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Author Topic: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question  (Read 411 times)

X-Roughneck

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Hello, I am new to the board.  We are a near term buyers. I realize the Diesel Engines produce far more Torque Production, and will be better suited for towing and hauling getting over the mountain ranges out west, but is that really true with the Tiffin Breeze 275 HP diesel?    I am not locked in on Tiffin Breeze, but just using their brochures to pull specs from.  I want adequate performance and reasonable cost of operation from a fuel consumption stand point.  I am not 100% locked in on Diesel, but am leaning that way.

Criteria is we prefer something not too old under 10 years max if we are going diesel, with full fiberglass roof.  I am intrigued by both Tiffin, and especially Newmar products.  I would also welcome comments on good current MFGs of Motor homes.  We are not going to be able to get in crazy luxury $$ ranges on our purchases.  We definitely want to limit the length to 30'-35' to keep most camp sites in play / visiting potential, and at a high end spend no more than $140K TT&L included as a out the door price. The only options we will not budge on is a King Size Bed and Washer Dryer hook up potential.

/// My BIGGEST question / concern  is after reading the Tiffin brochures is the Torque production of the Diesel’s 275 HP diesel adequate?  Should a 340HP Cummings be the entry level performance specs potential Diesel Pusher buyers be considering?

Can somebody describe the reality I would be experiencing going up a Big Hill out west crossing Mountain ranges towing my Mazda CX-5 with a 275 HP Diesel as opposed to Gas V10? Will I be praying somebody won't slam into my rear on my ascent?

Please, let me hear the feedback from V10 owners.  Is their buyers Remorse?  What are you towing and tell me about those trips over the mountains.  Are you super disappointed in your fuel cost operation?

I have a 2018 Mazda CV-5, FWD, curb weight is approx 3650 LBS.  It can be dolly towed. 

For towing I plan on purchasing (EZE Car Dolly, MFG by Acme Tow Dolly out of NC), I understand the transaxle FWD of my Mazda will not allow a 4 wheel on the ground tow or it will trash the transmissions.  I can't find the Tow Dolly weight on their site.  (Guessing 650 LBs ????)

//Should I get something like a smart car instead as the TOAD?  I hate to get rid of the paid off Mazda.

Tow limits at 5000 LBs seem to be popular among specs.  With my Madza tipping the scales at 3600 + unknown weight of Tow Dolly it seems I am nearing max capacity which I know can’t be a good thing.  Are gas MH owners crazy for towing cars behind in the first place?

Factoring in gear, Towing weights and fluid weights is confusing. 

We are not pack rats and don’t plan on loading the home down like the Beverly Hillbillies, we are average weight and size people (190 lb-120 lb). 

We don't have outside adventure toys, and won’t buy any.  Probably limit the basement equip to a small BBQ pit and the normal maintenance crap one would have in the basements. 

Is the V10 the I am going camping on the weekend 200 miles from the house and returning on Sunday? Are USA travelers idiots loading up a V10 and heading out on a coast to coast journey?

With cost of operation, purchasing Gas or Diesel, I am trying to decide if lack of power with the Gas is a show stopper, or am I burning twice the gas negating fuel savings cost? Am I going to trash the V10 driving it from sea to Shining sea and back? I am not in a hurry to get anywhere.  I plan on spending 30-45 days in areas crossing the country.  We are going to rent the sticks and brick house and hit the road

Does the Ford V10 hold have a track record of being a solid performer?  I fully understand the Diesel is superior but is the 275 HP diesel live up to that standard?

I pulled the below specs from brochures on the Tiffin Website


LEFT SIDE: Diesel Breeze (31' and 33')--- --vs—RIGHT: Gas (Open Road Allegro shows 32, 34', 36 variety)

//Engine: ISV5.0  /275 Cummings --vs-- Ford 6.8 V10

// 560 Peak Torque --vs--460 Peak Torque at 3000 RPM

// Gross Vehicle Weight Rating:  24,500 on 33' diesel  --vs—26,000 on the 34” gas

// Gross Combined Weight Rating: 29,000 diesel --vs-- 30,000


Bottom Line:

Looking at these numbers the breeze’s Diesel engine at 275 HP is this a Diesel I would want to stay away from if I am going to be a Diesel Buyer? Should I be considering a 340 HP Cummings as the Low end of the performance bar at 340 HP in the diesel category, or is this 275 HP model of diesel equivalent to Gas V10 specs and is designed to match out of pocket operating costs of the Gas V10 models?

Hoping to get some responses out of V10 owners, Breeze Owners, and V10 gas owners where they describe their experiences, towing vehicles crossing those mountain ranges.

Also hope I can get some feedback from Gary RV_Wizard and other MH Pros that frequently post.

I do realize the questions are a bit much.

Happy Holidays to All.

JD

lynnmor

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 08:33:09 AM »
For well over 100 years, horsepower has been the measure of work that can be done.  Only you can know how low you want to go in regards to performance.  Don't get caught up in the juvenile torque arguments.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2018, 09:04:08 AM »
I totally agree with lynnmor. And you are way overthinking the towing aspect.

Horsepower is the measure, not torque. Further, torque & Hp are proportional and more torque produces more horsepower.  The difference between gas & diesel is the Rpms at which the horsepower is produced - diesels have more torque at the low end and thus produce their Hp without reving the engine way up. That's convenient for hill climbing and moving heavy loads from a standing start, but at the end of the day its still the Hp that does the work.  So, the real question is the 275 Hp of the diesel vs the 320 Hp (and 460 lb-ft of torque) of a V10 gas engine in A Class A chassis. Related to that is your willingness to rev the gas engine to the 3000-4000 rpms needed to get that max hp & torque.


The RV industry rule of thumb is that 1 hp should be provided for each 100 lbs of vehicle weight.  Most owners like to include the weight of the toad as well, so yes the Breeze comes up a bit on the light side while towing.  Not horribly so, but if you have a "need for speed", you may feel frustration.   However, you are going to be frustrated with any motorhome, because Hp/weight rations in all of them are crappy compared to the cars or pick-ups you are familiar with.  Most cars have at least 1 hp per 20 lbs, thus  5x or more than the power of a typical motorhome.


Yes, you would probably be much happier with a 340 hp ISB than with the smaller ISV 275 hp engine, but there is no need to fear getting to the top of the hill. You won't be at the front of the pack, though.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 09:45:43 AM »
     We drove our 34 foot 275 HP cummins for over 10 years towing a Jeep Liberty.  We had three 8,000 mile trips and several 6,000 mile ones.  As Gary said, we never made it to the top of a mountain as quickly as we would have in our SUV, but we never ever had to disconnect the toad to make it up either.  We went coast to coast on those long trips, so the 275 is certainly a decent choice.
     However, the choice between diesel and gas has a lot of other considerations.   For example, virtually all diesels are pushers, and that makes the noise level much lower than sitting on a gas motor.  Our MH had air suspension, which provides significantly better ride and handling.  I'd say the fuel economy was marginally better, but unlike Canada, diesel is more expensive than gas, so it is a virtual wash.
     Ultimately, I would recommend you look for the floorplan with the trim and quality that you want, and be satisfied with either gas or diesel when you find the coach that best suits your wants.

Ed
Ed & Donna
Winter-Pinellas Park FL, Summer- Maritime Canada
2000 Coachmen Catalina 34' DP (owned 2004 to 2015)
2006 Jeep Liberty Toad

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 10:07:10 AM »
I totally agree with lynnmor. And you are way overthinking the towing aspect.

As a couple of follow ups:

1. One thing I was a bit confused about. 5000 LB max towing for the hitch.  If the car is at 3600 curb weight and Guessing the Tow dolly is around 700 LBS actual weight.  My math says that is 4300 LBs, so 700 LBs away from max, right?  Should I be looking for a lighter car as the TOAD or should this be of no real concern?  I can see that getting a car that allows all wheels to contact the ground will be much less of a hassle connecting and disconnecting, especially on those bad weather days.

2. Any Motor Home Manufacturers that are know for better build quality?  In my initial post I have really liked the Newmar and Tiffin and saw a Winnebago that caught my eye.  Any other suggestions to look at?  Or MFG to definitely stay away from?

Thanks again for the information and your time.

JD

edit: inserted missing "end quote" formatting tag.  -LS
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:47:54 PM by Lou Schneider »

grashley

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 06:52:20 PM »
Welcome to the Forum!

The Ford V10 has been around a long time with a decent track record.  As Gary said, the diesel is usually a "pusher" with the motor in the back, so it is quieter and has a softer air suspension.  The V10 is probably located between the seats, so it is creating more noise in the front seats.  Plus it must rev higher to get max power.  Either motor should be reliable and provide sufficient power to get you "over the mountain".

Going used is a very wise choice, especially with somewhat limited resources.  You can get the better coach with nice amenities without breaking the bank.  As you have already observed, Tiffin and Newmar are higher quality rigs than many.  the age makes them affordable.  FLOOR PLAN and  CONDITION are by far the most important criteria.

For the toad, you are under the weight limits.  Nuf said.  No need to fret about the weight.

For weight estimates, use the coach GVWR as a good estimate.  You should be under that weight by packing frugally, but weight creep always takes place over time.  A trip to the scales will tell you where you really are after you get and pack the coach.
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 05:30:55 AM »
Thanks Grashley.  Appreciate your input. 

Recapping. When out deciding on the purchase Factor:

Take Unloaded Vehicle Weight (UVC): Then Add Tow vehicle & Dolly, Water, Cargo, Persons weights together.  This Sum should not exceed: Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), right? 

I can see now with water weighing 8.3 LBs per gallon, packing "frugally" as you say is extremely important.  With the MH in the 30'-35' range looking at the MH brochures the weight of the creature comforts you pack better be fairly low.  I bet for sure there are alot of vehicles rolling down the road that are more than a few LBs overweight. 

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 09:46:43 AM »
According to RVSafety.org, nearly half of all RVs are overweight on at least one wheel position. They may not exceed their GVWR, but the loading is heavy & unbalanced enough to overload either an entire axle or one end of an axle.  This is based on their actual weigh-ins of numerous rigs at RV rallys.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Alfa38User

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 12:25:23 PM »
Quote
Then Add Tow vehicle & Dolly....This Sum should not exceed:Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), right?

 Two wheels of the (towed) car are on the roadway and two wheels are on  the dolly wheels (effectively all that weight is on the roadway) so there is very little weight actually placed on the RV. They are more like a trailer arrangement where only 10% of the total weight might be carried on a hitch. The total weight of the RV + car + dolly become the CGVWR when added to the GVWR of the RV (Maximum weight of all vehicles). GVWR is the max weight of the loaded vehicle (RV) itself including anything you stuff in it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 12:49:11 PM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

Utclmjmpr

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 03:48:48 PM »
 If you buy the CUMMINS,, you will want to learn the name of the manufacturer.>>>Dan
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
Jeep liberty 4 down
72 VW Baja 4 down
Cedar City, Utah
USAF vet. 59-63
The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
      Albert Einstein.

grashley

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 06:13:04 PM »
Thanks Grashley.  Appreciate your input. 

Recapping. When out deciding on the purchase Factor:

Take Unloaded Vehicle Weight (UVC): Then Add Tow vehicle & Dolly, Water, Cargo, Persons weights together.  This Sum should not exceed: Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), right? 

I can see now with water weighing 8.3 LBs per gallon, packing "frugally" as you say is extremely important.  With the MH in the 30'-35' range looking at the MH brochures the weight of the creature comforts you pack better be fairly low.  I bet for sure there are alot of vehicles rolling down the road that are more than a few LBs overweight.

NOT correct!  The GVWR includes the UVW and everything carried ON or IN the RV, including passengers, cargo and water..  It does NOT include anything being towed, other than the tongue wt.

The GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) (the higher number) includes the weight of anything being towed.

The fully loaded Breeze can weigh up to 24,500#.  With the toad, the total weight can be up to 29,000#.  The toad weight is NOT limited to 4,500#.  If the fully loaded Breeze is only 24,100#, that leaves an extra 400# that could be carried in the toad.

I trust this is GOOD news!
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 05:50:22 PM »
If you buy the CUMMINS,, you will want to learn the name of the manufacturer.>>>Dan

Sorry, I only graduated from the school of hard knocks.  Point taken though.

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 05:51:43 PM »
NOT correct!  The GVWR includes the UVW and everything carried ON or IN the RV, including passengers, cargo and water..  It does NOT include anything being towed, other than the tongue wt.

The GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) (the higher number) includes the weight of anything being towed.

The fully loaded Breeze can weigh up to 24,500#.  With the toad, the total weight can be up to 29,000#.  The toad weight is NOT limited to 4,500#.  If the fully loaded Breeze is only 24,100#, that leaves an extra 400# that could be carried in the toad.

I trust this is GOOD news!

Thanks for taking me to School, Grashley.

grashley

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 07:03:18 PM »
Numbers can be confusing.  Somehow, they are better understood when you have a need to figure it out!
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 07:19:37 AM »
Just our of curiosity.  I have the tow dolly info and the tongue weight, but what about a drive up and on trailer for a Mazda CX-5, where the entire car is on a trailer?  Specs of Mazda 14' long x 6' wide. Is there a common or highly recommended MFG that produce compact trailers for small car tow?  Hate to get too long rolling down the road 30'-35' + Plus. 

I never see cars being towed in this fashion behind motor homes.  Is this a stupid thought? I think the dolly did not have to be registered because it was considered equipment, I know this would not be true for a trailer.

I can see the benefit of a drive on for the sheer fact of not having to roll around directly on the ground.  Still have not ruled out selling the car and getting something I can 4 wheel tow only having to connect a wishbone bar to but hate to sell  a very low mileage car outright and take a beating on the price.

Still examining all options.  Last post for awhile.   

Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 07:51:50 AM »
     JD, similar to the diesel versus gas, how you set up your toad is a lot more involved than it appears on the surface.  For example, 4 down is the quickest and easiest method, but won't work without alteration for many vehicles.  Trailers and dollies present a problem of where you store them once you are set up.  Only a trailer allows you to back up, 4 down skulls the front tires slightly, and so on.  All I can say is that after using a friend's dolly, we chose to go with 4 down and were never sorry.  However, most of those using dollies are equally happy.  I would think the added difficulty of loading and unloading on a trailer would be the least convenient, but likely the best drivable, if you are only transporting to a location that you plan on remaining at for a long time.
     All that to say, it becomes a decision of personal choice with no right or wrong answer.

Ed
Ed & Donna
Winter-Pinellas Park FL, Summer- Maritime Canada
2000 Coachmen Catalina 34' DP (owned 2004 to 2015)
2006 Jeep Liberty Toad

grashley

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 06:16:57 PM »
When I did a non scientific survey a year ago, of 25 MH with a toad, one was on a trailer, 4 on a dolly, and the rest were 4 down.

Yes, folks DO use 4 up trailers.   It should not affect your overall length.  The trailer tongue replaces the dolly tongue.  There is no need for a trailer longer than the car.  As long as all tires are up and secure, you can even have the car overhang the trailer!

As Ed said, there are plus and minus to all three choices.  Any of them will work.
Preacher Gordon, DW Debbie
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS  Progressive HW50C
Andersen Ultimate hitch
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4   TST TMS  Garmin 760
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

Old_Crow

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2018, 07:08:13 AM »
There is no need for a trailer longer than the car.

Unless you're my B-I-L.  He carried a Mustang, a Harley Dyna, 2 bicycles, 2 cheapo scooters, and enough yard ornaments to choke a horse.
After his first trip with this rig, he went out and bought a bigger coach with a bigger motor.
Wally Crow
Retired 30 year ASE Master Auto Tech
Y2K Bounder 36S F53
'03 Jeep Wrangler Sahara

"Well, my time of not taking you seriously is coming to a middle."

X-Roughneck

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2018, 10:36:40 AM »
1. Trailers and dollies present a problem of where you store them once you are set up.   

2. I would think the added difficulty of loading and unloading on a trailer would be the least convenient.
   
Ed

These two statements above by Ed really jump off the page at me. I am going to have to really think about this.  The convenience of a 4 down TOAD is sounding better all the time.  The headache factor also has to be considered.

Thanks for everybody's $0.02 on this matter.

RedandSilver

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 12:32:20 PM »
Here's my 2 cents.

IF possible most people will tow 4 down as there is nothing else to store after disconnecting.
The only 2 issues towing 4 down are - you can't back up and the cost to setup the vehicles to be towed.

The backup problem is or can be much less with a diesel as most will fuel up at truck stops which have straight pull troughs.
With a gas unit, you usually fuel with the car's and in some cases it can be a nightmare by comparison to a pull through.
 
Your comment about wanting a shorter unit so you will fit in more spots is somewhat unfounded.
I have a 40ft MH and when my trailer is hooked up I'm 65ft.  I haven't had any problems finding some place to stay yet.
I call ahead and tell them what I have and if they can't take me, I find another park that can without too much trouble.

I know everyone is different so one size doesn't fit all - but I'm 40ft and alone and I wouldn't want anything smaller.
I also knew that I would be towing so I wanted at least 330hp when looking for a MH - I ending up with 350.
I have a computer program which shows me HP and Torque readings and I have seen them max out - and I drive 55-58mph
(on the highways) almost all the time, and still slow down on hills. 

Good luck with what ever you choose to get.
2002 Rexhall Rose Air  Cummins 8.3  350hp
West MI Summer   Central FL Winter

sightseers

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Re: Small Diesel 275 Cumming -vs- Gas Ford V10- Performance / Towing Question
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 03:59:45 PM »
According to RVSafety.org, nearly half of all RVs are overweight on at least one wheel position. They may not exceed their GVWR, but the loading is heavy & unbalanced enough to overload either an entire axle or one end of an axle.  This is based on their actual weigh-ins of numerous rigs at RV rallys.
You would be surprised how many highly weight regulated Commercial vehicles... are driving around overweight on one or more axles.

I drove commercial trucks for years and I personally know how bad the weight cheating was.