Gas with up to 10% ethanol.

Been on the road for the past month.  Been heading West and looking forward to reduced fuel prices.  Last fill in California before crossing into Nevada for regular was $3.699 at a local Costco.  In Carson City NV, regular gas at a Costco was $3.099.  As we headed West into Utah and Colorado I started seeing gas that contained up to 10% ethanol and in some cases only 91 octane didn't contain any ethanol.  I also started seeing 85 octane ratings.  In Wyoming, So Dakota and Minnesota, almost all stations are selling gas with up to 10% ethanol.  So a couple questions.

I was told that at higher elevations, 85 octane is fine for most engines.  Is this true?

When running gas with ethanol, the mpg will be a bit less.  If so, is it a worthwhile trade off?

Using ethanol in small engines, like my Honda eu2000i, is not a good idea.  If this is true, what should be done to protect the engine?

I dont know what they do in California, but in the rest of the USA, I believe that most stations sell gas that is up to 10% ethanol.  I have been running it in everything I have owned with a gas powered engine sine the 1980s, and cant say I have seen any negative mechanical effects.  Ethanol blends will lower your mileage some, but the ethanol will keep your fuel system much cleaner.

California law says they can mix in up to 15% ethanol without even telling you its in there.

It the water contained in ethanol that screws everything up,  cars marked with a "Flex Fuel" (85%Ethanol) badge on them have all stainless steel fuel lines just so the ethanol does't rust everything out. 

Gas stations in the mid west offer ethanol free gasoline just for lawn and garden equipment because ethanol gas will go bad in a couple weeks.

Ethanol  bad (

sightseers said:

California law says they can mix in up to 15% ethanol without even telling you its in there.

It the water contained in ethanol that screws everything up,  cars marked with a "Flex Fuel" (85%Ethanol) badge on them have all stainless steel fuel lines just so the ethanol does't rust everything out. 

Gas stations in the mid west offer ethanol free gasoline just for lawn and garden equipment because ethanol gas will go bad in a couple weeks.

Ethanol  bad (

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I have been hearing this for as long as there has been ethanol, and as I have said I have been using ethanol since the 80s without negative mechanical effects.  I have heard that if ethanol is allowed to dry out in a carburetor, that can cause problems, but I have never had that happen.  Back when we had a house, I would buy gas for the lawnmower in a five gallon can, and use it until it was gone. Many years it would sit all winter, and would be fine in the Spring.  The same with the car we leave in Iowa all winter.  Start it up in the Spring and go.  For those of us that can remember buying gas before ethanol, and sometimes in the winter your gas line would freeze because of some water in the tank?  There was a product called "Heet" that was sold to thaw out the gas line.  It's main ingredient was alcohol.

Google.. "Ethanol gas problems" ...and see how most everyone else feels about it.

Fuel injection engines don't have much problems with ethanol because of a closed air fuel system,... but anything with
an open air carburetor has issues because the ethanol alcohol attracts water and it gums and eats things up, (rubber seals, gaskets etc.)

Ethanol mix gas is why modern cars have stainless steel fuel lines.

I agree that ethanol is more corrosive that just regular gasoline, but it is this corrosiveness  that keeps your fuel system clean.

I know about all the problems people claim they have had because of ethanol, but I guess I have just been lucky these last 30 some years using ethanol in every gas engine I have owned without any problems.

Hi,

I bought gas one time at a local station before heading out on a small trip. I realize that conditions can change and effect milage but got over 500 miles in range on that tank. I returned home and had to make the same trip in the same vehicle a week or so later. I filled up the tank from the same gas station but this time only got 400 miles before having to stop. I believe it was the difference in ethanol in the tank. The first time was probably more pure gas than the second time. That is about a 12% or more difference. I believe that I paid close to the same price for the fuel but paid more in the long run with the ethanol.

States like Iowa, Illinois, Indiana and others who produce corn for distilling, probably want you to believe it's all the same but it really isn't. If I have to buy an extra tank of fuel or even two or three, then you are spending more for fuel. I have a son in law who claims it creates more problems than it solves. I'm sort of on the fence though.

On the topic of 85 octane at higher elevation, it may depend on the engine, but I can tell you I had issues with it in our coach's 8.1L Vortec engine on our trip to Yellowstone 2 years ago.  It was enough of an issue that I stopped at the next town after filling up with 85 octane to top off with 90-91 octane to boost the overall average, and from then on tried to buy or at least average something over 85 octane on that trip.

I thought you would be heading east from California to Utah. 

Robert K said:

I thought you would be heading east from California to Utah. 

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That was a test.  You passed. 

PJ Stough said:

I dont know what they do in California, but in the rest of the USA, I believe that most stations sell gas that is up to 10% ethanol.  I have been running it in everything I have owned with a gas powered engine sine the 1980s, and cant say I have seen any negative mechanical effects.  Ethanol blends will lower your mileage some, but the ethanol will keep your fuel system much cleaner.

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Apparently California doesn't consider a bit of ethanol an issue.  They don't indicate any ethanol on the pumps.  At least I don't recall seeing any obvious notification.  Only the E85 for certain vehicles has specific pumps. 

sightseers said:

California law says they can mix in up to 15% ethanol without even telling you its in there.

It the water contained in ethanol that screws everything up,  cars marked with a "Flex Fuel" (85%Ethanol) badge on them have all stainless steel fuel lines just so the ethanol does't rust everything out. 

Gas stations in the mid west offer ethanol free gasoline just for lawn and garden equipment because ethanol gas will go bad in a couple weeks.

Ethanol  bad (

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https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/transportation_data/ethanol.html  5.7% starting in 2003.  Increased to 10% in 2010.  Apparently it's a cleaner fuel which is California's justification for using it. 

E10 (aka gasahol) is sold everywhere, simply because federal law mandates that a large percentage of the gas produced by refineries be an E10 or greater blend.  If the pumps did not offer E10, 90+% of them would be without any fuel at all.

E10 has less energy content than pure gasoline, so fuel economy will be lower.  The impact will vary with the engine size and design, so a range is to be expected.  The EPA says that on average there is an approximate 3% loss of fuel economy (mpg), but naysayers report larger numbers, some as much as 10-15%.  Numbers that high seldom have credible documentation, but impacts of 5-6% have been shown in some tests.  So, chances are your vehicle will see somewhere between 3% and 6% loss of mpg.  That means you don't want to pay more than about 5% premium price for ethanol-free gasoline.

Octane is not related to fuel economy or ethanol. It's a measure of the anti-knock (pre-ignition) attribute of the fuel.  87 octane is considered standard for regular unleaded gasoline when used at sea level. At higher elevations, a lower octane provides equivalent results, so gasoline sold in high altitude regions is often 85 octane instead.  There is no valid reason to avoid using it at those altitudes, but it would be undesirable to carry the fuel down to sea level and use it there.

Alcohol absorbs water readily, so E10 gasoline is more susceptible to moisture contamination. That's not much of a concern in dry climates, but may be in humid climates or wet weather.  Pure alcohol is somewhat corrosive to soft metals and rubbers, but a 10% blend has little or no effect.  Cars built in the last 30 or so years are perfectly happy with E10 fuels and many of them have been designed for as much as E85 (85% alcohol) fuel.  Small engines (lawn mowers, weed eaters, etc) are much more sensitive to the effects of a alcohol-gas blend, so some people buy pure gasoline for their small engines.
There are some minor upsides to having alcohol in the fuel as well,but probably not enough to make much practical difference in everyday use. It's largely an academic debate.

Gary, that bit about altitude is all nice in theory until your engine starts knocking after filling up with 85 octane while driving west out of Cheyenne, WY.

garyb1st said:

https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/almanac/transportation_data/ethanol.html  5.7% starting in 2003.  Increased to 10% in 2010.  Apparently it's a cleaner fuel which is California's justification for using it.

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Gasoline has always had an octane booster additive of some kind since raw gasoline is around 80 octane.  The first was tetraethyl lead, then MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether) when unleaded gas was introduced, now ethanol.

The first two had rather severe environmental drawbacks.  Ethyl fell out of favor due to it's lead content and because it poisoned the catalytic converters now used to neutralize most of the engine's pollutants.  MTBE when it was found to have the ability to contaminate vast amounts of groundwater if it spilled or leaked into the ground.

Ethanol replaced MTBE and is by far the least toxic to the environment.

The fact that ethanol absorbs water is why I stick to big name gas stations. Rumor has it one owner here was seen with a garden hose running into the underground tanks probably to increase his profits. Years before the locals quit using that station because of repeated problems with having water in their gas, and now we know why. But it is on a highway and people passing thru would never suspect. Not sure how water affects octane 

Gary, that bit about altitude is all nice in theory until your engine starts knocking after filling up with 85 octane while driving west out of Cheyenne, WY.

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LOL, Isaac, if your engine doesn't like it, don't use it. Add some 87 or 89 octane fuel to the tank as soon as possible to bring the average octane up.  However, most cars run fine on 85 octane when at altitudes above 5000 ft. In fact, most engines these days have knock sensors and automatically retard the spark a bit to stop the knocking. You lose a bit of power but the engine runs happily.

Isaac-1 said:

On the topic of 85 octane at higher elevation, it may depend on the engine, but I can tell you I had issues with it in our coach's 8.1L Vortec engine on our trip to Yellowstone 2 years ago.  It was enough of an issue that I stopped at the next town after filling up with 85 octane to top off with 90-91 octane to boost the overall average, and from then on tried to buy or at least average something over 85 octane on that trip.

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my engine works hard and I want my engine to run at it's best....so I always buy the best fuel I can ...    Chevron 91 octane.

in Oklahoma they sell 4 grades of gasoline...85-89-91 and 'ethanol free'.
The price of "Ethanol free" gasoline is about $1.00 more per gallon....it's intended to be used in lawn/garden equipment,

The biggest problem I've had with the ethanol is in motorcycle carburetors.  If you let them sit with gas in the carbs, they will pit and be destroyed.  How do I know?  I've had two that suffered from the effects of sitting too long.  One was salvageable with a carb rebuild (it didn't sit quite as long).  The other one needed new carbs.  Gas weed trimmers are also susceptible to this.  But otherwise, no big issues.

Gary RV_Wizard said:

LOL, Isaac, if your engine doesn't like it, don't use it. Add some 87 or 89 octane fuel to the tank as soon as possible to bring the average octane up.  However, most cars run fine on 85 octane when at altitudes above 5000 ft. In fact, most engines these days have knock sensors and automatically retard the spark a bit to stop the knocking. You lose a bit of power but the engine runs happily.

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You lose power,  you push the engine harder to do the same work....so it gets less MPG... and more hard-use wear.

pay for it now ...or pay for it later...