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Author Topic: Crazy TV outlet  (Read 1712 times)

djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #60 on: February 03, 2019, 06:23:17 PM »
Thanks,

I know there are a ton of wires that drop down from the roof inside the partition wall next to the fridge and stove but I don't want to be cutting holes where the wallpaper is.  I guess I could (as i have done before) cut a roof panel to find the TV wire, then just patch the seam with a piece of white trim.

But it might be better to just purchase a wire finder beeper and trace it that way, at least that way if it is not found behind the panel then that goes to show I may have been correct that it is dead ended somewhere in the ceiling.

Now if the wire is found but just not connected properly (using a wire finder beeper) then I can run a continuity test to see if the wire is broken. Then if that passes I may try to hook it back up to the panel breaker and see if it trips the breaker. If it does not trip the breaker then I will remove the hack leg off the last outlet (that goes to feed) and we are back in business.  Now if it does trip the breaker then I will either have to attach new romex and use the pull feed technique to replace the old romex or just hook it up to the new sub breaker and leave the abandoned romex in the wall forever. 

I will keep you all posted, thanks
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 06:25:35 PM by djw2112 »
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2019, 10:34:21 AM »
Quote
But my situation is not normal as I have two outlets that are also powered by the direct feed and bypassing the main panel.
Well, you have eyes on it and I don't, but I find it very hard to believe that is the case. Further, nothing you have described so far suggests that those circuits do not flow through the main panel.
But it's your RV, so have at it. 
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2019, 01:14:27 PM »
Well, you have eyes on it and I don't, but I find it very hard to believe that is the case. Further, nothing you have described so far suggests that those circuits do not flow through the main panel.
But it's your RV, so have at it.

No need to get bent out of shape there gary, I was not being grumpy with you sir.    Today I ordered a wire tracer (beeper) so when it arrives I will be able to know for sure. 

In this new pic it shows all three items (main feed from shore power, continuation of that feed via the orange romex to the main panel, and outlet romex), now there has to be a reason why they added this power tap for the outlet and did not use the main panel.  Until i get my tracer i wont be able to find the other end of this to see if it is deadheaded at the main panel or inside the wall somewhere.    I suspect that it was originally connected to the main panel but got changed and someone felt the best answer was to do a tap into the shore power.  Now they could have been trying to use the main breaker as protection for this, but that did not work.  I did not hook the outlet back up yet, that is why it is just laying there.  I am waiting for my sub panel to come in as well, i can do without this circut till then.

 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 01:17:18 PM by djw2112 »
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cavie

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2019, 06:44:54 PM »
The problem you have is not for the DIY electrician. it could be one of many things. Converter, inverter, shore power cord are not the problem. It is with the wiring. You need to learn the language in order for us to help. Your working with Hot, Neutral and Ground. How did you measure Ground to Ground? The neutral and grounds are tied together at the main shore power panel and no where else. Not at the pedestal at you site.
The ped is considered a sub-panel. N-G are separate.

Neutral to ground has to be O volts. If you have voltage between neutral and ground you have a VERY unsafe condition. If it is raining and you touch any metal on the outside or a door handle on the way in you could get shocked and die.

The problem is most likely loose or burned connection behind an outlet. It will be hard to find. Outlets are daisy changed so look behind the outlets to the left and right of the troubled one.  But since you admitted not knowing anything about electricity I suggest you call an electrician. You don't need an RV specialist. Any good electrician will do. This is a safety issue. Sparks cause fires.

PLEASE CALL AN ELECTRICIAN BEFORE YOU GET HURT. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 06:56:13 PM by cavie »
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2019, 06:53:48 PM »
Thanks cavie, the problem has already been found and fixed regarding the burned wires, i just need to make it better by adding a sub panel.   When i get my wire tracer ill be able to know there the daisy chained wire goes off the TV outlet and then go from there depending on its condition.   So all is well now, the hard part is over!  Thank you for caring enough to say something, it is appreciated.   

When i say that i mean i know some of the basics.  Like payday is on friday, a really cool tool belt makes you look amazing, wire nuts come in lots of colors, on cold days always keep the electrical tape in your pocket.  LMAO

But seriously - i did spend 1 year as a electrical apprentice (helper) on new construction and old commercial stuff.  So i did not learn everything but i do have some knowledge.  I left when my male boss made a pass at me, i said nope and left never to return.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 07:07:53 PM by djw2112 »
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catblaster

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2019, 07:22:33 PM »
  First glance at that outlet and It looked like a cut-in box. something that might have been added by the PO. Oh and a good looking tool belt does make one look amazing but a brand new one makes you look like a rookie. First thing to do is rub it in the dirt and wire lube.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2019, 07:29:04 PM »
  First glance at that outlet and It looked like a cut-in box. something that might have been added by the PO. Oh and a good looking tool belt does make one look amazing but a brand new one makes you look like a rookie. First thing to do is rub it in the dirt and wire lube.

 But before you put tools in it you gotta run it over with the truck a few times also LMAO :)
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cavie

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2019, 07:47:46 PM »
I had a thought last night and I hope i have not confused anyone here.  There are two places behind the TV one is a normal household outlet and one is a cigarette lighter type plugin.   It is the normal household outlet that I am referring to that is not working.  On the cigarette style plug there is a button beside it, I believe this may be the way to turn on the inverter but not sure I will need to look up some docs on that.

But my thought was that maybe that button when pressed in turns the inverter (which is part of that switch itself) on and disables part of the household plug.  But I tried pressing the button in and out and still same issue with household plug.    So maybe that cigarette plug and the switch behind it is bad.  I will take that off the wall today and check out the back side to see what is there.


The 12 volt outlet has no connection to the 120 volt system. Two separate systems. Never the two shall meet
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cavie

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2019, 08:35:58 PM »
Don't try to GFI protect your hole trailer. You will not like the results and the constant tripping. If you do it will have to be a GFI Breaker. Not an outlet. Outlets don't trip on amp overload. GFI's are required to be installed on any outlet that is within 6' of a water supply. Inside and out. The orange Romex is #10/ with ground. It is the correct wire to the main panel. I'm guessing someone ran the xtra RX wire to a special outlet, probably for an electric heater. Does the added RX match the wire to the outlet behind the TV? I saw mention of a cut it box. That where this strange wire goes. The factory did not use cut in boxes. It was possibly easier to get to the J-box than to the main panel and he was relying on the 30 amp to protect it.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2019, 11:49:51 PM »
Just to show what I have,  here is a mock up

In the mock up there are two ends of the romex, the broken romex is the one that i need to trace to see where it goes and why it is not being used from the main panel as it should be.  The red line indicated is the hack tap that someone did for some reason.   I either need to remove the broken line or the hack tap, makes no sense to have both.

If i can find where the broken line goes and why it is not connected to power, then i can decide what to do about that line, possibly remove it.   Or keep it and remove the red hack tap and connect the other one to the panel as it should be.

Here is the pic
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cavie

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2019, 09:45:36 AM »
Just to show what I have,  here is a mock up

In the mock up there are two ends of the romex, the broken romex is the one that i need to trace to see where it goes and why it is not being used from the main panel as it should be.  The red line indicated is the hack tap that someone did for some reason.   I either need to remove the broken line or the hack tap, makes no sense to have both.

If i can find where the broken line goes and why it is not connected to power, then i can decide what to do about that line, possibly remove it.   Or keep it and remove the red hack tap and connect the other one to the panel as it should be.


Here is the pic

Is the first outlet from the shore power a factory outlet and are both pieces of rx the same color/brand?

is the TV outlet a factory outlet and are both pieces of RX the same color/brand?
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2019, 10:22:34 AM »
Yes both are exactly same brand and type and color of romex and both outlets are factory type
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2019, 01:04:24 PM »
I got my sub panel in today,  here is a video of the exact box that i have but i have a question and he does not address it on the video.

Question is why does he have two hots at the top?   Nevermind he explained it to me.

I think ill have to put in a jumper from main top hot lug to the other top lug in order to use both breaker slots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzDIf4M1Sec

and a pic of the box in case you dont want to sit through the boring video.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 02:02:28 PM by djw2112 »
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cavie

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2019, 08:03:39 PM »
Yes both are exactly same brand and type and color of romex and both outlets are factory type


Well that tells me they are not part of your hacked wiring job. unless the factory hacked it.

Yes, you jump the top lugs to use both legs.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2019, 08:53:32 PM »
Thanks,  what if they cut off the other end somewhere then made the hack connection, they would be using the same kind of wire.   I cant wait for my wire tracer to get here so i can solve this case... :)
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2019, 07:08:13 PM »
howdy all,

well got my tracer in today, thought i had it tracked to inside the ceiling where it stopped but seems there was interferience from the AC ducktwork.    So after ripping down the ceiling i finally traced it running down along side the fridge, cut a hole in the wall and sure enough they dead ended it right there.   Not sure why they did that but i guess i can run some romex from the main panel and fish it down under the fridge (cabinet there) and then over to the main panel.   Then i get get rid of that hack leg on the other end. 

However before i jump too fast i suppose i need to make sure the wire in the wall and ceiling is good, even though power went through it before as it was hooked up, i need to make sure it is good.  I am not sure if i feel safer with just testing to make sure it is not broken along the way or just tieing on a new batch of romex and pulling it through the ceiling, at least that way i know its good.  But to do that i will need to cut the other ceiling panel also.    Ill have to think about this for a few.

see pics



« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:20:54 PM by djw2112 »
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SeilerBird

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2019, 04:24:24 AM »
I would guess it was abandoned for a good reason. I would replace the wire entirely.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2019, 04:45:58 PM »
I would guess it was abandoned for a good reason. I would replace the wire entirely.

Thanks, yeah ill get some 14-3 romex and rip the old stuff out and put in new wire.  :)

The bigger issue i am having is that the hole i cut in the wall is just under 6x6 and im sure i will find it very hard to find a 6x6 inch blank cover plate, even a 4 gang blank is not 6" tall.  So i may have to just poke around the hardware store and try to find some kind of cover that is 6x6 to go over the access hole.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:48:59 PM by djw2112 »
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SeilerBird

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2019, 05:26:16 PM »
Thanks, yeah ill get some 14-3 romex and rip the old stuff out and put in new wire.  :)

The bigger issue i am having is that the hole i cut in the wall is just under 6x6 and im sure i will find it very hard to find a 6x6 inch blank cover plate, even a 4 gang blank is not 6" tall.  So i may have to just poke around the hardware store and try to find some kind of cover that is 6x6 to go over the access hole.
I use my printer to print an 8 x 10, frame it and put it on the wall over the hole.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #79 on: February 15, 2019, 02:18:39 AM »
lol i would like something besides paper to patch that.    I was trying to figure out why they ran the wire in the ceiling all the way around the roof AC unit, seemed like the longest route.   Then as i looked up where i thought it should have run, i guess they did it that way so that they would not have to travel accross roof beams and there are a few of those accross the area over the counter top where i was planning to run the new wire.   

I also do not want to drill wire holes in the beams as it could weaken them.   I did cut the wire in the roof and pulled out some of it to check it, it all looks good no issues with it.   

They had to of had the fridge out at one time, that was the only way to get to that wire where they cut it.  I believe what they did was they needed a plugin somewhere either in the fridge area or somewhere and rather than take the time to run a new line from the panel breaker they just decided to sacrifice and dead end this line.  And then took the other half they cut off and used that for their outlet or whatever.  Then they just hacked the other end of this line where the main power comes in.   

But the line looks perfect (i can see about 100% of it so far, i can move it so its not broken or in a junction box on the ceiling, and none of the wires are broken in the line.  So i may just try to reroute it  on the cabinet side of the AC and hook it back up.   

Actually i would not be at all surprised that the dealership did this hack job in order to sell the unit.  That means that they did not put the wire nuts on correctly and certainly never taped them afterwards.  The dealer was rocky mountain RV and marine in albuquerque NM.    I say this because you should have seen them trying to hook up the wires on my 5th wheel connection on my truck, they did not do a very good job there either, i fixed that as well.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 03:38:07 AM by djw2112 »
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John From Detroit

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #80 on: February 15, 2019, 07:55:30 AM »
Re-6x6 Hole in wall.. .there are two solutions one is "ugly" one is "Nice".

Ugly fix. Hardware stores sell sheets of metal like 3'x3'  cut a piece the size you need and drill 4 holes. Round the edges ai bit with a sander or grinder and job done.

Nice: Hobby shops seel pieces of wood used for artwork (paint stuff on 'em )( and some are big enough for your needs.. Just finish it (Stain/Varnish) and screw it down.
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Old_Crow

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #81 on: February 15, 2019, 08:06:18 AM »
I cut an access hole in the closet of our coach.  I then went to the local lumber yard and bought a stick of 1 1/2" wide baseboard trim.  I cut 4 pieces like a picture frame and attached them with staples and glue to the piece I removed in such a manor that the trim overhung the edges of the piece.  I then attached some velcro to the overhanging pieces of trim with the mating surfaces on the wall of the RV.  The panel sticks back in place, yet is still removable if I need to.  Stained the trim to match the existing, and it looks like a factory access plate.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2019, 08:07:40 AM »
I decided to make my own custom patch insert for the large hole.   I looked at lowes and other places and noone had any 3 or 4 gang blanks.   So for the one 3 gang blank for the ceiling i had to tape the back of it and fill in the switch holes with caulk.    I did hand texture the new molding and switch plates.  For the custom cover i took some molding and painted it gold then glued the original cutout behind it.  It took quite a bit of time to tape the ceiling molding but you get a much better cleaner outcome.

To texure it i just put some caulk on the molding and then used my finger to dab it rapidly, or you could use a sponge to dab it.   Now on the next warm day ill paint the ceiling.

I am still working on tapping into the panel, i have one more wall between the panel and the fridge to drill through and then this project is just about done.  But im waiting because i have to turn off all the power and remove the panel again to do that safely.   But at least now with my internal sub panel i dont have to go outside anymore to kill the shore power, i just flip the inside sub breaker :)

But i did get the box done under the fridge.   I used an old yellow cover plate that i had that had one corner broken off so i just taped it.



Here are some photos. 



 

« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 08:13:21 AM by djw2112 »
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Joezeppy

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2019, 08:19:22 AM »
Looks good - I'd say you blended everything in nicely. For your "custom cover" near the stove, you could even repeat it a couple of times around the counter so it looks like a pattern.
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msw3113

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2019, 08:27:31 AM »
You take well-deserved pride in your work.  Nice job.
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djw2112

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Re: Crazy TV outlet
« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
Electrical done as well, everything works as it should now, power is comming from the main panel.  Now to clean up the trailer as its a total wreck with tools and stuff all over the place, but first a long nap lol

Thanks everyone for your suggestions and help on this project, i am finally done   :)
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