a faucet) for 30 seconds or so until the gas lines repressurize.  Then open the valve the rest of the way.

If you hear a "click" while opening the valve, the inrush of gas into the empty supply lines has tripped the excess flow protection device, which is designed to limit the flow out of the tank if a line breaks during an accident, etc.  You'll have to turn the valve off again, wait for the pressure inside the tank to equalize and let the device reset itself (excess flow sucks a ball bearing against the outflow valve, blocking it off), then try again.

If the excess flow device has tripped it will supply enough propane to feed the rest of the appliances but maybe not the gas guzzling furnace.

Thanks for that Lou, always wondered why people said to open the valves slowly.  :))
 
Sorry for the long post:

There is a complete misunderstanding of the excessive flow shutoff device posted all over the Internet.  The misunderstanding is both where it is located and how it is designed to function.  There is no reason to open your propane cylinder valve slowly.  Therein lies the misunderstanding of this device.  I certainly don't mean to ruffle anybody's feathers.  I just like to jump on this when I see it because this information is wrong and causes a lot of misguided troubleshooting that often arrives at the wrong conclusions.

The excessive flow shutoff valve is not located in the propane cylinder it is actually located inside the plastic ACME nut on the "pigtail" line that connects the propane cylinder to the regulator.  This excessive flow shutoff actually has two functions.  Yes, it does shut the main flow of propane off in the case of excessive flow such as a propane line break.  However, it only shuts off about 90% of the propane flow.  It is that 10% flow that continues that is part of the second function of this shutoff.  This second function is to pressure check the system.  Here is how that works:

Lets assume that your propane system is at low or at zero pressure.  This would be the case if the cylinder valve was off for a long time, a cylinder was removed for refill, or there is a leak in the system.  So the pressure in the RV system is low or at zero.  You open the propane cylinder valve normally as you should (NOT slowly).  So, what happens is that the propane gas flowing into the low or no pressure system closes the excessive flow shutoff...immediately, as it is designed to function.  It is not likely that you will hear that very subtle click.  If you do hear it that will be immediately as you open the cylinder valve.  With the excessive flow shutoff closing off 90% of the propane flow the remaining 10% flow continues into the system.  The purpose of that 10% flow is to pressure check the propane system.  If there are no leaks in the system, that 10% flow, depending on the size of the system and if there was any pressure in it to start with, will pressurize the system in 5 to 10+ seconds.  When the system pressurizes the pressure equalizes across the excessive flow shut off and you will hear a big click.  That click is NOT the excessive flow shutoff closing...it is the shutoff resetting (opening) and allowing full flow into the system.  There is no reason to open your propane cylinder valve slowly.  You shold open it normally and let the excessive flow shut off do it's job as designed!

I have done a lot of research on this and have interviewed some experts in the propane industry.  I am writing a paper on the propane system for propane cylinder systems.  I may or my not continue into large "tank" systems. That paper isn't done but I can post the section on the ACME "pigtail" nut and it's excessive flow shut off if there is any interest.

To, kind of, address the OPs water heater problem.  I do not know if the water heater problem is related to the excessive flow shutoff.  However, I have given demonstrations where I simulate a leak in the system (open a stove burner with the propane cylinder valve closed).  Leave the stove burner valve open and open the trailer for ventilation.  The system is now at zero pressure.  I open the propane cylinder valve normally.  The propane gas flowing into the system activates (closes) the excessive flow shut off.  The valve does not reset and there is no click 5 to 10 seconds later because the continuing 10% flow cannot pressurize the system with the stove burner open (simulated system leak).  My trailer is now operating on 10% flow.

I go inside and light that burner, just to burn the gas and not continuing with raw gas escaping.  If I did shut the burner off the system would pressurize and the excessive flow shutoff would then reset (click) and allow full flow.  With the stove burner burning on 10% flow I light off my water heater.  It lights fine.  However, I do not know if the flame is big enough to heat water, but it was big enough to satisfy the probe that a flame was present.  It did sound quieter than normal.  Now with the burner still lit and the water heater still lit I fire off the furnace.  Nope!  It tries to light, goes through the cycles and shuts down.

Now I turn off the burner, the water heater and the furnace.  No leaks in the system so the system pressurizes on the 10% flow and the excessive flow shutoff "clicks" and resets.  I now have full flow and can light all burners on the stove, fire up the water heater and furnace, all at the same time, and everything now functions normally.

Note:  I have a auto switching regulator with the red and green flag.  I noticed that the flag would turn green even on the 10% flow with the simulated leak.  If I turned the cylinder valve back off (with the stove burner On simulating a leak) the flag would immediately turn red.  If I repeated this with the burner off (no leak) the flag would stay green when the cylinder valve was closed.  So, on my trailer at leased, this could be used as a quick visual leak check.

Again.....Sorry for the long post.    
 
A nice write-up, but be aware that not all RV LP hookups have ACME connections. Many still use either hard or soft nose POL connections. If the click I sometimes hear when opening a cylinder service valve too quickly is supposed to reset when the pressure equalizes, I have three different POL fittings that don't work that way. Once they click, there is insufficient flow to operate my furnaces, water heater, stove, or grill properly. Closing the service valve and bleeding off the pressure before slowly reopening the valve fixes the flow problem every time.
 
RVfixer said:
Sorry for the long post:

The excessive flow shutoff valve is not located in the propane cylinder it is actually located inside the plastic ACME nut on the "pigtail" line that connects the propane cylinder to the regulator.

You are assuming the tank on the RV is a modern ACME valve type tank and not an older Prest-O-Lite (POL) like on most class A's  We make no such assumption.
 
If the shut-off valve is in the pigtail and not the tank(actually the valve assembly), how come you can open the valve on the cylinder without it being hooked up and not get any gas out of it?
 
Reply to Old_Crow:  The change that added the overfill protection device (OPD) in 1998 added a few other safety devices as follows:

The overfill protection float valve (OPD) in the cylinder to prevent the cylinder from being filled more than 80%.  Here is some additional little known information:  The old cylinder valve (before 1998) contained a vent screw.  That screw was connected to a dip tube that went down to the 80% level in the cylinder.  When filling the cylinder the attendant was to open the vent valve which would vent propane gas during filling.  When liquid propane came out the vent that indicated that the cylinder was 80% full and the attendant was to stop the filling.  In fact that vent and dip tube is still there in the new cylinder valve and is supposed to be used.  The attendant is suppose to use it when filling a cylinder.  The OPD was suppose to be a backup in case the attendant failed to stop filling when liquid propane appeared at the vent outlet.  Most attendants just depend on the OPD.  That is what you learn if you go to certification training.  Whether it really matters which to use, in order know when to stop filling. I have no idea.  However, when people start using information and/or procedures that they "think" are correct that is when problems occur and safety or compromised!!

** Your answer: There is quick disconnect check valve type device in the cylinder outlet valve that will not let propane gas release from the cylinder outlet unless the ACME "pigtail" line nut is properly connected to the cylinder.  The "pigtail" line nut has a built in device that pushes the cylinder outlet check valve to the open position.  This prevents gas from being released from the cylinder unless the "pigtail" line nut is attached to the cylinder and prevents leaks in case the "pigtail" nut is not properly connected.  This has nothing to do with the excessive flow shutoff which is located inside the ACME "Pigtail" line nut.

Also added to the new (1998) ACME "pigtail" line nut is an overtemp device.  If this plastic ring reaches it's melting temperature it releases a spring loaded device the closes off the outlet orifice in the "pigtail" line.  However, in the case of a fire, if the cylinder becomes over pressurized from the high temperature the cylinder over pressure relief valve, located in the cylinder valve, will open and release propane gas until the pressure lowers enough for the relief spring to close the valve.

In conclusion:  The propane cylinder valve is referred to as the OPD valve for ordering.  In actuality the cylinder valve ("OPD") actually contains the OPD valve, the over pressure relief valve and the outlet check valve.

The "Pigtail" line ACME nut contains the device that opens the cylinder check valve, the over temperature shutoff and the excessive flow shutoff device.

 
To the folks calling my attention to the POL systems.  You are correct.  I did jump at that.  Thanks for calling that out.  I stand corrected!  However, I was actually trying to address the huge amount of misinformation that can be found online and on this board, on other threads, that refer to not opening the "cylinder" valves too quickly.  That is all correct information that I posted but may not apply to the OPs system...just as the other post that said to open the valve slowly may not apply either, depending on the OPs system which was not identified.  My information IS correct for the ACME "cylinder" after 1998 and may not apply to "tank" systems.  I have some studied tank systems as of yet.  Those two terms (cylinder and tank) have very different meanings and there are several differences.  I have studied the "cylinder" systems (post 1998) which I have found very interesting and very commonly misunderstood.  The pre 1998 "cylinders" are no longer legal to fill unless the cylinder has been updated with the new OPD valve.

Anyway, Thanks for pointing out the errors of my ways.  My information was/is correct for propane cylinder systems but that may not be what the OP has.
 
gddmnskwrl said:
I can see the flame through that silly round window on the furnace. It used to be a larger flame, now it barely lights and goes out easily.
I opened the unit, vacuumed the dust, cleaned all the rust visible to me. I took off the outside vent plate and I don't see anything that could interrupt it :|.
suburban NT-20SE
It's not ignition. Not the fan it seems like. Grrr
gddmnskwrl
I suspect you have a propane regulator problem.
Replacement 2 stage propane regulators are available for either VERTICAL mounting, https://tinyurl.com/ycvrknnj, or HORIZONTAL mounting, https://tinyurl.com/ybvh4lqd


 
In fact that vent and dip tube is still there in the new cylinder valve and is supposed to be used.  The attendant is suppose to use it when filling a cylinder. 

RVFixer: This vent and dip tube system has never been used in Canadian built tanks AFIK, (just as an FYI), as you may run into some of them. The vent screw does not seem to exist here and tanks are filled without using one.
 
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